my bullwhip aint that shiney

WhipMaster_Indy · Post by **WhipMaster_Indy** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 1:27 pm

iv seen pics of other peps whips and all and thay all seem to be vary shine wall mine is more of a dull color that dosen shine much after puting some saddle soap on my whip its got a good shine but nothing like the ones iv seen in pics is it just a type of leather or i dident think of this untill just now leather polish or somthang thanks!

ecwhips · Post by **ecwhips** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 1:36 pm

Many whipmakers(including me) put a coat of shellac on the whip after it is done, which is what gives it that nice glossy look.

Jim

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 1:40 pm

Some whip makers treat a new whip with a coat of shellack which seals up the raw edges of the strands and gives the whip that shiny, polished look. This eventually flakes of the most flexible areas of the thong. If your whip was made by Bernie then it probably never got a coat of shellack since I don't believe he uses this practice. This does not affect the performance or quality of your whip. Also, it is not advisable to treat your whip with shellack if it has been used and/or dressed. The shellack will not soak into dressed leather and/ or it will seal dirt and debri into the whip which will then erode the leather faster.

bernie47 · Post by **bernie47** » Sat Mar 22, 2003 8:02 am

Just a quick reply to this subject.Personally I think leather should look like leather and not like plastic .I feel that coating your whip with shellac does more harm than good in the long run because it prevents any leather dressing you use from penetrating the leather.The other drawback as someone mentioned is that in a very short time after using your whip you will find that the shellac starts to peel off and crack.
I have on occasions used a leather lacquer called Neat-Lac made by Tandy and this unlike shellac does not crack because it is made for leather but again it makes leather look and feel like plastic.Shellac was primarily used for French polishing furniture and if anyone is interested here is a small excerp from an article on where shellac comes from;For the full article follow the link.
http://antiquerestorers.com/Articles/je ... hellac.htm

Shellac is derived from a natural resin secreted by a tiny insect called Laccifera Lacca. This insect, about the size of an apple seed, alights on certain trees indigenous to India and Thailand and feeds off sap in the twigs of the trees. The insects secrete a cocoon type "shell", which is harvested by workers shaking the tree branches. In this form the resin is called sticklac and contains bits of twig, insect and other contaminants. The word "lac" comes from the Sanskrit lakh - which means one-hundred thousand.

The sticklac is then washed to remove impurities and a red coloring matter. At this point it may be either refined by hand or machine. Buttonlac is processed in India and is an impure form of shellac. It is reddish-brown in color and is sold in 1"-2" wide buttons, usually with the name of the dealer stamped on one side. Seedlac is another impure form and is processed further in India to better quality lacs, or exported to other countries for further refining. White shellac is made in this country by the Wm. Zinsser Company from imported seedlac which is dewaxed and then bleached by bubbling chlorine gas through it. This yields a colorless shellac solution.
Kind Regards
Bernie
Em Brand Whips

Cabinetman · Post by **Cabinetman** » Sat Mar 22, 2003 9:31 am

I'm with Bernie. Given my screen name, if you guessed it's my profession, you'd be right. I haven't used a lot of shellac, so I am not an expert on that type of finish specifically. I would liken the use of wood finishing products on your whip to doing the same to a pair of boots, which I don't believe is common practice, nor would you do it to your new wested. Although I suppose the idea there is reduce the shine, yes? I still don't think I'll be using rubbing alcohol on mine when it gets here though. I believe in the natural process. Yet, I have made some pretty neat looking pieces for clients who wanted the brand new to be instant old.

But the shellac on the whip. I don't know. Does everybody but Bernie do this? If the idea is to add depth and warmth to the newly finished piece, then why not just condition it with Pecards. Haven't I read this to be part of the way of breaking in a new whip anyway?

By the way, how much shellac is used? If you're just skimming it on, it's something that you can get that kind of shine. Porosity is another issue, though. Is kangaroo hide pretty dense? In my experience, with wood, you really need to build the finish. I have used shellac as a sealer, and then used used several coats of paste wax. No, no, I wouldn't put paste wax on a whip. Given that shellac's solvent is denatured alcohol, which dries/evaporates/flashes very, very quickly, it's conceivable that the finish is not getting into the kangaroo, but merely sitting on top. This would account for the flaking with use. Prior to any other conditioning or dressing treatment, though, I think I would want to make very sure that the shellac is gone from the surface.

I will, however, leave the whipmaking to the whipmakers and I'll stick to the woodworking. I wasn't pretending to know the ways of whipdom. I just wanted to maybe add a small bit of experience from the woodfinishing side of things.

Have a great day, all. It's a beautiful morning here on central Illinois.

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Sun Mar 23, 2003 8:06 pm

Well, I for one really like the aesthetic results one yields from giving a newly constructed whip a coat of shellack. It's a nice touch that gives the whip a very professional appearance. Yes, shellack is not required but I've been doing this with all of my whips with no adverse problems. It does eventually flake off allowing leather dressing to be used so shellack will not cause your whips to not be conditioned.

So if it flakes off, why use it? Like I stated above it gives the whip a very clean and un-used appearance making it more appealing. It is the whip makers answer to the plastic covers on the floor mats of a new car. Or the light wax coating on super market apples. Or the shrink wrap on a CD's jewel case. It gives the effect of an un-opened package.

Once again it all comes down to personal preference on the part of the whip maker. Every whip maker has their own different techniques to making a whip and every whip maker believes they are right. The use or non-use of shellack is no different.

Cabinetman · Post by **Cabinetman** » Sun Mar 23, 2003 9:56 pm

Good enough. Understood.

Say, Edge, which whipmaker are you? I am in the market (or will be hopefully soon) as I get into all this gear. I have considered about everyone listed here around the site, and I guess I am leaning towards EC Whips. The cost is pretty attractive (especially since this will be my first whip) at $190 for an 8', 12 plait.

Thanks.

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 12:38 pm

Cabinetman wrote:Good enough. Understood.

Say, Edge, which whipmaker are you? I am in the market (or will be hopefully soon) as I get into all this gear. I have considered about everyone listed here around the site, and I guess I am leaning towards EC Whips. The cost is pretty attractive (especially since this will be my first whip) at $190 for an 8', 12 plait.

Thanks.

Cabinetman,

I'm my own whipmaker at the moment. With the exception of the Pocket Bull whips, which I sell here on occasion, I only make whips for my own personal enjoyment. I'm not a vendor as of yet.

My personal opinion is that you should buy a whip from someone other than EC Whips. I was not pleased with the quality of EC's product when I was given a chance to give their whips a try. I can understand why folks tend to be attracted to the amazingly low price but what you end up with is still not worth it. Find a better vendor and spend the extra money.

ecwhips · Post by **ecwhips** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 2:00 pm

The_Edge wrote:
Cabinetman wrote:Good enough. Understood.

Say, Edge, which whipmaker are you? I am in the market (or will be hopefully soon) as I get into all this gear. I have considered about everyone listed here around the site, and I guess I am leaning towards EC Whips. The cost is pretty attractive (especially since this will be my first whip) at $190 for an 8', 12 plait.

Thanks.
Cabinetman,

My personal opinion is that you should buy a whip from someone other than EC Whips. I was not pleased with the quality of EC's product when I was given a chance to give their whips a try. I can understand why folks tend to be attracted to the amazingly low price but what you end up with is still not worth it. Find a better vendor and spend the extra money.

You will have to try out one of my newer whips. The whip you're basing your opinion on was made roughly a year ago, when I made plenty of mistakes making whips. The quality now is well worth the price I charge, and I offer a full money back guarantee if the customer feels the whip is not up to standard.

Jim

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 2:39 pm

It was about 7 or 8 months ago. After which you decided to "stop" making whips until you felt your quality was up to par. This lasted all of about a month. I just don't see the quality of your product improving that rapidly to a professional standard over such a short period of time. Nothing personal.

I'd be happy to review one of your newer whips. If you don't feel comfortable with that then I suggest sending what you believe to be your best effort (preferably one that you can consistently produce) to Sergei for review. If Sergei gives it a positive review then I will retract my recent statements that say otherwise.

Again, I'm not being personal about this. I just understand how difficult it is to make a whip of any kind. The end product requires the whip maker to have an honest and critical eye of their own work. If there is any doubt in that whip makers mind that the whip they produced lacks the professional standard that a customer expects and deserves then they need to keep practicing. After handling bullwhips made by David Morgan, Joe Strain and Mike Murphy do you still feel that your work is near that standard of quality? If you do, then send one to Sergei. I trust his opinion.

ecwhips · Post by **ecwhips** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 2:59 pm

The_Edge wrote:It was about 7 or 8 months ago. After which you decided to "stop" making whips until you felt your quality was up to par. This lasted all of about a month. I just don't see the quality of your product improving that rapidly to a professional standard over such a short period of time. Nothing personal.

I'd be happy to review one of your newer whips. If you don't feel comfortable with that then I suggest sending what you believe to be your best effort (preferably one that you can consistently produce) to Sergei for review. If Sergei gives it a positive review then I will retract my recent statements that say otherwise.

Again, I'm not being personal about this. I just understand how difficult it is to make a whip of any kind. The end product requires the whip maker to have an honest and critical eye of their own work. If there is any doubt in that whip makers mind that the whip they produced lacks the professional standard that a customer expects and deserves then they need to keep practicing. After handling bullwhips made by David Morgan, Joe Strain and Mike Murphy do you still feel that your work is near that standard of quality? If you do, then send one to Sergei. I trust his opinion.

I know you saw that whip 7 or 8 months ago, but the whip itself is older than that. I didn't decide to stop making whips until the quality was up to par, I stopped selling whips until the quality was up to par, which was about 4 months time, and I also drastically lowered my prices. Is my work the quality of Joe Strain or Mike Murphy? Of course not. No one can get to that level in such a short time, but then again my prices are nowhere near what theirs are. But while my whips may not be as letter perfect as far as smoothness or the strands being hand cut with machine precision like theirs are, they are tight, solid and handle well. Sergei was supposed to take a look at one of my whips that I had given to Brady Marz in December, but I don't know if he ever got to see it or not.

I wasn't taking what you said personally. I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in being that my work was being discussed.

Jim

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 3:55 pm

Jim,
I will be glad to review your recent work. From the looks of your recent work, the overlay you done a wonderful job on the taper of the thong and the taper on the laces. The knots look better. I just purchased this year, from what I thought were 2 good whip makers this year and the results of their weighting and balance were not up to par.

-Sergei

brady · Post by **brady** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 4:54 pm

From what I have read there haven't seemed to have been any probems with any of Jim's recent works.

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 1:26 pm

I really regret dredging this subject up again. My original comments on those three whips can still be found in the archives of this forum and I will leave them at that. If the EC Whips have truly evolved then my invitation for Jim to send a current and consistent sample to Sergei for proper review still stands. Until then, my opinon will continue to be colored by my prior experience.

I know some of you out there think I'm being harsh. But think about that next time you steer someone away from a wool Disney fedora or a Stetson Temple towards the Akubra or PB. It's no different. Thanks.

ecwhips · Post by **ecwhips** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 1:49 pm

The_Edge wrote:I really regret dredging this subject up again. My original comments on those three whips can still be found in the archives of this forum and I will leave them at that. If the EC Whips have truly evolved then my invitation for Jim to send a current and consistent sample to Sergei for proper review still stands. Until then, my opinon will continue to be colored by my prior experience.

I know some of you out there think I'm being harsh. But think about that next time you steer someone away from a wool Disney fedora or a Stetson Temple towards the Akubra or PB. It's no different. Thanks.

Yes, I'm really not interested in hacking through this subject again. The first go around can be read in the archives. All that matters to me is that my customers are happy, and so far, they are more than satisfied. If anyone feels my whips are not worth my price, then don't order one. I've contacted Sergei privately and a whip will be on the way to him by the end of the week. On that note, I am finished with this thread.

Best regards,
Jim