Raiders brim shape

ztmario · Post by **ztmario** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:10 am

ok, I've noticed on here that lots of people seem to have their brims snapped up all the way around the back.. so that the back of the brim is upturned as with the sides. but from what I've seen in raiders, his hat is most definitely not shaped like this. from as much as I can tell, the brim is upturned around the sides, and dips downward towards the back. and for what it's worth, I tried snapping the brim up all the way around the back of the hat, but I can't do it because of my brim shape. there's too much brim in the back and it folds up on me. so am I missing something with the SA brim shape?

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:16 am

indy's brim has a slight curl in the back in the raven bar scenes. you can see it through the side profile where marion looks like he's gonna kiss him....but you are right though, the curl (flanging) diminishes as the brim works its way to the back of the hat. in the cairo scenes, his brim was pretty much flat with no flanging left as the brim seems to have lost it's curl (due to the heat, humidity, fiddling all through the movie, etc).

mr. kettle usually takes the flanging off of a brim that is being 'uncooperative'.....if you are still fighting it, then mr. iron works good......and after you flatten the brim out with that, you can put the flange back to any degree you like.......but be sure to use these techniques sparingly as to not kill all the stiffener in the felt.

ztmario · Post by **ztmario** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:21 am

flanging? I just thought I cut the taper in the side of the hat to drastically... I can't see how an iron would get it out. it's like if I snap the back of the brim up all the way around, I get this single fold of brim that I have to pinch off in my fingers in order for the brim to be even otherwise. is this what you're talking about?

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:20 am

i'm not exactly sure what you mean but let me put it this way.....if you have a flanged brim all the way around (snapped up) and it looks like it could hold a pint of water when it rains, if you take an iron to it, it will look like a boy scout hat by the time you're done with it

the felt will adjust and flatten under the steam and the heat. this process is quite tricky to get an optimum effect so be careful if it's your go-to hat.

if you are trying to mold a snap brim dry or with water, it is quite difficult because if you push one side of the brim down, the other side will go up. however, if you use steam, the hat will "mold" as you wish but there are some guys that avoid mr. kettle altogether.

the raiders hat was a very floppy, highly characteristic hat that did not look the same in two different scenes....primarily because the brim would warp differently when the direction of the wind changed

depending if you really want to "nail" a scene's look, you'll need to mold the hat via steam if your brim is being unresponsive.......i truly believe this as i would challenge anyone out there to have a hat that looks exactly like the raiders hat, and that is as floppy as the raiders hat, and in it's most relaxed state......even THE raiders hat had different looks because of this.

just my 2 bits........

ztmario · Post by **ztmario** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:34 am

aaah.. no, it's not flanging. I CAN'T shape the brim to evenly snap up all the way around. I'll try and put a pic up, but it just won't work because of how I cut it. I'd be annoyed, but I like the cairo look more anyway...

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:04 am

The Raiders hat never loses it's curled snap brim in back, even in it's last filmed appearence in Tunisia, the truck explosion.

ztmario · Post by **ztmario** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:06 am

what about this..

and do YOU have any idea why my hat won't take the turned up shape?

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:08 am

I promise you, if you saw that edge on, it's curled. I don't know what kind of hat you have, but it has to come curled to begin with.

ztmario · Post by **ztmario** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:09 am

3thoubucks wrote:I promise you, if you saw that edge on, it's curled.

ok, stay online a few minutes, I'm gonna go snap a picture.

ztmario · Post by **ztmario** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:15 am

thats all my hat does when I try to snap up the brim in the back.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:17 am

3thou....the hat probably has the remnants of the flanging at the edge of the brim. i will agree with you there. the flanging is definitely on it's "last legs" in tunisa. the snapped up back is more prominent in the raven bar.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:18 am

What kind of hat is this? Did it come with a snap brim?

ztmario · Post by **ztmario** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:19 am

it's a camptown.. and no, it didn't. it came with a 3" flat brim, and I cut it myself. I THOUGHT I did a pretty good job until it wouldn't snap.... 2 3/4 front and back, 2 1/2 on the sides.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:21 am

zt.....if you take an iron to that, she'll come out flat IMO. my todd's hj had a curly flanging in the back and the steam iron flattened her out. then i was free to curl the brim back to the degree i wanted.

what kind of hat and felt is that btw?

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:25 am

aren't camptown's quite stiff out of the box? there may be enough stiffener to get those crinkles out if you douse the brim with steam and mold with your fingertips. add steam to soften the felt...not to get the felt droopy as it will be harder to get her back into shape.

then again, if she's got a good amount of stiffener in there, you should be able to fiddle around with it by hand and over time it should work out.....mr. kettle is for the impatient or really, really stubborn brims

ztmario · Post by **ztmario** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:28 am

well, yeah.. it was pretty stiff, and I've only had it a week or so, but I think I've softened her up a bit. unfortunately, I have work in 7.5 hours and a halloween party as soon as I get out. so I'm kinda doing something now that will either give me a perfectly SA hat by this time tomorrow.. or a hat that doesn't fit

. wish me luck.. lol and thanks for the info. goodnight chaps.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:30 am

You know, I'm really into brims lately. My Akubra Bushman gives me the best Raiders Brim I've had. It's kind of flat, then curls at the edge. An Akubra Federation has too much curl and I have to iron it. But, a Federation seems to have been run through a machine that puts an extra curl in the brim, and a line about one inch in from the edge. The Bushman has no such line. Anyway, I don't know how Camptown forms his brims. I think Adventurebuilt uses wooden forms to put the curl in, I don't know, but maybe Camptown just steams them in? Sorry Camptown, if I've got that wrong.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:32 am

only gearheads like us will criticize how 'SA' your hat is. everyone else in the real world will think it came off harrison's head if it's the camptown. i wouldn't sweat it too much. have fun at your halloween party....if anyone asks what your costume is, tell him you're dressed up as indiana G

hey 3thou, now that we have squashed the whole grey hat/brown hat issue, you wanna start a new debate on flanged hat/flat hat on the SOC fed?

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:53 am

Here's what intrigues me, G. I have an old H.J., older than Raiders, not quite a Poet. It has an unbound brim with an extra bit of brim curl an eighth inch in from the edge of the brim. I think this is put in with a special machine, which I have a picture of from Akubra's site. My Federations have it too, but wider. My Akubras, that come with a bound edge don't have evidence of extra curl put in with the machine, but, since their edges are bound, with rayon plastic ribbon, their original curl is locked in for eternity. - Unless the ribbon is trimmed off. NOW... I thought I observed such a machine induced line on the Raiders brim, but yesterday, I decided I was just seeing light and shadow. My Bushman gives me a really great Raiders hat, but I don't think it's exactly it, for some reasons I still need to understand..... Here's the "machine induced" brim curl/line on a Federation

ztmario · Post by **ztmario** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:34 am

well, it worked.. and the hat still fits. perfect rear brim curl.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:43 am

3k, here are just as many variations on hat flanges as there are on hat block shapes. Some flanges have a more subtle curl, while others have a more dramatic curl at the end, like shown on your vintage HJ. The shape of the snap brim (or any brim, really) is usually put in as part of the final touches. It's not done with a machine, other than what's used to iron it, whether an actual iron or a heated sandbag.

Here's a hat being flanged, though the guy's not using a flange cloth over the hat.

This hat is in the flange, protected by a flange cloth, if you will.

Some different flanges, including one on the right, which would replicate your HJ brim.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:35 am

Bink, you got it my friend. There are many differently shaped flanges, and even different types of flanges. There is a flange that is even used AFTER a pencil roll is put into the outer edge of the brim. That is, the pencil roll is put in with a special tool, and then there was a flange designed that fit the brim between the pencil roll and the crown. So, a two part process.

The flange used to create the Raider brim, as you see it when the hat is still fresh, is rare as hens teeth. It is relatively flat until it reaches the outermost section of the brim, and then it begans to curl. MOST flanges curl the entire brim, at least on dress hats.

On the above brim in question, I would iron it out flat, putting a piece of cloth between the iron and the brim. Once you get it flat, and before it cools, you can work in a bit of curl where you need it using your fingers, or any other implement handy. Let it cool, and then use a hand held steamer to soften and heat up just the area you are working on, and repeat an many times as needed to get the desired results. If the brim has stiffener in it, this will make the job easier.

I agree on the Raiders brim losing some of its curl as the film progressed, and the same hat was still being used. I never noticed if it ever lost all of it, but I have noticed the curl did relax out in certain scenes but may not be completely gone. Fedora

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:29 pm

I told you I'm learning, Steve!

Actually, I still have that hat to pull of the block and flange and resweat, but I need to get a new iron. Any suggestions on a good one to get?

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:25 pm

Any suggestions on a good one to get?

Yeah, shop ebay for an old but good vintage iron that will build up the biceps when you use it. It can be a dry iron, in fact, I prefer the dry irons over the steam irons, as I never use the steam setting. When you make hats, you use the wet hatters sponge to dampen the hat, and the dry iron will create the right amount of steam. The thing is, the dry iron will iron the hat dry, instead of pumping more steam into the hat. These little things do make a difference, and can't be emphasized enough.

When my vintage iron went out during the film hats, I bought a brand new vintage iron, unused, still in the box on ebay,and paid 4.95 for it, I think. But, I had it shipped overnight as I had no spare,and the clock was ticking. Since then, I have bought 2 more heavy vintage irons, both GE I think, so I never run into this problem again. The one I bought during the film hat production was a Jackson dry iron. It gets hot enough to burn the hide off of your arms, as I have found out several times since then. I keep a lookout for another Jackson, as it is just perfect for hatmaking. So far, no luck, but plenty of GEs show up. The iron needs to be heavy, because you need to compress the felt when you make hats. Especially soft felt hats. This is very, very important, the compression. Something you never are told in those hatmaking manuals. And, when you make a hat, the more times you iron it, after you wet it with the sponge, the better hat you will make. And the less it will taper over time. I ironed the my portion of the film hats 20 times per hat!! To make the best hat, you can make, you block the hat taller than the final specs. Then, you wet and iron it as many times as it takes to shrink it up to your final crown height. In this manner, you are forcing the hat to shrink, while on the block, instead of having it to shrink later on, while on the guys head. This shrinkage on the block, also really sets the shape, as the felt shrinks "to the shape" of the block and a change occurs in the core of the felt. This is a secret that I would bet many hatter don't even know. Or, the time involved to do it, is prohibitive. But, this is what separates a handmade hat from the others.

But, you have to be familiar with your felt too. Some felt will shrink more than others. Beaver shrinks the least, but it will shrink, so you just learn how much taller to stretch the felt out, before you start the ironing. The nature of all felt, new felt that is, is to shrink. The shrinkage is what creates felt to begin with.

Many hatters who make a 5 1/2 crown tall hat will use a 5 1/2 tall block. You can do it that way, but there is a much better way to do it. And that way is detailed above. Basically, you want as much of the shrinkage to occur while the hat is on the block, and that is why, all of my blocks are at least 6 inches tall. I block my 5 1/2 hats at 6 inches, and then shrink to the 5 1/2 inch height. On beaver felt, you can spend hours getting it to shrink!! But, it will shrink, so don't fool yourself into believing that it will not do so. But many times, it will take you a long time to get it done. And that is one of the differences between a good hat, and an excellent hat.

And yes, I am giving away secrets that some hatters would shoot me over. But, since they don't have the time to make hats like this, it is a moot point.

But, if you think about this, it is all common sense.

I spend loads of time making one hat. But, I know that when it leaves me, I have made the hat the right way, but the very slow way. You really can't make a fast, but excellent hat. It can still look great, but it is all cosmetics. The right foundation was never put into that hat from the get-go. The beauty is only skin deep. Fedora

ztmario · Post by **ztmario** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:01 pm

how's that? I think it's right.. pretty happy with it overall. and no iron, no steam; just a bottle of poland spring, two rolls of toilet paper, and 6 hours.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:06 pm

Many hatters who make a 5 1/2 crown tall hat will use a 5 1/2 tall block. You can do it that way, but there is a much better way to do it. And that way is detailed above. Basically, you want as much of the shrinkage to occur while the hat is on the block, and that is why, all of my blocks are at least 6 inches tall. I block my 5 1/2 hats at 6 inches, and then shrink to the 5 1/2 inch height.

I use 5 1/2" blocks for a 5 1/2" open crown. But when pulling the rawbody over the block with the help of a brim flange, I pull it 1/2" deeper than the block (takes a block stand). An then the procedure is the same as yours Steve. I just don't have to use a seperate band block, that's all

A good iron however in an absolute must have IMHO. Only vintage irons (or those that have been continuesly built the same way since back in the days) produce the heat you need to shrink the felt enough. I still have a scar on my left hand from touching the underside of my iron for a second. That wouldn't happen with a 99% of the irons they sell nowadays.

Regards,

Marc

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:20 pm

just a bottle of poland spring, two rolls of toilet paper, and 6 hours.

man....that poland spring water really doesn't agree with your system does it???

that camptown looks great zt! one of the best bashes i've seen.

ztmario · Post by **ztmario** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:07 pm

Indiana G wrote:
just a bottle of poland spring, two rolls of toilet paper, and 6 hours.
man....that poland spring water really doesn't agree with your system does it???

that camptown looks great zt! one of the best bashes i've seen.

hah.. yeah, I guess that really does sound weird, eh? well, I noticed that the brim would only flip up evenly around the back when I stretched the hat by pushing evenly on the front and back. so I poured water around the brim and stuffed the toilet paper (still on the rolls, side by side) into the hat since I didn't feel like holding it while it dried for the entire night. I was worried that the hat would stretch into a more oval shape and stop fitting, but as soon as I took the toilet paper out, it went back to its original shape and kept the brim shape.

the camptown hat is amazing.. and I know that adventurebilt is top of the line and all, but I can't imagine a hat being much better than this one. I've even soaked the ribbon several times without any discoloration (although Jersey did tell me not to do this for that very reason).

thanks for the compliment

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:27 am

I can't imagine a hat being much better than this one

I would have answered to this one, also if you hadn't brought up the AB or AB-Dlx..

You're absolutely right about having a hard time imagine anything better than the hat you have there. I've experienced this VARIOUS times myself. When I got my PB, I though my quest was over far all times. Nothing could be THAT much better than this IMO. But the praises on another at from fellow fans, evtl. got the better of me and I bought a different hat. Which I considered indeed to be better. And than another again. And yet another one......... That's just my experience.

Regards,

Marc

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:57 am

I use 5 1/2" blocks for a 5 1/2" open crown. But when pulling the rawbody over the block with the help of a brim flange, I pull it 1/2" deeper than the block (takes a block stand). An then the procedure is the same as yours Steve. I just don't have to use a seperate band block, that's all

Yeah, we trained together!!!

And you will recall out conversations regarding how HJ was making their hats.........

Marc and I have spent literally days on the phone over the years, pardon the pun, ironing out all of this hatmaking in detail.

I miss those early days Marc, back when we were still bouncing stuff off one another. I guess our Bell Curve finally reached its apex. I guess the last thing we learned was that aging process you came up with, in talking to that old timer over there.

Marc has the advantage of being friends with a guy who is indeed a felt expert, in the highest sense of the word. If you are friends with a guy who actually makes felt, many kinds of felt, you learn a whole lot. And Marc has worked his way in and has a good relationship with this man. $\:D/$

We even got to see pics, under a microscope of beaver underfur!!! Thanks to Marc and his relationship with this felt expert. It was great to see the little barbs on the fur, which allows felting to happen. And also to see the absence of any barbs on that seal fur.

What an eye opener. Fedora

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:30 pm

I miss those early days Marc, back when we were still bouncing stuff off one another.

So do I Steve. And time for a good chat has become rare! Man, how much time have we spent alone on the block design

And remember when I called you out of bed 7am in the morning to tell you that I found the Raiders ribbon supplier? - I never heard you waking up THAT fast

I guess the last thing we learned was that aging process you came up with, in talking to that old timer over there.

Which I gladly shared with you my friend. It's been quite a ride for the last years for sure. Wonder what the future will bring.

Regards,

Marc