Head, face and block shape

[Modern Jones]

On another post, Fedora(Steve), replied to a post about block shapes and faces. I though this was very interesting and important to everyone who is going to buy a new hat or rebock in the future.

Here are some snippets:

Marc's Raiders block and my old Raiders block and new Raiders block(CS block) are very similiar but just a little different too. His block is his "take" on the Raiders blockshape, and my blocks are my "take". But, they are more alike, than different.

I have noticed that Marc's hats look really, really good on folks who have full faces. But, there is a reason for this. He uses a round oval block, and I use a regular oval block. But his CS block is a regular oval, as that is what we used for the film. So he now has the ability to make round ovals and regular ovals Raider fedoras as well. I don't have that ability,as I do not own any round oval blocks. But most folks take a regular oval, or long oval. Alot of Oriental people have rounder heads, so the round ovals are really needed if you sell alot of hats to those fine folks.

I in turn, have long oval blocks along with my regular ovals. There are more long oval heads searching for hats, than round ovals, so it was a matter of economics with me when I first had my blocks made.

I just sent Marc a set of CS blocks, a couple of grand worth if you include the band blocks I had made for him. So, adding sets doesn't come cheap. I may eventually add a few in the common sizes, but until now, I have just adjusted the brim size on the sides to compensate for fuller faces. Of course, the best way to do that is to use a round oval blockshape, which is wider across the front.

Now, if you have a thin face, a round oval will look too wide for your face. It will look out of proportion. Gary White sold me a hat years ago, that apparently was made on a round oval block. It looked wider than my head, and I ended up reblocking it myself to get it trimmer looking, and thereby matching my face better.

Part of the struggle of buying a new fedora is knowing your size, but the other issue is the proportions of the crown and brim. Add this to what your face looks like and you may not be totally pleased, even though you ordered the exact dimensions of the ROTLA or TLC lids.

I think as Renderking, Bink and Michaelson have attested, they have the best hats for "them". And that's a perfect statement!

I know when I got my first Fed Deluxe, it didn't scale to my face very well. After the felt shrunk from outdoor weather and abuse, it looked a lot better. But the initial block was way too wide for my face.

My vintage AB is almost perfect except that my haircut is completely different after surgery (hat too big) and the brim is a touch too wide for my face. (I cringe at the thought of trimming it .... )

After reading a little bit of insight about the block shapes, it has made me really think about how I want my hat reblocked (for my face, etc.) and what I want for dimensions in my next AB.

I was going to go for Harrisons exact measurements from ROTLA, but my face is a little bit longer and thinner than Mr. Ford. (I think it's amazing what difference an 1/8" can make, right Steve?)

Thoughts, anyone?

Regards,


Modern Jones

[binkmeisterRick]

My vintage AB is almost perfect except that my haircut is completely different after surgery (hat too big) and the brim is a touch too wide for my face. (I cringe at the thought of trimming it .... )

BLASPHEMER! Yeah, you know better than to touch the brim of that vintage AB with any sharp impliment.

An eighth on an inch does make a big difference! I remember trimming the brim of my Federation. I took off about an eighth of an inch from around the brim and was amazed at the difference. Even crown/brim relations and shape can make a difference on a hat. My vintage AB has a very tall crown (very '20s) and a wide brim, but comparing the brim dimensions of this AB to my regular AB, I was surprised to find that my modern AB has a very slightly larger brim. I swore it was the other way around! The brim on the vintage hat appears to have a noticeably wider brim, though it's not the case.

Face shape does matter, too. A friend of mine commented how one of my fedoras looked really good on me, but when she wore it, it made her look like a cowboy. It was true, the same hat looked completly different on her.

So many of us want the perfect Indy hat. The only problem with that, as has been stated in the past, is that unless our head shape is exactly the same as Ford's, and the exact felt and block are used to make the hat, it's a tall order to expect to find!

[Kaplan]

I ordered an AB from Steve and an ABD from Marc. I happen to have a big fat 7 1/2 round oval head. My hats arrived within a week of each other. THEY WERE THE SAME EXACT DIMENSIONS. However since they were different block shapes, Marc's hat looked great on me, and Steve's didn't.
At first steve's AB gave the illusion of the brim being too wide, but I knew this couldn't be true because Marc's hat was the same brim size and looked great. I ended up sending the AB to Marc to have it reblocked.
I guess the point is, having a block shape that doesn't fit your face may make the brim look too big or too small. It really messes with you. I could have sworn the brim was too big, but it wasn't.

[Modern Jones]

Alright! Alright! I won't touch the brim! Jeeez Bink!

I think the thickness (or thinness) of the felt matters too. I have a vintage Stetson with some very thin dress felt and it looks a lot like TLC. The brim is 2 1/2" all the way around.

Kaplan, with your head, it had to shoot the brim out of the sides with a more round noggin! It's good in a way that you ordered 2 hats and were able to see the difference immediately.

Any more block suggestions from an of our resident hat makers or experiences from other gearheads? (Pun intended)


MJ

[Indy_Werner]

I have a round oval head and have noticed that on some regular oval hats, the sides will be pushed out and warp the brim funny. Would ordering a size up solve that problem somewhat?

[Dr.Seuss]

Mod J:

Very difficult to "dispute" the "hat lore," being espoused. I will note, that while a round oval hat, fitted to a long oval head, is potentially "unsightly" and uncomfortable, over time that round oval hat "becomes" a long oval, and thus achieves roughly the same look as if it were fitted differently/correctly in the inception. (At least, my experience.)

Thus, simply a matter of "having it now, or getting it later?"

Sincerely,

[jjkillin]

I actually can't stress this enough--my head size (WHATever it is!) doesn't really look good with the hat specs as are. I need to trim the brim down to size in order to get a decent look.

If buying from the vendors, talk to them and get some advice before buying, and after you get it, don't be afraid to modify your hat.

-s.r.

[Fedora]

have a round oval head and have noticed that on some regular oval hats, the sides will be pushed out and warp the brim funny. Would ordering a size up solve that problem somewhat?

Yeah, that is what happens when you put a round oval inside a regular oval.

Most people are regular ovals, and this is the most common blockshape used today. Stock hats, off the shelf hats, from any manufacturer are regular ovals. But, if you are a round oval, which is common with Oriental folks and even Amerindian folks, you really do need a round oval hat. Otherwise, your head will push out the sides, and this will give you instant taper, right out of the box.

My most frustrating hat was made for a guy whose head was wider than it was long. I spent alot of time trying to make him a hat that would warp, like Indy's does. I NEVER pulled it off! And I tried twice! I even made a round oval block just for him, as I was determined not to be whipped by a head shape. I failed. What I needed was a hat block that was wider than it was long, and I was incapable of making it. I am glad this is the exception rather than the rule.

I can fit a slight round oval fine, but I don't own a set of round oval blocks like Marc does. I just have reg ovals and long ovals which is 99.9 per cent of my business. Perhaps one day, I will anti up and spend a couple of grand on a set of round ovals. I just don't have many folks that need a round oval, as most Caucasians are reg ovals and long ovals. And that is most of my business. Fedora

[indy13]

I just emailed Steve with this very question for my own hat order. (BTW did you get my email?). I included a couple of pictures so Steve could see my face. The truth is I'm not sure what my face shape is. And I don't know whether my face is fuller or not. I guess it comes down to having sufficient references to make the comparison. I don't have that so that's part of the reason I decided to enlist the expertise of a guy like Steve rather than just buying an off the rack hat.

[rhboyd]

I was gonna do that too... now I'm all worried... is it going to look right?!?

is this something you WANT people doing Steve??
-r!

[GCR]

I just wanted to say that this is an excellent thread on a very significant topic. The importance of block shape, brim width, crown height should not be overlooked. A fedora is not a "one size fits all" hat, and that goes for the specs just as much as the actual size itself.

Getting a hat with the "Raiders" specs and getting a hat with specs that make it look "Raiders" on YOUR HEAD are two different things.

-GCR

[Modern Jones]

I just wanted to say that this is an excellent thread on a very significant topic. The importance of block shape, brim width, crown height should not be overlooked. A fedora is not a "one size fits all" hat, and that goes for the specs just as much as the actual size itself.

Getting a hat with the "Raiders" specs and getting a hat with specs that make it look "Raiders" on YOUR HEAD are two different things.

-GCR

Thanks GCR! It has been buggin me for a while now to not really understand what makes the Raiders proportions or just the fedora not look "right".

I know that Steve has been doing this the entire time with his customers, but I couldn't find a way to verbalize it until I saw his post (above).

What's stressful to someone who is going to buy their first hat or buy the right look for them is that it is very tough to see it until it's on your head!!!

There's a lot of emotion that goes into having a hat look and feel right. A proper fitting hat fits the man(woman ), not the other way around!



MJ

[cooncatbob]

Here's some interesting information.
Round oval is 5/8 inch longer than it is wide
Regular oval is 1 3/8 inches longer than it is wide
Long oval is 2 1/8 inches longer than it is wide
X-Long oval is 2 7/8 inches longer than it is wide
XX-Long oval is 3 5/8 inches longer than it is wide
XXX-Long oval is 4 3/8 inches longer than it is wide

My head is a little less then 1/2 way between a regular oval and a long oval.

[Indy_Werner]

It's wierd. My old medium sized Dorfman fit's me perfect and then when I put on the federation, my head's just a tad wide enough to affect the brim a little. Anyone know if the federation is a little narrower at all?

[scalawag]

Hi all

Let me say right off the bat I am a newbie here, been watching for a while but I think this is my first post. Love the disscussions and info contained on this board, and have bought some "gear" since finding it (regular Federations, wested etc...)
I really like the Indie "look" and style. Not too worried about the whole SA thing (see you have me using the jargon already!!). Keen to just keep this a hobby for now and not get too obsessed (like I have with things in the past). I think a "hobby" is the way I will enjoy it most.

Any way on to why I have posted....

I have two regualr federations (Brown and grey of course just to be sure ) in size 56 (I think that is size 7 US, 6 7/8 UK). Both were loose on the front and back, and tight on the sides (this is kind of opposite to what I hear folks saying about fitting regular oval hats on long oval heads).
Also the brown one (which I have had a bit longer and played with most to get the look I want) seems to have taken on a little taper, more so than the grey one. It is especially noticable when I am wearing it, not so noticable when it is not on my head.

Reading this thread makes me wonder now if I have a round oval head shape! If this is the case it may explain the difficulty I have had in keeping the straight sided look I suppose. Is it possible that one of my federations is more round oval than the other even thought they are the same size?

Paul

[Modern Jones]

Here's some interesting information.
Round oval is 5/8 inch longer than it is wide
Regular oval is 1 3/8 inches longer than it is wide
Long oval is 2 1/8 inches longer than it is wide
X-Long oval is 2 7/8 inches longer than it is wide
XX-Long oval is 3 5/8 inches longer than it is wide
XXX-Long oval is 4 3/8 inches longer than it is wide

My head is a little less then 1/2 way between a regular oval and a long oval.

This info is great cooncatbob! Very much needed and I don;t think that has been posted before (or in a really long time!).

Has anyone ever posted a "TO-DO" list when sizing your head to buy a hat? I know that HatsDirect and others have always had a sizing chart, but I think we are on to something here!?

Fedora, even though you get pics from customers and scale to them very accurately, if we get these types of measurements to you, Marc, Ron, etc. we get get a great fit the first time!


MJ

[rhboyd]

How do you measure the width? Calipurs? what's most accurate?

oy...
-r!

[Indiana MarkVII]

I've heard that a hat maker can use a 'conformer' to get the right size and shape for a custom hat. I've never used one yet. Does anyone know how accurate they are and if it is applicable to use in making an Indy fedora?

[cooncatbob]

How do you measure the width? Calipurs? what's most accurate?

oy...
-r!

Yep, I used a pair of outside calipers, of course since I have both a woodturning and machine lathe I have them. Probably not something that everybody has in their tool box.
Bob.
BTW. I'm sure glad I don't have a XXXL long oval head.

[Indiana G]

nothing wrong with that ccbob...._ has managed to live a normal life {indy g dives under the plymouth}

[Michaelson]

OH, heavens, G....don't take a pot shot at _, then dive under my Plymouth!

It ain't going to protect you, and I JUST replaced the fender he ripped off the LAST time somebody did that!!!

Regards! Michaelson

[Indiana G]

i'm just hoping you got the suspension up to snuff so that i'm safe when _ does his hulk - 2 handed hammer smash onto the roof

....they'll be nothing left of me except my shiney new aldens sticken out from the wreckage. i'm sure they'll find their way to bink's feet though

[binkmeisterRick]

Oh boy! New Aldens!

[Red Dust]

Would steve advise taking several pictures of our own head/face from different angles so he can determine what we need.... this is something i would feel more comfortable doing when the call for my hat comes so things are right the 1st time around??