What did mercury do for pre-40's hats?

airforceindy · Post by **airforceindy** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:00 am

I've been admiring and nvying Bink's vintage-felt AB for a while now, and I started to wonder:

1) When did Mercury go out of business (I was corrected that 'mercury' simply referred to the felting process)?

2) What did the mercury do for the felt that makes them so enviable today?

Regards, Andy

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:37 am

Andy, the mercury nitrate was forbidden to use in the late 40's.

Mercury nitrate helps raising the barbs on the single furs, allowing them to interlock easier and was mainly used on rabbit and hare fur, as it wasn't necesarry on beaver fur (however it was used on beaver fur as well). The mercury nitrate cause the furs to get an orange tint, hence the term "carroting" (have a look at google). Since the single hairs are interlocked like jigsaw bricks, even on a rather lose felt, the tendency for the felt to felt tighter by itself was set to a minimum. It is often said that the surface on a mercury nitrate treated hat is smoother as well, but personally I cannot attest to that.

Today other chemical and / or mechanical treatments are used to gain the same effect. Either by the felter and / or the hatter.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Marc

airforceindy · Post by **airforceindy** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:03 am

Thanks, Marc! 'Preciate the info...

-Andy

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:26 am

Just to rub it in, Andy, here's another pic of that hat I posted before. It's from the unseen "Mystery of the Hula" episode of the "Not Indiana Jones Cronicles."

The color really has an interesting quality which I really like, and though I wouldn't consider it orange, I'm sure the mercury contributed to the color. I've also heard it said that the process had a side effect of helping to resist or kill taper, though on my hat I'm sure it has a lot to do with the natural deadening of the felt over the past 80 years or so. They still reblocked many a hat in the day, so I'm sure unwanted taper (and wanted taper

) isn't a new thing.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:08 pm

The mercury liteally puffed up the fur fibers like popcorn. Ladies of the evening, back in the old west, used mercury on their eyelashes. It was a predecessor to mascara, except mascara added volume by coating the eyelash, while mercury puffed them up to make them look fuller. I saw this on Wild West Tech, on The History Channel.

So hold a kernal of popcorn, feel how hard it is, and then pop it and notice how much softer it is. This is what mercury basically did to fur, and you ended up with the softest rabbit hat ever made. But the beaver was already a softer fur, and the mercury just made it unbelievable soft.

So, the mercury did several things to the felt, not just raise the barbs. Fedora

Post by **Tennessee Smith** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:42 pm

So I take it the mercury helped out with making them "Mad as a Hatter"?

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:45 pm

Literally.

Regards! Michaelson

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:02 pm

This is what mercury basically did to fur, and you ended up with the softest rabbit hat ever made.

Completely forgot about that! Thanks for pointing out. It was the "popcorn effect" that raised the barbs!

Regards,

Marc

Post by **Dalexs** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:20 pm

So one has to ask... what would mercury do to Michaelsons mustache?

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:23 pm

Dalexs wrote:So one has to ask... what would mercury do to Michaelsons mustache?

Any more questions?

Regard! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:23 pm

Erin Jones wrote:So I take it the mercury helped out with making them "Mad as a Hatter"?

Yep. In fact, that's where the phrase comes from. Handle mercury like that and it's going to do all kinds of fun stuff to your nervous system! Unfortunately, many hatters after the '40s had to come up with a new excuse.

rcinlv · Post by **rcinlv** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:46 pm

I love all this science nerd stuff!!!

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-mad2.htm

Cheers,

RC

airforceindy · Post by **airforceindy** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:18 pm

So, does anybody besides Bink have pics of their hats from that era? I've seen a number of them over on the Fedora Lounge, and it would be nice to see a couple here, Indy-style or otherwise.

Regards, Andy

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:51 pm

Jup, my vintage felt AB

Regards,

Marc

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:05 pm

Pics, Marc, he asked for pics of your hat!

hanson · Post by **hanson** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:38 pm

i guess this also goes to show that we took a great leap forward in scientific knowledge during the forties; because, the us gov't stopped using fulminate of mercury in military primers, although this was probably more to stop corrosion than madness. what do ya think michaelson ? were they concerned about the cumulative affects off mercury back then like they have become with lead in recent years. regards, hanson.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:57 am

Completely forgot about that! Thanks for pointing out. It was the "popcorn effect" that raised the barbs

Thanks to The History Channel. You go to watch some wild west tech and you learn about what mercury does to hair!!

But, until I heard this reference to the use of mercury, I had no clue that the stuff actually made the fur puff up and become softer. This may very well have added some taper resistance to the mercury made hats as well, but that is conjecture on my part.

So I take it the mercury helped out with making them "Mad as a Hatter"?

You know, I have a sneakin' suspicion that the mad hatters disease is also the culprit for the inconsistency in hat sizing charts. One chart might show a 7 1/4 hat as fitting a 22 5/8, another a 22 3/4 and another even a 23 inch head. Now, realize that you get the American size by dividing the head circumference by pi. So, either the early hatters who made these charts were bad mathmaticians, or their brains were damaged. And that is WHY I work off of head measurements. You can't trust sizing charts. Fedora

nicktheguy · Post by **nicktheguy** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:38 am

I feel so much more "edu-macated" now. What a cool bit of info.

Jaredraptor · Post by **Jaredraptor** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:10 pm

So.......what would happen to a modern fedora if you gave it the mercury treatment?

Post by **Tennessee Smith** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:57 pm

Since mercury made felt feel so much softer back then, do hats today have the same qualities and effect without mercury, or is it like Pepsi vs. Coke? Kinda the same but not really

Also, if the chemicals today can come close to the feel of mercury but are somewhat still lacking, does that mean a finer quality felt has to be used across the board?

JPdesign · Post by **JPdesign** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:59 pm

English sizes are based on the circumfrance of the hat without the sweat band, american are the circumfrance of the of the sweat band.

Mercury nitrate was also poured on the felt during the finishing process and ironed in. felt is made of hair fibers, there is air space between the fibers, if the fibers are puffed after the felt is made, they get closer together and there is less airspace. THis felt will be denser and absorb less water.

Ther is no one thing that can replicate this today. There are combinations of things that start to simulate the same process, but nothing that doesw the same thing.

Jimmy

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:18 pm

Hmmmm... if I puff popcorn, just because they're bigger, doesn't mean there's less air in the bucket than before...

Actually I have personally not seen a vintage felt that is as dense as a good modern felt. Softer and more pliable - yes. Denser, no. Just my personal experience of course.

Regards,

Marc

JPdesign · Post by **JPdesign** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:33 pm

Its basic physics

If you put unpopped corn in a jar, filled to the top, and screw on the lid. This represents a crosssection of the felt, if you punch a whole, this is the plug.

Now you heat the top and bottom until the top and bottom 1/4 of the corn is popped, leaving the center half un popped.

Then every thing is packed tighter, and the top and bottom of the jar is much denser.

you have three layers, two tight, one in the center is looser. this allows the two outside layers to shift a bit in relation to each other, making the felt extremely pliable. the two dense layers are more water proof.

Jimmy

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:00 pm

True, but felt isn't packed in a jar, and the lower and upper popcorn would just take up more space once you remove the jar

Thereby making the crosssection thicker, but nowhere denser (rather the opposite). Also going by basic physics...

Just push a needle through a vintage felt and then do the same to a well made modern felt of the same thickness. You'll see that it takes more strenght to push it through the modern felt, which will also be heavier than the vintage one (since a jar full of popped popcorn weights less, than a jar full of unpoppep corn). Also with all the vintage and modern hats I've worked with in the past, the core was always denser than the surface

Regards,

Marc

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:13 pm

Mercury nitrate was also poured on the felt during the finishing process and ironed in. felt is made of hair fibers, there is air space between the fibers, if the fibers are puffed after the felt is made, they get closer together and there is less airspace. THis felt will be denser and absorb less water.

Ther is no one thing that can replicate this today. There are combinations of things that start to simulate the same process, but nothing that doesw the same thing.

Yeah, that is logical, and I think is the real truth behind the mercury felt. I know that indeed some hats were finished with the "mercury finish" and these were the really fine hats. Lesser hats may not have had this done to them. But that is pure conjecture on my part. So, yeah, JP, I think you nailed it. I had always wondered where the "mercury finish" figured in to the equation and I think you just told me. A mercury finished hat also has its own very distinctive "feel" to it. Part of this feel may very well come from mercury being used in the finishing process.

I have a Stetson 7x, vintage, and it has a very dense core, whereas some of the Stetsons in the Royal and Royal Deluxe line were pretty porous compared to my felt. So, I have seen some very dense vintage hats is what I am saying, and I have seen some that were not. I figure the good quality hats produced prior to 1947 were all at least carroted with mercury, and I also expect this felt to be better than what followed after 1947. I read they went to hydrogen peroxide to take the place of mercury, but I am sure better chemicals have been found since that time, but I am no expert in feltmaking so........

But, just doing the logic exercise here, I have to assume that mercury was the best thing to use in feltmaking, otherwise they would have found a cheaper alternitve a hundred years earlier, or even hundreds of years earlier. It was not the choice carroter, and finisher, if it was not indeed superior in what it did to the fur. For me, I wished they still used it, as there are ways to NOT pollute the ground water, and cause the ill effects upon the workers. Modern tech would solve those problems. But a change in laws would have to take place, and as we know, that ain't gonna happen.

I am glad I got myself a collection of vintage hats, as I weeded out the good ones and only kept the excellent ones in terms of felt. At least I can pull them out of the boxes ever so often and marvel at what they use to make!

I know this one mad hatter who says his modern felt is better than any vintage ever made. The man never saw a vintage Borsalino is all I can say. Or a vintage beaver Cavanagh, or a beaver Knox, made by a master hatter in the front shop. The best felt today that is made is still inferiour to this old felt. Not all old felt, but this top of the line stuff from yesteryear. And I have to assume this is due to mercury, and the choice of fur used. Fedora

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:29 pm

I know this one mad hatter who says his modern felt is better than any vintage ever made.

I know who you're referring to and I know it's not me

However, I think it depends on how to define "better". I've seen my share of vintage Borsalinos, Stetson and vintage beaver hats, but I still like the good stuff that is available nowadays. Granted, there's a LOT of @#$% made today and a mercury nitrate treated felt has a certain "feel" to it that I never felt on a modern felt, but that's about it for me (personal opinion).

Regards,

Marc

JPdesign · Post by **JPdesign** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:43 pm

Marc,

Felt is not a bunch of small round particles sitting next to each other. It is a bunch of long fibers that are wrapped around each other and intertwined. These put pressure on each other as they swell. They hold each other in. and tighten around each other. There is also the pressure from the ironing in the process that squeezes the felt.

Jimmy

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:34 am

I know what felt is Jimmy and how it's made

I've spend many hours on the phone with my felter learning things that neither Steve nor I knew before.

However, it seems like you and Steve are referring to the high end mercury treated hats from back in the days, while I was referring to the standard mercury treated hats from back then. I'm sure, that if you compare a standard vintage Borsalino or a vintage Stetson Royal Deluxe to one of your felts, you wouldn't consider that so darn special. It's the high end hats, where the mercury was used during the ironing as well as you mentioned yourself and not just during the carroting, that make the difference.

The problem is, though I've handled dozens of vintage hats over the years, I've never come accros one of these super special hats, such as the 7x Stetson or Stetson Imperial that Steve has. I'm sure you've seen your part of outstanding vintage felts as well, such as the Mercury Indy from Joe jr. I'd love to see one of these once, as they seem to be from a different world. But a standard of the rack vintage Borsalino, Stetson or Knox... even though they're mercury treated, but that felt is nowhere special IMHO.

Regards,

Marc

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:17 pm

However, it seems like you and Steve are referring to the high end mercury treated hats from back in the days, while I was referring to the standard mercury treated hats from back then.

I think we would need some verifiable pre 1947 hats to compare to post 1947 hats to really tell the difference. I know many that you get on ebay are not mercury made hats. They are very rare. But from 1948 on through the 60's you see alot of those hats. Fedora