CS = Rotla ? not even close

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:45 am

http://www.indyjacket.co.uk/Pollark%20Sample.jpg

(Mod edit: Changed to link due to size of image.)

If the above jacket is the movie makers idea of how the IJ jacket should look, or how the Raiders jacket looked, then... I rest my case. I really don't think the intention was to recreate the Rotla jacket.

I mean, leather color, roomy arms, zip doesn't extend to bottom, double stitch shoulders, too short maybe... (in two words "not SA" in Raiders terms at least) Is this what Bernie wanted???

I guess they nailed the collar tho.

Now if the jacket in the first pic was made by leather as in the second pic, (by Tony Nowak of course), would you buy it?

djd · Post by **djd** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:55 am

No, I have to say I prefer the Raiders jacket- and the ToD jacket too- rather than this one.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:09 am

Platon,

Indeed he was not looking to make a Raiders jacket.

Seems from what we have seen that it is mostly a LC route they have taken.

Hat style, jacket style, even colour of the web belt.

DeWayne · Post by **DeWayne** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:52 am

From that picture of the CS jacket on the hanger, it has a very heavy look to it. Reminds me of my '01 Disney jacket, a lot.

sebas · Post by **sebas** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:37 am

Now if the jacket in the first pic was made by leather as in the second pic, (by Tony Nowak of course), would you buy it?

In a word: no. Personally, I think the above jacket looks pretty sub par. The hide, the color and the cut (espcially the arms!). It looks like on of those "off the rack" faux bomber jackets you see at Burlington Coat Factory. There's absolutely nothing distinctive about it.

It's a pity that Bernie, Harrison et al didn't realize that the draping of the lambskin is what really made the original Raiders jacket so visually attractive and distinctive. That, and the right cut too, of course (which seems slightly baggy here, but might be the hide).

Also, one the great characteristics of the Raider's jacket is that it was always "flapping around" (temple run, Flying wing fight, etc). That was part of the jacket's personality! To me it was synonymous with Indy.

An analogy (albeit distant) can be made with the Vader helmet in "Sith." They re-desinged it to get it "perfect," totally symetrical but the end result was so clinical, that it looked far worse than the slightly lopsided hero helmet from the original trilogy. It seems that they've done something along those lines with the CS jacket. Anyway, I digress.

We'll just have to see what the final jacket looks like on screen. Here's hoping it looks great.
Cheers, guys.

ANZAC_1915 · Post by **ANZAC_1915** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:58 am

sebas wrote: In a word: no. Personally, I think the above jacket looks pretty sub par. The hide, the color and the cut (espcially the arms!). It looks like on of those "off the rack" faux bomber jackets you see at Burlington Coat Factory. There's absolutely nothing distinctive about it.

It's a pity that Bernie, Harrison et al didn't realize that the draping of the lambskin is what really made the original Raiders jacket so visually attractive and distinctive. That, and the right cut too, of course (which seems slightly baggy here, but might be the hide).

Also, one the great characteristics of the Raider's jacket is that it was always "flapping around" (temple run, Flying wing fight, etc). That was part of the jacket's personality! To me it was synonymous with Indy.

Totally agree on the draping, even though I agree with the wonkiness of the pleating etc. and that you can build a better functional jacket, to me that draping does define the hero's costume.

To be honest, except for the hat, in all the pictures of HF in KotCS, it looks to me like he's wearing "close enough" fan gear, including the jacket. Now it may be this is the look the film makers wanted, and indeed where they want the costume to evolve to, but my Raiders lambskin wested and NH Raiders pants, shirt and belt, look closer to LC than the KotCS gear. Just my opinion.

The color of the shirt looks like it is an LL Bean, and the jacket looks like it was bought at Eddie Bauer. Maybe the intent was to move the look a little towards the 50's. I don't know.

But the hat looks great.

In other news, I was at the ballet last night with my daughter and ran into an elderly lady (in her 80's...) wearing an Indy jacket. It had straps on the side, pleat on the back, same pockets, collar etc as Indy. Actually it looked like an LC jacket in terms of the collar. I remarked "we almost have the same jacket". She said "I bought it from Eddie Bauer, the straps are always coming undone".

Anyway, THAT jacket she was wearing, looked more like a Wested LC than the KotCS jacket in the pictures. Quite SA for an Eddie Bauer jacket, anyone know the history there?

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:03 am

It's a pity that Bernie, Harrison et al didn't realize that the draping of the lambskin is what really made the original Raiders jacket so visually attractive and distinctive. That, and the right cut too, of course (which seems slightly baggy here, but might be the hide).

Also, one the great characteristics of the Raider's jacket is that it was always "flapping around" (temple run, Flying wing fight, etc). That was part of the jacket's personality! To me it was synonymous with Indy

I agree TOTALLY.

Something to keep in mind - every wardrobe designer wants to leave their own mark on a film. That's why nobody ever seems to go back to what worked. Circumstance also drove this in our case, but Bernie was very clear he wanted this to be a singular jacket - in his opinion and Fords it is better than the others. Guess I'll hold final judgement until I see the movie...

That's like filming "The Dukes" with a different car.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:05 am

Hey, Platon, do you mind resizing the top pic? I keep having to scroll back and forth to read the thread. Thanks.

sebas · Post by **sebas** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:06 am

_ wrote:

Something to keep in mind - every wardrobe designer wants to leave their own mark on a film. That's why nobody ever seems to go back to what worked. Circumstance also drove this in our case, but Bernie was very clear he wanted this to be a singular jacket - in his opinion and Fords it is better than the others. Guess I'll hold final judgement until I see the movie...

Well, after all that trouble they went through, their saying "it's better than the others" is par for the course. (Also Bernie trying to put his "signature" here is a big factor, as you say. They never suscribe to the "less is more" or "If it ain't broke..." school of thought, do they?) But it's just like the makers of the "Sith" vader helmet saying they're version helmet was better than the used in "Empire". Well...they were wrong. But like you say _, we'll have to see.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:16 am

binkmeisterRick wrote:Hey, Platon, do you mind resizing the top pic? I keep having to scroll back and forth to read the thread. Thanks.

Time for that wide screen monitor Bink!

sebas · Post by **sebas** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:19 am

ANZAC_1915 wrote

Maybe the intent was to move the look a little towards the 50's. I don't know.

Yes, it is quite a jump from 1938 to 1957. 19 years. However, clearly the gear hasn't "evolved" with the times since it's virtually identical to that of the 30s (especially so, to the untrained eye). Are we to assume that Indy is buying his gear at a store that is trapped in time and never changes it's inventory? Maybe. That seems a bit silly, though (especially in the fedora department) In my view, it's Indy hanging on to his old gear from his younger days.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:21 am

Well, as usual, I'm reserving any judgment one way or the other until I see it on Ford's back and in action on the big screen.

Judging the jacket based on a still shot of a guy standing with one on, and one of it hanging on a hanger just doesn't 'stroke my bubble' as my niece used to say when she was 5.

Regards! Michaelson

coronado3 · Post by **coronado3** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:24 am

Concerning the pic above of the proto-jacket that it may look baggy because the man wearing it isn't the same build as HF. The model appears very thin whereas HF is stockier and more muscular...

This jacket above looks very much like my old cowhide wings/cooper (except for the press studs) which is cool for me! I'm almost SA!!!!!!

C3

Doug C · Post by **Doug C** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:04 am

So, Bernie is the equivalent to what Deb Nadoolman was in Raiders, right.. costume coordinater or whatever? So who had this job during the last movie, LC ? I thought the costume stunk on that one too, in comparison to the other two movies. Is it just a coincidence that Harrison's personal stylist is also the costume coordinator or what? It's interesting that Peter reported that Bernie contacted him and admitted not knowing anything about Indiana Jones....how could he possibly be incharge of Ford's look and never even have watched the Indiana Jones movies. I'm giving Peter the benefit of the doubt on that comment, but with a grain of salt too.

Doug C

djd · Post by **djd** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:21 am

The new jacket looks too stiff to me- like something a middle aged guy might buy to look 'cool'. The Raiders and Temple jackets looked really lived in rather than boutique jackets that had been distressed a bit... I loved the crumpled sleeves on the Temple jackets. This is entirely too smart

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:26 am

Hey, Platon, do you mind resizing the top pic? I keep having to scroll back and forth to read the thread. Thanks.

Can't do that. The photo is hosted on Wested website.

The new jacket looks too stiff to me- like something a middle aged guy might buy to look 'cool'. The Raiders and Temple jackets looked really lived in rather than boutique jackets that had been distressed a bit...

Yeah, it will look stiff on CS, trust me.

djd · Post by **djd** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:33 am

I suspect you're right about CS. It won't stop it being a good film if it is one but a minor disapointing feature never the less.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:41 am

Kt Templar wrote:
binkmeisterRick wrote:Hey, Platon, do you mind resizing the top pic? I keep having to scroll back and forth to read the thread. Thanks.
Time for that wide screen monitor Bink!

I'll PM you the address where you can send that monitor.

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:48 am

Have you tried just sitting closer to your current one, Bink?

A much cheaper option.

Regards,
Swindiana

VP · Post by VP » Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:49 am

PLATON wrote:
Hey, Platon, do you mind resizing the top pic? I keep having to scroll back and forth to read the thread. Thanks.
Can't do that. The photo is hosted on Wested website.

How about changing it to a link then? I don't mind, my monitor can easily take it but the majority of people still have only 1024x768.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:53 am

binkmeisterRick wrote:
Kt Templar wrote:
binkmeisterRick wrote:Hey, Platon, do you mind resizing the top pic? I keep having to scroll back and forth to read the thread. Thanks.
Time for that wide screen monitor Bink!
I'll PM you the address where you can send that monitor.

That's ok I'll email you one.

junior · Post by **junior** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:11 pm

Like Michaelson, I don't want to pass exclusive judgment now, but, if what I see above is the jacket for KCS, this really looks alot like the thing I ordered back in 1991 from the LucasFilm Fan club brochure. Yes, it will look better on screen of course and if it functions better via sleeves, whatever the collar caper is all about, pleats, etc then it'll have that going for it.

My quick assesment with no pics of it on Ford is that the Indy 4 jacket just doesn't look "Indy" enough. That was an odd sentence to type.

We'll see,

junior

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:14 pm

junior wrote: My quick assesment with no pics of it on Ford is that the Indy 4 jacket just doesn't look "Indy" enough. That was an odd sentence to type.

We'll see,

junior

Not really, junior. What IS odd is that I totally understand what you mean!

Regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:19 pm

I'll take the donkey, then.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:03 pm

i hate it when the change the chemistry too much in movies:

1. spiderman not having mechanical web shooters
2. james bond wearing omega instead of rolex....where's moneypenny and q in the latest movie?
3. anakin's lightsaber looks completely different in episode 3 than how it appeared in episode 4
4. the movie wolverine is too tall and not as stout as the comic wolverine....i've gotten over this one as hugh jackman did a great job.

...stuff like that. continuity....there's a large movie-going poplulation that is asking for continuity. on the flipside, most of the movie-going population wouldn't even bat an eyelash if you switched out ford's jacket with an a2, as long as its brown

the minor tweaks in the design will be mostly unnoticeable between LC and CS to the layman indyfan.....heck before this hobby, i didn't even know there was a difference between the raiders jacket and the LC jacket....it all kind of blended in with the aging of ford and perhaps this is what we will see in this upcoming movie.

a couple of things i'd like to point out though: ford said he wanted to do bad things to the genius who put a leather jacket on indy while trekking through the jungle.....what's the justification of him upgrading to cowhide then.....especially when he's going back in the jungle?

secondly, bernie pollak's relationship with ford predates "what lies beneath" as he is credited for "clear and present danger" in 94 and "the devil's own" in 97. i noticed this as bernie seems to be agreeable with wrangler relaxed fit jeans on the man in more than one movie. was it only after "what lies beneath" that the contract became solidified?

all in all. i'd like to have this jacket for the collection. at this moment, its primarily to see what the hoopla is all about and what changes have been made. i don't like the collar.....i like the sloppy raiders collar that looked like they casted the german mechanic in indy's role and then had to retailor the jacket when replaced by ford

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:08 pm

a couple of things i'd like to point out though: ford said he wanted to do bad things to the genius who put a leather jacket on indy while trekking through the jungle.....what's the justification of him upgrading to cowhide then.....especially when he's going back in the jungle?

Ford said that over 26 years ago. I can assure you, there are a LOT of things I said that long ago that I have either long since forgotten, or completely reversed field on.

He could have also been told (and no, this is NOT a spoiler. I'm making this up as I go...

) by Speilberg..."Harrison, this time round we're sending you into the jungle, and you're going to have the crud beat out of you by a bunch of natives holding bamboo sticks."

Ford: "Oh, really? If that's the case, I'd REALLY like to talk to you about the weight of the jacket leather now. Forget the lambskin this time....."

Regards! Michaelson

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:20 pm

or maybe it's one of those "getting old things" where if you don't move to florida, you better bulk up in what you're wearing

betcha he's lucking he had his pants cuffed so high so now he can just let the cuff back down and it will look natural when his web belt is above his belly button.........{dive's under the plymouth}

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:34 pm

Indiana G wrote: betcha he's lucking he had his pants cuffed so high so now he can just let the cuff back down and it will look natural when his web belt is above his belly button.........{dive's under the plymouth}

You talking about Ford....or me?

Regards! Michaelson

CM · Post by CM » Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:43 pm

So Mr Ford has a guy who helps him pick clothing, huh? Too bad he hasn't had help picking film roles over the past decade. Let's hope Indy 4 isn't a disappointment... we need it to be good as does Mr Ford's career.

Cheers

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:14 pm

CM wrote:So Mr Ford has a guy who helps him pick clothing, huh? Too bad he hasn't had help picking film roles over the past decade. Let's hope Indy 4 isn't a disappointment... we need it to be good as does Mr Ford's career.

Cheers

I agree, but at this point it hardly matters as far as Harrison is concerned. He’s immortal. He can do no wrong. It’s like Paul McCartney releasing crummy albums every couple of years. Nobody cares. He was a Beatle. Ford was Indiana Jones, Han Solo, and Rick Decard. He can’t really tarnish his legacy at this point. But I still want a good Indy 4 as much as you.

St. Dumas · Post by **St. Dumas** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:58 pm

Curious as to how much input personal image consultants such as Bernie Pollack have on a film's wardrobe. It's one thing having a personal services contract to make your boss doesn't look like a slob or out of fashion, but when, I wonder, would the production's costume designer be able to put his or her foot down? It seems to me that the film's lead actor shouldn't be able to decide what the character wears if the plot or continuity with previous films dictate a particular article of clothing; maybe just having a choice between options provided by the costume designer. But what we hear in CS is that Pollack is calling the shots on the jacket. I can see Spielberg giving Ford considerable latitude over these things because of their relationship and Ford's place in the franchise, but how far would that go I wonder? After all, it is Indiana Jones who is wearing the jacket, not Harrison Ford.

SD

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:09 pm

hey _,

is your avatar a shot against me?......punn intended......and....just kidding

what's it say anyways?

Doug C · Post by **Doug C** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:11 pm

You know for some reason I doubt Spielberg is looking for much more than a really, really close look on most of Indy's stuff. He probably looks at the items as being identical, perhaps even thought the LC jacket was identical to RotLA..or the hat for that matter. We on the otherhand, I believe are much more into the exact details.. I doubt any of them have ever though that much about such things, I mean we're on here everyday practically year after year discussing these things. The thing is that I'd think Ford would have his man put in for a little better fit in the shirt and jacket area considering how well he's kept himself in shape for his age.. you know show it off a little bit.

Doug C

St. Dumas · Post by **St. Dumas** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:17 pm

_ wrote:... There was a lot of bloodshed before Bernie joined and took the reigns for the hero costume...

Anything you can spill?

SD

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:38 pm

i agree with you doug.

do you think spieldberg can quote off the top of his had that the hat dims are 5 1/2" open, 4 1/2" finished with a center dent, 1 1/2" dark brown ribbon, with dimensionally cut sides (2 3/4" front back and 2 1/2" sides.....or is it 2 7/8 front back and 2 5/8 sides.....the 1/8" depends on the face i guess). i don't think he can do this....or even the length of the bag strap or even the fact that ford only laces the top 2 claws on his aldens.....nope....betcha he can't. the real question is.....why do i (we) know this????

reminds me of the saturday night live episode wher they asked william shatner if he remembered his safe combination the episode "the bad seed"

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:38 pm

St. Dumas, old friend, I get a little nervous when I read a post with the word 'bloodshed' made by _, then a reply regarding whether or not anything can be 'spilled'!

Regards! Michaelson

St. Dumas · Post by **St. Dumas** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:45 pm

Michaelson wrote:St. Dumas, old friend, I get a little nervous when I read a post with the word 'bloodshed' made by _, then a reply regarding whether or not anything can be 'spilled'!

Regards! Michaelson

Good point!

Castor Dioscuri · Post by **Castor Dioscuri** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:54 pm

Seems that I'm the only one that thinks this, but I personally really like how 'pointy' the Indy IV collar is. The Wested jacket which I tried to replicate the Indy IV jacket, is my favorite by far, and the pointy-ness certainly helps make it lay properly, and doesn't sit strangely like my auth. lamb Wested. In my opinion, the collar certainly gives it a unique look, since I think jackets with rounded collar tips just all look so generic.

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:15 pm

Indiana G wrote:i agree with you doug.

reminds me of the saturday night live episode wher they asked william shatner if he remembered his safe combination the episode "the bad seed"

"You..., have you even kissed a girl?"

All time great episode. It had Lone Justice as the musical guest to boot.

Canada Jones · Post by **Canada Jones** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:39 pm

_ wrote:[and Deb pretty much blew that gig…

Could you please expand on this?
thanks
Canada

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:04 pm

There was actually a pre-Bernie jacket project headed by one of the nearly departed and he was an idiot… Ford pulled the trigger on that one and said it was his guy for his wardrobe and he did not care about the other wardrobe…

Yep, I can back all of this up. And that Ford brought in his own personal costumer, that he was fond of, and had worked on other films with him.

I am not sure what input Steven S. had on the jacket, but I can tell you, he was the one that picked which AB would be used. By viewing it on film. And it was not the one that had already been agreed upon by Bernie and Ford. But, poetic justice was done and the first hat made it into the film by accident. One hat among many that were put on Ford's head during the filmwork. I won't ever forget when at the same time, Ford was saying the 5 1/2 crown hat should be shorter, and Steven was saying it should be taller!! And Marc and I were restlessly waiting for the final decision. Turns out the 5 1/2 is what appealed to Steven and the rest is history. Fedora

Jaredraptor · Post by **Jaredraptor** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:08 pm

Castor Dioscuri wrote:Seems that I'm the only one that thinks this, but I personally really like how 'pointy' the Indy IV collar is. The Wested jacket which I tried to replicate the Indy IV jacket, is my favorite by far, and the pointy-ness certainly helps make it lay properly, and doesn't sit strangely like my auth. lamb Wested. In my opinion, the collar certainly gives it a unique look, since I think jackets with rounded collar tips just all look so generic.

Naw, you aren't alone: I too like the look of the Indy IV collar. Now, if you hadn't gotten so detailed, I'd have been able to say more....

(just jokin' on that last bit

. I actually don't know much about leather jacket collars, except that mine has more of the the "racer" style. As in, next to no collar)

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:52 pm

castor, i'm definitely not knocking your colar....the wested colar. yours is the same design as kt's which i think looks awesome. i'm tempted to get an LC jacket just because of that colar.

when i first saw the nowak jacket on the hanger i thought....huh.....the lc colar looks a little "angled" and "symetrical" but perhaps it looks different when it's around ford's neck. then i saw the shot of him wearing it and it just didn't agree with me.....looked kind of too "dressy" than "rugged"....perhaps something bond would wear. if any of you understand what i am trying to say, congratulations, you are a jacket nut

maybe when i see more of this jacket, i will like it......i mean, if the only thing i saw of the federation was the bow, i'd say it's no a good hat......and i'd be waaaaaaaay off the mark

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:07 am

looked kind of too "dressy" than "rugged"....perhaps something bond would wear.

I dunno, just offhand(I need to pull out my RM A-2, but is looks more A-2ish to me. If it had the snaps on the tip of the collar. But that is just a first impression. I will pull her out and see if my gut is being truthful.

A question _. The jacket that you saw years ago, the stunt jacket. Which film was it from? I can't recall!!! And were ALL the jackets used in Raiders returned to whomever made them? I know I have heard there were non in the Warehouse as most of that stuff, wardrobe wise was TOD and TLC. Any info on this, or do we need to wait for the writeup?

With the hats that we made, they just bought them, with us having to sign nothing!! No agreement of any sort. It is an accepted deal in Hollywood I guess among the folks that are in the business to supply costume items, to just keep their mouth shut if they want to continue to work with films. That is what I gathered anyways. Since I was a dummy, I had to be told this in a manner of speaking.

Fedora

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:28 am

With the hats that we made, they just bought them, with us having to sign nothing!!

Is there an invoice?

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:29 am

Is there an invoice?"

None, but I did get several of these.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:32 am

Judging by the size of the photograph, it was a big one, too!

Castor Dioscuri · Post by **Castor Dioscuri** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:03 pm

I'm guessing Steve must have kept at least one cheque as a souvenior... I know I would!

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:23 pm

LOL! You took a picture of it?

You bet I did. And the actual checks too. But account numbers on on them, so......

If anyone in the future CLAIMS to have made the hats, I have proof as to who made them.

Checks don't lie. And each check had the list of hats on the tear off section, which I saved as well. Gotta cover your tail in this business. I mean, Barons had that deal in Parade, if you recall correctly.

And I expect others to claim they made the hats as time goes on. But, can they prove it? No problem for us! I even kept the list for the original stuntmen, their names and their sizes for future reference. I have saved alll correspondance via email too, with the pics sent from Western Costume. I got quite a little collection going on here.

Fedora

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:37 pm

Good man!