Discussion - Kingdom of the Crystal Skull Jacket...

DeWayne · Post by **DeWayne** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:20 am

Thanks for the reply.

I'm anxious to see how this, "heavier" costume will look on film.

sebas · Post by **sebas** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:45 am

Fedora wrote:

I think this will be the best quality Indy jacket of all of the jackets. Film jackets that is. If not, I will be totally surprised. Bernie is one picky man. He's was very zeroed in on the outfit being very durable, as I think he felt an action film needed tough Indy outfits. The first thing he tells us is the gear had to hold up to.........well, several things. That seemed to be a priority to him.

Given everything that's been written about him, I do not doubt Bernie's thoroughness, professionalism and dedication in finding the "perfect jacket" for CS. Having said that, it's also true that he didn't know much about any gear prior to working on this film. In other words, I suspect that there are some nuances, that either he didn't pick up on, or didn't think were vital. That's inevitable, I guess.

Where am I going with this? Well (as I mentioned in another thread) I, for one, think that draping from lambskin is the very factor that makes the jacket distinctive. You cannot get that from cowhide. Also, the "flapping around" of the Raiders jacket, is something that really gave that jacket it's own personality: Like Indy, it was always "in over it's head." So, if the stunt jackets need to be a heavier hide to withstand a good beating, fine. But it's a real shame that the hero jacket isn't lambskin. Again, JMHO.

As _ mentioned in the other thread, Bernie -as with most costumers- wants to leave his signature or mark on what's on screen: not just merely copy what's been done previously. It's par for the course. And let's face it, it could have been a lot worse: redesign the entire jacket (and gear for that matter) and go with something more 50s...

Now that I have your attention, Steve: Did Harrison get to try on any "turned" fedoras? If so, what was the feedback? Just curious...

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:16 am

sebas wrote:Now that I have your attention, Steve: Did Harrison get to try on any "turned" fedoras? If so, what was the feedback? Just curious...

Actually, that's a great question for the hat section.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:40 am

8-[

G-MANN · Post by **G-MANN** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:59 am

sebas wrote: Did Harrison get to try on any "turned" fedoras? If so, what was the feedback? Just curious...

Yes, one that I know of. It was too small for him.

G-MANN

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:13 pm

Given everything that's been written about him, I do not doubt Bernie's thoroughness, professionalism and dedication in finding the "perfect jacket" for CS. Having said that, it's also true that he didn't know much about any gear prior to working on this film. In other words, I suspect that there are some nuances, that either he didn't pick up on, or didn't think were vital. That's inevitable, I guess.

Where am I going with this? Well (as I mentioned in another thread) I, for one, think that draping from lambskin is the very factor that makes the jacket distinctive. You cannot get that from cowhide. Also, the "flapping around" of the Raiders jacket, is something that really gave that jacket it's own personality: Like Indy, it was always "in over it's head." So, if the stunt jackets need to be a heavier hide to withstand a good beating, fine. But it's a real shame that the hero jacket isn't lambskin. Again, JMHO

Yeah, his knowledge was limited to the films(which he knew by heart) and his access to the warehouse with its costuming. And the hat he got from George.

He may have very well seen the lambskin drape, but sometimes form follows function with some costumers. This was a high action film he was gearing up to do. I think that figured in to alot of his choice of materials. And everyone that goes out in the elements and plans on sliding down rocks would never choose lambskin as the leather.

I think most of us judge everything with Raiders being the Rosetta stone. But face it, lamb is not the skin to use for a real action jacket. I tore mine the first day that I wore it, by snagging it. And when I recieved my first lamb jacket, my first impression was, it was for looks ONLY. I think some tradeoffs have to be made, and Bernie being from the Midwest, sees things in a Midwest sort of way. Midwest sensibility and all that. And I would imagine that each costumer wants their own little nuance in what they provide for the hero. If the new costume flops with the really anal fans, that still doesn't do away with the thought that he put into what he dressed Indy in. For me, I would have never put Indy in lamb to start with. There are better leathers to be used. I always saw the choice of lamb as stupid, but figured that is what they did with costumes. And I define costumes as clothing in which only appearance matters, with workmanship and choice of materials secondary. I think he approached it differently. He wanted real world materials on Indy, and materials that were durable. For that, I give him a thumbs up. The only Wested I ever kept was Pattersons old cowhide from Wested. One tough jacket, and my choice if I were gonna be sliding down stuff and snagging it often. To me lambskin is for jackets that are worn in the city, going out to eat in a casual cafe. And it makes great soft leather gloves. But I never saw a pair of lamb work gloves. Wrong leather for that!! But I understand how many get into the drape, or the way a jacket moves. For me, make em tough and let the drape fall where it will. But that is just me, and my idea of what a good jacket should be, if used like Indy used his. Fedora

Doug C · Post by **Doug C** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:44 pm

Lambskin can be tough, it comes in thicker skins than what Wested has traditionally used. As a matter of fact they even have a supposedly much thicker lamb right now, that is supposed to be really tough. The thing that bothers alot of people about the cow is that it often has a heavy and flat look. Though I must admit that I sort of like the look and texture of the CS prototype jacket (the one with the blue shirt wearing thin guy). However, if you were to put that jacket on Indy while he was running away from the Hovitos, where he crested the hill - with this jacket it wouldn't be the same shot at all. That's the sort of thing that should have been well considered IMO. Speilberg should have been concerned when he found out that Bernie was not very familier with the IJ movies.

Doug C

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:46 pm

One thing that always bothers me about the quest for the perfect Indy jacket is that people want it perfect out of the box/bag.

To achieve this usually means that the leather is getting thinner and thinner. Wested's lamb and Todd's calf are very thin. I think I remember Peter (and more recently Michealson) stating that the "old" lambskin Peter used was thicker. We are going in the wrong direction (or digging in the wrong spot, if you prefer.)

Some thick leathers can be broken in quite nicely and they will drape like cloth and still be relatively tough. I have a Wested cowhide that is heavier and softer than you would think possible. It drapes like cloth and is very comfortable. Of course it went through the washer, but that is not the point.

In an effort to achieve the perfect looking jacket, we are making other compromises. The really thin jackets just do not look right to me. They do not have enough weight behind them to hang right. Then we complain when they rip. Or shrink.

We are trying to copy a jacket that has been soaked, sanded, wire-brushed, scuffed and beat to heck by costumers. But few want to "ruin" their jackets and want it like that from the get-go. It ain't gonna happen. Say what you will about how a really light leather looks. It never feels like an adventurer's jacket. It feels like a costume piece.

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:04 pm

If the Raiders jacket were originally made from cowhide, you’d all probably laugh at the mere mention of lambskin. I think one factor that doesn’t get touched upon too often is the fact that Harrison Ford was thin for Raiders. He’s been muscular ever since. Let’s face it. Clothes look better on skinny people. That’s why models are all twigs. Cheers

sebas · Post by **sebas** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:07 pm

Point taken, Fedora. And you're right: it all very much depends on taste and perhaps a lot of us do tend to use Raiders as the Rosetta stone, as you point out. The "real world" materials that Bernie wanted makes a lot of sense. And let's face it: it's 21 years later (interal timewise), so things evolve.

But having said that, the iconic jacket "that started it all" was lambskin, and it looked terrific. The same can be said for the fedora and is probably the reason the vast majority of us love that Raiders lid. I mean, imagine -for example- if they wanted to go for a shorter crowned or more tapered style for CS?

We'd be "up in arms", no question...

Peter wrote:

As for Bernie Pollock, when he rang me in London one thursday night confessing he knew nothing about Indiana Jones and that he needed jackets, pants, shirt, hats etc I jumped

I guess I took that a bit too literally...

Anyway, I'm sure the gear in Indy Four is going to look fantastic. We've seen Harrison up close with the AB lid and it looks amazing. If the fedora is any indication of how the jacket will look on him, we have it made in the shade...

Cheers.

Doug C · Post by **Doug C** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:21 pm

There is video of Ford wearing the new jacket - check out the official website, it's been updated as pointed out by someone in the other forum section. I couldn't make much out of it though.

Doug C

VP · Post by VP » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:34 pm

Satipo · Post by **Satipo** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:37 pm

Is it just me, or does the jacket actually look quite soft in this picture? Perhaps there'll be more drape than we imagine.

sebas · Post by **sebas** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:38 pm

VP, thanks for posting the pic. I know this one... What I mean is a full body shot to analyze length, draping, back, etc.

Post by **Dr. Nebraska S.** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:48 pm

I am rather new here and I will readily admit that I do not know the details of the jackets nearly as well as most of you. And I love the look of the jackets from the other films (esp. Raiders). But IMHO, as someone who grew up on a small family farm/ranch which raised both sheep and cattle (and needed to wear a lot of durable clothing), I would trust cowhide over lamb for durability any day.

As for the "flapping" of the earlier jackets compared to this one, we have only a few photos (such as the one above) of the new jacket, let alone video of it in action. It's just one more thing I'm looking forward to seeing in the movie.

coronado3 · Post by **coronado3** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:29 pm

Good point, NS

Perhaps this cowhide is a thinner variety, like Todd's cowhide. The prototype is just that, and is made from a different leather... I believe _ said he thought the proto-jacket shown was vin. goat?

It will be all good, just as soon as we see that trailer in a COUPLE OF WEEKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

C3

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:43 pm

Speilberg should have been concerned when he found out that Bernie was not very familier with the IJ movies.

I would imagine Spielberg is well informed on who the good costumers are in Hollywood. I doubt he would have allowed someone who was not completely capable of doing Indy outfit, do it. And he had Ford and Bernie working together with help being only a phone call away if he felt he needed it. Face it only two other costumers worked on Indy's outfit. Deborah and Tony Powell. Powell started from mostly scratch, and we got the TOD fedora. He apparently NEVER even viewed the prior film!!! At least Bernie knew them by heart. And Bernie has been doing this job for close to 40 years. Yeah, I think they got the right guy, and if he used cowhide for the jackets, that just shows me he knew more about jackets than the other costumers did. My opinion only as I know many love the lamb. I just never was a fan. Why? Only because I think lamb is impractical for an action jacket. So, I will be one of a few who applauds the choice of leather for the new film. Now I won't watch the film and think Indy was nuts for choosing lambskin for protection. Remember. leather jackets while stylish, were probably first built for the durability, much in the same way a good boot is built for durability. Lambskin boots anyone?

But really, I never was very anal about the Indy jackets. So, I am not on the same wave length as the guys here that are. My choice of leather jackets has always been the A-2. And you better not make one of those in lamb!! That is sacreligious!!

Fedora

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:22 pm

You are correct about the leather jackets being built for durability first. I am not really clear on the dates, and I am not the one to answer this correctly - you would need a member of the Vintage Leather Jacket forum to answer this. They can probably break it down to the exact date and time as well as a pattern number if needed. But even though I am not the one to answer, here goes anyways

I would say just after 1900 that jacket was brought into the military - more than likely overseas. The US got involved in issuing leather flight jackets around 1917. High collars, fur-lined and cool-looking right up to the A-2's, which are the best-looking military jackets of all time.

I think that the first motorcycle jackets started in the mid-1920's - and again, for protection. Thick heavy cowhide, steerhide or horsehide was used. Later additional "armor" was added in key areas.

Fashion probably happened in the 1950s, courtesy of Marlon Brando, James Dean, et al.

There is one last industry that deals with leather and whips and it is not Indiana Jones...

I agree that Indy would have worn a tougher jacket. Imagine him being chased through the forest by the Hovitos and he keeps snagging the lambskin on branches. Cowhide can be soft as I stated before and if Tony Nowak has prewashed the leather, I imagine it is very comfortable to wear, while still being thick. I think that is the right choice. I would just like to see it be a lot darker in color. I love that brown/black look.

Doug C · Post by **Doug C** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:35 pm

Yea your probably right about most of that Fedora but everyone knows the cowhide is tough (that's been pointed out alot lately) and most people are also aware that there are stronger leathers still (kangaroo, buffalo, etc..) Heck I still want a lambstouch which is supposed to be the best of both worlds.. but the thing is, Raiders is the movie that got most members here into the gear thing (dare I say) and in particular I'd say that most folks here love the "Raiders" jacket (and the Raider's hat BTW, but that's your expertise)... they may not know why they like it most at first, but it's because it posessed that "something". Also, it's because they did it right the first time. I'd like to point out that I had no clue what leather was used in Raiders when I started this little obsession, I just knew I had to find a jacket just like Indy's, only after I came here did I find out that it was Lambskin. I do think that the characteristics of the Lamb that was originally used and the lambskin that's (usually) used today are world apart and probably only remoted related... it used to be thicker and (probably more importantly) was vegetable tanned. So I personally feel the practicallity of cow wasn't as important as what the jacket looked like on screen. BUT (with that said) it doesn't look half bad in the picture that was posted of Ford wearing it, so who knows

Doug C

Satipo · Post by **Satipo** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:43 pm

Fedora wrote:My choice of leather jackets has always been the A-2. And you better not make one of those in lamb!! That is sacreligious!! Fedora

Funny thing is I've got one of these made by Avirex in antique lambskin. Had it since 1990 and it's one of the toughest jackets I have. But it is quite a thick, heavy hide.

Shtick · Post by **Shtick** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:52 pm

Just want to throw in my two cents to the discussion. As far as costumes not matching from film to film, why should they, realisticly? I mean, Indy turns his gun over to Belloq right off, yet has the same model (same gun, even) when he talks to Marcus at his house. I would not be surprised if it was a different gun entirely.

How many times do you think Indy has to replace his gear? Surely, he can't be wearing the same hat and jacket through the course of all 4 adventures. We never saw that Raiders bullet hole in Last Crusade, did we?

Maybe Indy decided on a "look" he liked, and tried to stay within those guidelines when he purchased his own gear. I doubt in the '30s that you could buy two fedoras that were identical in every way, and look even close after all the beatings they took.

Maybe I'm way off here, though. I'm sure I'll hear about it.

CM · Post by CM » Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:32 pm

Trying to develop a logic around the various costumes has got to be futile. Indy is a fictional character and like any superhero he has a certain look which varies a bit with each adventure. James Bond changes his face every few years and so it appears does Indy's costume. Maybe one day someone will direct an Indy film with another actor in the lead. Logic is immaterial, it's fantasy and, hopefully, a lot of fun.

Cheers - CM

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:52 pm

I'm not saying this has happened with Indy. But with other franchises there is a conscious effort by the production/art team and director to slightly change the look and feel of the character(s), eg. The Spider-Man films, Batman Films, Even the prequel trilogy. Partly they are to put across the idea of the character developing ie Ewan Mcgregor aging from a young jedi to a jedi master. Or it can be just Spider-man in different suits! Did anyone notice that the red-blue suit in Spider-man 3 was slightly different to the previous movie? It was, and you may not have noticed it consiously but you'd probably be able to tell one from another if put in front of you. (amongst slight changes to the eye shape and suit, the frame around the eye changed from the traditional black to silver.)

There are obvious reasons for these changes:

1) To keep the characters looking fresh.

2) To underline to the audience that this IS a new movie

3) To allow for refreshed marketed items, new imagery, sculpts for figures etc. (Yes, sounds cynical, but that's a fact).

Cowboy · Post by **Cowboy** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:22 pm

I do not care about it changing from movie to movie....I have grown to love the Raiders outfit due to all the folks here rubbing off on me. That said, other than the horrible TOD Fedora, so what if it changes some what between the 4? It has been said by many that styles do change with time be it ever so slightly.... I have worn Carhart coats for years and even my favorite stand by change the lining and cuffs time to time.

I will go on the record and say I think the new coat looks very rugged, just like any adventurer would want it to be. Will I go out and get one???? Who knows. Right now I am more than pleased with my G&B Goat (Which I tossed into the washer last week with AMAZING results) and am doing my best to give it a beating.

ANZAC_1915 · Post by **ANZAC_1915** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:46 pm

To me it is not about variation, it is about what "looks like Indy".

I am sure I will eventually get used to the new gear. The shirt bugs me the most. I can get used to the jacket in time.

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:47 pm

We also hear that Ford, his wife, Spielberg and his dog, they all have an opinion about how the jacket will look

That was HILARIOUS!!!

I really got a good laugh out of it. Thanks!

DeWayne · Post by **DeWayne** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 6:46 am

_ wrote:I don't know... From that pic, my gut says I don't like it... JMO...

I agree, it basically looks like he's wearing one of the jackets I mentioned earlier.... My opinion....

Satipo · Post by **Satipo** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:20 am

pschtyckque wrote:Just want to throw in my two cents to the discussion. As far as costumes not matching from film to film, why should they, realisticly? I mean, Indy turns his gun over to Belloq right off, yet has the same model (same gun, even) when he talks to Marcus at his house. I would not be surprised if it was a different gun entirely.

How many times do you think Indy has to replace his gear? Surely, he can't be wearing the same hat and jacket through the course of all 4 adventures. We never saw that Raiders bullet hole in Last Crusade, did we?

Maybe Indy decided on a "look" he liked, and tried to stay within those guidelines when he purchased his own gear. I doubt in the '30s that you could buy two fedoras that were identical in every way, and look even close after all the beatings they took.

Maybe I'm way off here, though. I'm sure I'll hear about it.

For what it's worth, to lend credibility to the various changes to his costume in the fictional Indiana Jones world, I try to see it as though he has certain items custom made by a tailor/hatter/craftsman to his specifications, particularly the jacket. I don't like the idea that his jacket could be an off-the-rack design that others might own in his time. I prefer to think that it's made to his preferences, that Indy requested certain features for functionality, e.g. like requesting the action pleats to enable the jacket to function well with the bag, whip and gun belt - in the same way that the costume designer did in the real world.

So, for me, any costume changes that occur in Indy's world are down to his tailor's and Indy's attempts at improving certain aspects based on Indy's experiences in previous adventures and his changing fashion tastes. That kind of explains why his hat looks better in Raiders than TOD, and why his jacket looks tougher in LC than Raiders. JMO.

sebas · Post by **sebas** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:50 am

KT Tempar wrote:

There are obvious reasons for these changes:

1) To keep the characters looking fresh.

2) To underline to the audience that this IS a new movie

3) To allow for refreshed marketed items, new imagery, sculpts for figures etc. To underline to the audience that this IS a new movie

I see your point about Spider-man, but in terms of IJ, I can't really agree with this. I mean, 99% of the general movie-going audience is certainly going to think Indy looks exactly the same as in the other movies in terms of his "costume." I'd even go so far as to say that even if they decided go with a the tapered ToD fedora look...it would be missed on the vast majority of people.

Judging from the images we've seen so far, in terms of Indy's overall appearance, the only thing that's going to look different to them is Harrison Ford's age.

Shtick · Post by **Shtick** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:02 am

Satipo wrote:For what it's worth, to lend credibility to the various changes to his costume in the fictional Indiana Jones world, I try to see it as though he has certain items custom made by a tailor/hatter/craftsman to his specifications, particularly the jacket. I don't like the idea that his jacket could be an off-the-rack design that others might own in his time. I prefer to think that it's made to his preferences, that Indy requested certain features for functionality, e.g. like requesting the action pleats to enable the jacket to function well with the bag, whip and gun belt - in the same way that the costume designer did in the real world.

So, for me, any costume changes that occur in Indy's world are down to his tailor's and Indy's attempts at improving certain aspects based on Indy's experiences in previous adventures and his changing fashion tastes. That kind of explains why his hat looks better in Raiders than TOD, and why his jacket looks tougher in LC than Raiders. JMO.

Maybe Indy was a member of FedoraGear.com...

http://www.theraider.net/films/crusade/ ... ts/045.jpg

As far as the personal tailor route, Indy is shown wearing his signature jacket on the cover of all the novels, the first of which takes place in his college years. I doubt he would have a tailor back then.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:04 am

sebas wrote:KT Tempar wrote:

There are obvious reasons for these changes:

1) To keep the characters looking fresh.

2) To underline to the audience that this IS a new movie

3) To allow for refreshed marketed items, new imagery, sculpts for figures etc. To underline to the audience that this IS a new movie
I see your point about Spider-man, but in terms of IJ, I can't really agree with this. I mean, 99% of the general movie-going audience is certainly going to think Indy looks exactly the same as in the other movies in terms of his "costume." I'd even go so far as to say that even if they decided go with a the tapered ToD fedora look...it would be missed on the vast majority of people.

Judging from the images we've seen so far, in terms of Indy's overall appearance, the only thing that's going to look different to them is Harrison Ford's age.

I see how it might sound fanciful. However, the points I raise above are not a fan's supposition. I know this for a fact. I have worked on merchandised materials in conjunction with, Lucasfilm, Warners, Fox, Sony, Marvel, The BBC, etc, etc. I've been subjected to the pie charts!

An awful lot of number crunching goes on behind the scenes, demographics and market shares, what other studios are doing this year, it all ends up quite scary and clincal.

Would tickle you to know that the marketing seminars Lucas holds are called Summits?

As for the original Indy trilogy I agree that most of the changes to the costume appear to have been accidental, but I would not underestimate the filmakers. There is of course a necessity to differentiate each film, be it through costume or just some subtle 'difference' in the way the imagery from the film is released and presented.

michaelb · Post by **michaelb** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:14 pm

Just want to throw in my two cents to the discussion. As far as costumes not matching from film to film, why should they, realistically? I mean, Indy turns his gun over to Belloq right off, yet has the same model (same gun, even) when he talks to Marcus at his house. I would not be surprised if it was a different gun entirely.

How many times do you think Indy has to replace his gear? Surely, he can't be wearing the same hat and jacket through the course of all 4 adventures. We never saw that Raiders bullet hole in Last Crusade, did we?

Maybe Indy decided on a "look" he liked, and tried to stay within those guidelines when he purchased his own gear. I doubt in the '30s that you could buy two fedoras that were identical in every way, and look even close after all the beatings they took.

My thoughts exactly... Concerning all the gear.

His tailor...

I think that Professor knows what he wants and replaces them when needed. Keeps to a particular style and says, "Just what I need", or "Good enough".

All his gear goes through so much that he retains consistency, but not to the point that we do.

Not that there is anything wrong with that...

MB

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:25 pm

Funny thing is I've got one of these made by Avirex in antique lambskin. Had it since 1990 and it's one of the toughest jackets I have. But it is quite a thick, heavy hide.

Now the question is. Are you certain it is lamb?

There once was a chart here, or a list of the durability of the various leathers. If I recall correctly, lamb was at the bottom of the list as far as durability.

For me, give me horse or give me goat. But I do like full grained cowhide leather in my boots. If you ever owned a pair of Pivetta hiking boots, you will discover just how tough cowhide can be. I have 2 pairs of Pivettas, both made in the 70's and they will outlast me. Full grained cowhide and lined in leather as well. You can't wear them out! But I digress, as usual.

Fedora

Doug C · Post by **Doug C** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:45 pm

Steve I believe his A-2 is Lamb only because I too have a very thick and very tough jacket, mines from US Wings (Indy style). I'd say it's definately in the same league strength wise as the cow hide A-2 style jacket that I have. None of the other Lambskin jackets I've had are the same. My personal opinion is that this leather is very under-rated. US Wings' gives a description of it on there website and some pictures - http://www.uswings.com/ta2.asp#SSLambA2.

You know before the A-2 was created they used to make the A-1 which was most often produced in capeskin which is definately on par with lambskin. Plenty of other hides they could have specified and others would have been more practical too for sure.

Doug C

PETER · Post by **PETER** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:04 pm

Spot the difference in styling of the new (inset) and old below?

Did Tony N come to Wested? Why is he in Pete's office?
More to the point why is wearing H F's new jacket?

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:14 pm

Steve I believe his A-2 is Lamb only because I too have a very thick and very tough jacket, mines from US Wings (Indy style). I'd say it's definately in the same league strength wise as the cow hide A-2 style jacket that I have. None of the other Lambskin jackets I've had are the same. My personal opinion is that this leather is very under-rated. US Wings' gives a description of it on there website and some pictures - http://www.uswings.com/ta2.asp#SSLambA2.

You know before the A-2 was created they used to make the A-1 which was most often produced in capeskin which is definately on par with lambskin. Plenty of other hides they could have specified and others would have been more practical too for sure.

Hey, I will trust you Doug. As I said, I am out of my element here in the jacket section, and it probably shows! Let me get back to where I belong.

And leave this discussion to the guys that know. Regards, Fedora

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:04 pm

any costume changes that occur in Indy's world are down to his tailor's and Indy's attempts at improving certain aspects based on Indy's experiences in previous adventures and his changing fashion tastes.

I agree, Satipo. That's a logical supposition, to include the notion that Indy might stock up on favorite garments for future use. He probably has a number of surplus jackets, hats, whips, boots, and clothing to use for backup gear as the need arises throughout his adventures.

Castor Dioscuri · Post by **Castor Dioscuri** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:05 pm

One thing that I don't understand is why some people argue that the gear used in Indy IV should be real-world worthy... I don't intend any offence to any of you that think this, but isn't the whole point of a movie wardrobe to look good?

I mean, sure Cow is tougher than Lamb, but Lamb in general looks better than Cow on screen, IMO. Same thing for the fedora... I mean, if we were to have real-world-accurate gear, do you all seriously would believe that Indy's fedora would survive him throughout ONE movie... let alone the trilogy? I know, I know, some folks here believe that Indy buys the same clothes over and over again, but honestly, do you all think Indy was an obsessive-compulsive?

If Indy WERE to use a real-world-worthy fedora, he'd probably ditch his trademark fedora for a more Cowboy-ish lid with a ton of stiffener, or maybe something in leather, like Crocodile Dundee...

I just had to say that, since I've been rather puzzled at how people seem to want Indy IV to have real-world gear for Indy IV. I understand that us gearheads sometimes want tougher gear to stand up to real world adventures, but to be straightforward, Indy exists in a fictional universe, where the same rules don't necessarily apply. In his world, the best looking materials just happen to be the toughest, and the fact that movies are supposed to capture the imagination AND the eye seem to be lost on many of us who've been 'hardened' (so to speak) by our own quests for the perfect gear.

Well, that's just my two cents, and I hope I'm not stepping on anybody's toes, as that's certainly not my intention.

Ozraptor · Post by **Ozraptor** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:13 pm

That was a rather cryptic post, Peter! Can you expand on that?

I like the old collar more; it has more character. The new one looks too much like a shirt collar in my opinion.

Also, the leather definitely looks too thick for on screen use. But meh, it's the guy inside it that people are going to be focussing on! People seem to forget that.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:19 pm

I'm waiting to see a full body shot of Ford in the new costume before making a judgment. I believe Nowak made the jacket for "Terminator 3," and I thought it looked fantastic.

Jack

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:27 am

If Indy WERE to use a real-world-worthy fedora, he'd probably ditch his trademark fedora for a more Cowboy-ish lid with a ton of stiffener, or maybe something in leather, like Crocodile Dundee...

Here is my silly take(and I can be silly) on that. In TLC we see Indy as a teen in the West. Now, the cowboys would happily spend a years salary just to own a good hat, a beaver hat, and a good pair of boots. The hats were very important. And they would wear them, until they literally fell apart. So, in my mind, when Indy got his first fedora after he wore the one out that Fedora put on his hand and creased in that fedora style as he put it on, Indy would have went with a beaver fur hat. Surely he learned that from being out west!!

On the stiff cowboy hat, really, the early western hats, or staple hats were soft hats. Not the stiff things you see today. I think Hollywood had something to so with making the cowboy hats stiff. It is ironic really, that early dress hats, were hard and stiff, initially, and western hats were soft and supple. Then dress hats became soft, the self conforming hat, and later on the western hats became stiff. They swapped places!!

Fedora

Michigan Smith · Post by **Michigan Smith** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 9:29 am

PETER wrote: Did Tony N come to Wested? Why is he in Pete's office?
More to the point why is wearing H F's new jacket?

Maybe this new company doesn't want or can't handle the production of these replica jackets and wants to work something out with Wested? The new companys website is pretty weak right now.

ANZAC_1915 · Post by **ANZAC_1915** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:23 am

Ozraptor wrote:I like the old collar more; it has more character. The new one looks too much like a shirt collar in my opinion.

Also, the leather definitely looks too thick for on screen use. But meh, it's the guy inside it that people are going to be focussing on! People seem to forget that.

In defense of lamb, providing the Hovitos aren't firing darts at it, I think they'll take a surprising amount of abuse for the thickness (or is it thin-ness?)

But here is something to think about:

This was certainly a major inspiration for everyone on the film (IMHO) and look at how that jacket drapes and bends, would cow or HH look like that?

PS yes I thought the original A2's were lamb too.

Cassidy · Post by **Cassidy** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:30 pm

Obscurity? You've taken the lid off the Ark my man and we're all the better for it.

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:11 pm

Castor Dioscuri wrote:One thing that I don't understand is why some people argue that the gear used in Indy IV should be real-world worthy... I don't intend any offence to any of you that think this, but isn't the whole point of a movie wardrobe to look good?

I can only speak for myself because I'm only a world renouned expert of my own opinion (unless it's an opinion about decorating the house or doing some new improvement... then my wife is apt to change my opinon with out prior notice. That's a bride's perogitive...)

I actually use some items of IndyGear or Retro-Wear on a daily basis (I'm wearing paratrooper boots and a military web-belt with my other retro-esque clothes that I have on as we speak/write...) so I want the things that I wear to not only look "fantabulous" but also work as well as modern counterparts. I expect some stuff to work even better then the modern stuff in some occasions.

So for me, when I see Jones fighting with a Mark7 bag on, I know how that feels because I've been through some hairy stuff while hiking and my own Mark7 bag. I know that it can get in the way while running or even walking. But the practicality of that bag far exceeds the moments when it's in the way.

Be cause I use other stuff on a regular basis, I know what works and what doesn't. But for me, this isn't just about dressing the whole period and not just one character. "IndyGear" happens to be the first best place on where to find good fedoras.

Post by **Mike** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:02 am

VP wrote:

First thing that jumped out to me about this pic...

The bag strap is outside the jacket.

Odd.

Satipo · Post by **Satipo** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:14 am

Mike wrote:First thing that jumped out to me about this pic...

The bag strap is outside the jacket.

Odd.

Another example of real world function over on-screen aesthetics?

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:50 am

Maybe we will have a new screen accurate way to wear the bag. Either that, or Indy forgot how to put it on.

Toldog07 · Post by **Toldog07** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:43 pm

The hat looks so LC there it's not even funny. What happened to the hybrid?

Post by **Dr. Nebraska S.** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:52 pm

You'll find discussion of the fedora for this particular picture in the Fedora section:
viewtopic.php?t=24485&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0