Warning - British Bullwhip Tax

Satipo · Post by **Satipo** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:01 am

Just thought I'd let people know about how I'm being taxed here in Britain on the 10ft Morgan I recently ordered:

Import Duty: £10.25
V.A.T.: £73.56
Parcelforce Clearance Fee: £13.50

GRAND TOTAL: £97.31

Can you believe it??????

Adios,

Satipo

VP · Post by VP » Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:37 am

I got like 10 euros of customs and 70 euros of VAT for my 8' Strain.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:40 am

"Son of a....."

Thieving scum. :evil:

Bad luck mate.

Canyon · Post by **Canyon** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:54 am

£73 V.A.T.!!!

Not very funny. :evil:

whiskyman · Post by **whiskyman** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:30 am

All the more reason to buy a whip in Europe.

Shtick · Post by **Shtick** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:39 am

Dress up like Indy's and throw all the whips into the sea!!!!

Wait....

louiefoxx · Post by **louiefoxx** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:38 am

Satipo,

How did they list the whip on the customs form...as a whip? I've shipped a few whips to europe and I list them as "braided leather" or "theatrical prop" and I've never had anyone mention excessive taxes. But then also I'm not charging anywhere in the ballpark of what morgan does
.

xoxo

Louie

ANZAC_1915 · Post by **ANZAC_1915** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:08 am

What is the VAT % rate? Are you sure they calculated it on the USD value and not thinking it was GBP 770?

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:58 am

VAT is 17.5%. They charged based on the Pound value more or less.

Satipo · Post by **Satipo** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:51 pm

I just received the letter today, detailing the charges. But I haven't actually collected the whip yet, so I can't say how it's described on the packaging. I'll get it on Monday and post the details then. Still reeling a bit from the shock, but should have expected it, I guess.

Adios,

Satipo

VP · Post by VP » Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:42 pm

My package said that the content was bullwhip and when they asked what it was in Finnish I said that it's a horse lash.

This way I don't get into problems regarding products that might be made out of some extremely rare kangaroos.

indy89 · Post by **indy89** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:50 pm

That *****!

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:24 am

Yup, guys and gals the UK customs is getting greedy.

Please don't overstate the value of items on your customs forms! I just got taxed $105 dollars for a Wested form the States. They charged VAT on it as if it was worth £200, that's more than it cost new! Grrrr!

Satipo · Post by **Satipo** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:36 pm

Okay, package was described as "Kangaroo Braided Whip". And the "Gift" box was ticked.

Although it was painful paying the customs fees, I soon forgot about that once I got home and opened the box. I love it! Tried it out by myself already, but I've got a two hour bullwhip lesson to look forward to tomorrow.

Here's my baby:

Adios,

Satipo

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:39 pm

That's beautiful!

Hey, where do you get bullwhip lessons in London?

JerseyJones · Post by **JerseyJones** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:39 pm

Satipo wrote:Okay, package was described as "Kangaroo Braided Whip". And the "Gift" box was ticked.

Although it was painful paying the customs fees, I soon forgot about that once I got home and opened the box. I love it! Tried it out by myself already, but I've got a two hour bullwhip lesson to look forward to tomorrow.

Here's my baby:

Adios,

Satipo

And yes, you STILL have a killer DM whip ! Enjoy !

Ken/JJ

Satipo · Post by **Satipo** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:55 pm

Thanks guys - I aim to get A LOT of enjoyment out of this toy! It's a wonderful gift from my wonderful girlfriend!

Kt, the lesson is with a wild west performer who teaches at a circus school. Went to a western skills workshop of his last weekend and thought it was great fun. Of course, it means I'll probably be taking up rope spinning and knife throwing too!

Adios,

Satipo

ANZAC_1915 · Post by **ANZAC_1915** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:13 pm

Satipo wrote: Of course, it means I'll probably be taking up rope spinning and knife throwing too!

Handy skills to have in London, I assure you.

English Whip Maker · Post by **English Whip Maker** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:19 am

Satipo wrote:Just thought I'd let people know about how I'm being taxed here in Britain on the 10ft Morgan I recently ordered:

Import Duty: £10.25
V.A.T.: £73.56
Parcelforce Clearance Fee: £13.50

GRAND TOTAL: £97.31

Can you believe it??????

Satipo

Yes, I can! I pay it on every single delivery I receive. And on leather, of course, as well.

The general rule, when comparing whip prices here and overseas*, is add 17.5% VAT to the price of the whip AND shipping, plus a brokerage/clearance fee (£13.50 if it comes via parcel force, £4 for royal mail**, £11.00 for UPS), plus about 2.5% Duty if the whip is over a certain value (can't remember what that is, off the top of my head).

In the past, most occasional whip buyers importing to the UK have slipped under the radar, but Customs are getting more and more sophisticated so fewer and fewer people will get away with it. In addition, once you've been stung once, you're more than likely start getting charged every time you import something - especially if you make repeat purchases from the same maker.

That said, the pound is very strong against the dollar at the moment, so now is a good time to order from the states. Conversely, it means people like me see a drop in sales from across the water.

There are people out there who will falsify the details on the customs form for you - marking a new whip as second hand, or as something other than it is. But leather whips have an international customs classification and, if your parcel is opened for inspection and the contents are not as described, you could be in trouble. If Customs see evidence that you have conspired to falsify the documentation in order to evade taxes, they consider that to be smuggling. You do not want to fall foul of Customs!

* Importing from other EU countries is, I believe, usually VAT and Customs exempt - but not always.
** If not sent by UPS or similar, almost all incoming international parcels are delivered by Parcel Force.

How did you find out about the whip lessons? Circus Space?

Dave
English Whips
www.whipstore.com

btw now might be a good time to plug London and South East Whip Crackers on Yahoo. V.v. quiet at present, but it would be nice to see it take off..... http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/lsewhipcrackers/

D

Satipo · Post by **Satipo** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:36 am

How did you find out about the whip lessons? Circus Space?

Bingo! Good guess!

Adios,

Satipo

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:34 pm

Great looking bullwhip Sapito! How are the lessons coming along?

Thanks for letting people know about the Import duty/tax. Unfortunately it's an added hassle that not everyone always takes into account. If it makes you feel any better I’ve know some folks who ordered Jackets from the U.K. in the past and gotten some pretty stiff and unexpected import duties tacked on to the cost too.

While there is certainly some very fine whip makers in Europe, If you want a Morgan bullwhip it seems like there going to cost you one way or the other. Still Dave from English Whips does fantastic work and is a pretty good whip handler in his own right, you’d be able to learn a lot from their group. Nick Whiskeyman (when he’s not retired

) alos makes great also makes a very fine Indy bullwhip.

In any case I am glad to see you got your Morgan bullwhip, It’s a beauty so enjoy and keep it cracking!

Dan

Satipo · Post by **Satipo** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:56 am

Thanks, Dan. I just needed to express my financial pain and thought it'd be good to keep people up-to-date about the extra charges they can incur from international orders. I was also kind of hoping someone would tell me I can claim it back, but no such luck!

I have to say I really love the whip. Just a bit frustrated I can't get out more often to practice with it. The lesson was very good, but tiring - 2 hours straight! We tended to use his six feet whips more as they were really broken in and it was easier to move them through acute angles to form the all important loop. The Morgan is quite stiff at the moment and a hefty thing to try to do precise movements with. I need to use it more in between lessons to break it in I think. It's easy to do an overhead crack with it, but everything else seems to be hard work.

Do you have any suggestions about the best cracks to do at this early stage to help gently break in the whip? Maybe some I should avoid for risk of damaging it?

Thanks again for the warning about the price increase - makes me feel better about the customs charges.

Adios,

Satipo

ANZAC_1915 · Post by **ANZAC_1915** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:54 am

Satipo wrote:I need to use it more in between lessons to break it in I think. It's easy to do an overhead crack with it, but everything else seems to be hard work.

That has also been my experience with my new Morgan 10ft, and I also wish I had more time to get out and practice, I'm always heading somewhere for something.

Luckily I have the perfect yard for whip practice, 2.5 acres with about 1 acre of grass! (of course I prefer the grass to be dry, which it isn't very often here)

Satipo · Post by **Satipo** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:35 am

You're very lucky to have all that space. I'm still looking out for inconspicuous locations.

Adios,

Satipo

Canada Jones · Post by **Canada Jones** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:12 pm

Satipo wrote:Thanks guys - I aim to get A LOT of enjoyment out of this toy! It's a wonderful gift from my wonderful girlfriend!

Adios,

Satipo

Does she have a sister? (my birthday is approaching).
Canada

Satipo · Post by **Satipo** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:33 am

I'm afraid the best I can offer you is her brother, but he's got a girlfriend.

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:13 pm

Satipo, I feel your pain my friend

I’m glad I was able to give you the heads up on the price increase though, I know every little bit helps. A 10 ft whip can be a lot of whip to handle especially after practicing with 6 fts, you have to give it a bit more time to let it go where its going to go, so it slows it down a bit. Keep with it though, you’ll get it.

The best way anyone can break in a new whip, aside from sending it to me and letting me do it is just to use it use it the way you would normally and let it break in gradually. While its been a while since i had to break in a break in a brand new Morgan bullwhip, i seem to remember that they start to break in relatively quickly once you start working with them. The best cracks I have found to help, especially with longer whips are the circus or cattlemen’s crack and the overhead. Do them nice and easy, don’t put too much strength or muscle in to it when throwing, avoid snapping your wrist and just let the whip do the work. Practice on trying to make the whip crack softly rather then seeking the loudest possible crack and avoid using your whip on any hard rough surface and don’t hitting any solid objects with it.

Whip maker Mike Murphy has also suggested that you can gently flex the whip back and forth in your hands while rotating it to break it in faster but for the most part it’s really not recommend to try to rush it along. Also avoid the temptation to use any type of leather dressings or oils to try to loosen it up.

Dan

ANZAC_1915 · Post by **ANZAC_1915** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:22 pm

BullWhipBorton wrote:Whip maker Mike Murphy has also suggested that you can gently flex the whip back and forth in your hands while rotating it to break it in faster but for the most part it’s really not recommend to try to rush it along. Also avoid the temptation to use any type of leather dressings or oils to try to loosen it up.

Dan

DM did suggest starting with one application of Peccards, but not on the handle.

Is it worth coiling it up for storage the same direction every time, or a different way every time?

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:10 pm

Aside from the fall, usually a whip is plaited with enough grease or plaiting soap so that is doesn’t need any additional leather dressing at first, but if its been sitting around his shop for a bit then a light coat of Pecards wouldn’t it wont hurt it. I don’t recommend just using leather dressing just to loosen the whip up though, David would probably agree with that. Also like he said, Don’t use any leather dressing on the handle or on any knots, you want to keep them tight.

Yeah, You’ll notice that these bullwhips have a natural curve to them where that will want to bend more easily one way or the other. You’ll use that to your advantage when cracking the whip so try to always throw the whip out with that curve on top or on bottom but not side to side, does that make sense? Also don’t force it to coil in the other direction. As for storage, Its best to store it either by keeping it loosely coiled in it's natural curve or if you have the space, by hanging up by the wrist loop and let the whip lay out straight uncoiled.

Dan

genexs · Post by **genexs** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:19 pm

Hi:

Satipo, congrats on your new whip. IMHO, the 10 foot is the sweet spot lenght for this whip. I agree with the advice you've gotten so far here: I'd hold off hitting it with the Pecards for until you've had a few sessions cracking it. Purchase a little soft nylon brush, like the one you'd use to clean under your nails or use to remove soil from shoes and boots. After you've been outside cracking for a while, inspect your whip. If it's picked up any dirt, first try to wipe it off with a cloth. Then use the brush for any more messy spots. (Also, if you don't have one now, pick up a 'fid' for untangling your fall and cracker.)

I think it's great you are learning with whips that are already broken it. Heh, learning while breaking in on the same whip will be a bit stressful for the both parties. Also, it will be easy for you to translate what you've learned on the shorter whips to the longer one.

Dan mentioned Murphy's excellent whip care DVD. It's really worth having.
best,
Gene
http://www.signalwhip.org

Satipo · Post by **Satipo** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:17 am

Thanks for the advice, Dan and Gene.

IMHO, the 10 foot is the sweet spot lenght for this whip.

Curious to know why that is.

And where can I get a 'fid'?

thefish · Post by **thefish** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:40 am

You can make a fid. Just take a phillips head screwdriver to a wheel grinder, and grind it down to a point. It doesn't have to be icepick sharp.

Congrats on the new whip, by the way!

-The Other Dan

genexs · Post by **genexs** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:21 pm

Satipo wrote:Thanks for the advice, Dan and Gene.

IMHO, the 10 foot is the sweet spot lenght for this whip.
Curious to know why that is.

And where can I get a 'fid'?

Hiya:

A 'fid' is a handy tool that every whip cracker should have. They are also called lacing or scratching awls. Any leather craft store should carry them. In the US, Tandy has them (the Scratch Awl #3217-00, which has a sharp point and is great for untangling a cracker, or the Lacing and Stitching Fid #3056-00, which is great for getting knots out of your fall).

http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/prod ... er=3056-00
http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/prod ... er=3217-00

Mike Murphy sells a nice awl, and Peter Jack offers a custom made one.

About my comments regarding the 'sweet spot'...

From DM, I have the 6 foot, 8 foot, and 10 foot lengths of this whip. (I should point out the 10 foot is a special order black, and the 6 foot is the 16 plait special order he offered a few years ago.) In the 6 and 8 foot, the 'balance' (a very subjective concept) seems toward the handle. In other words, center of gravity seems more toward you, and not out into the thong. That is not a bad thing in itself--by any means. In fact, this is how some people prefer their whips. But on the 10 foot, the weight seems more evenly distributed, the center of gravity being a bit past the front knot and out into the thong a ways. I think I wrote about this here on some other thread, but the 10 foot starts to give you the feel of a long whip, something you just can't get from a 6 or 8 foot. My 10 footer moves very beautifully and smoothly, and seems to always do everything I ask it. This is not to say that the 8 or 6 foot are not great whips, it's just that for me, I sometimes have to put in a tad more 'umph'-- or alter may timing a bit--to get them to heal. Of course, other's mileage vary.

Once again, congrats on your whip. When you get good and the whip is well broken in, you'll be able to produce a thunderous crack with it.

best,
Gene

Warning - British Bullwhip Tax

Warning - British Bullwhip Tax

Re: Warning - British Bullwhip Tax