If Indys 'Traveling Hat' Is Supposedly Grey,Then Why,,,,,

[Bufflehead Jones]

It's not in any interview. Have you read this entire thread? :idea: It is in personal phone conversations with Steven Spielberg himself. Here is one of them. If you just sit back and relax, in time, this whole situation will be much clearer.

Sorry if I missed an obvious link somewhere, but where did Spielberg confirm all of this?

Definitely grey in Raiders and brown in LC.

Adios,
Satipo

On the phone - about a month or two ago now?

[Bufflehead Jones]

You might also want to review this little passage from earlier in this thread.

Good question as to consistency, but I'd go back to the fact that in RotLA he was traveling in a blue suits, while in LC he traveled in a more informal brown suit.

We have positive confirmation directly from Spielberg that the traveling hat in Raiders was grey and that this was a conscious decision into which he had direct knowledge and input. He was quite adamant about it and it is the kind of detail the man gets into. In that respect, he would be right at home with this crowd in many ways.

Mike is correct - my confirmation I can divulge, but the person who deserves credit for first confirming it needs to keep on the qt for the interim...

[Mark Brody]

But Mike never actually said anything about that hat, only that the story was explained (but not to us). And _ only mentions that the grey hat in Raiders was confirmed to be a conscious decision. There's no mention of the Venice Pier hat. Hopefully they'll pop their heads back in a clear this up a bit. Their posts were kinda vague (perhaps intentionally).

[fatwoul]

Nobody has discussed different film stocks. Allow me…

Like with 35mm stills film, 35mm movie film is available in different colour balances, for use with different lighting situations.

Daylight-balanced film is used for outdoor daytime scenes, but a film balanced for use with redheads (tungsten lights to you and me) is used where artificial tungsten lighting is being used.

The problem is that this film is only available in fixed balances, so in mixed lighting situations, the DOP (in this case Douglas Slocombe) would have to choose what balance of film to use.

To give you an idea of how substantial this difference can be, I’ve taken some pictures of my Federation Dlx under different lighting, using different colour balances.

Before I show you the pictures, there are a couple of caveats to this. First, I am using white balance modes on a digital camera, not different white balances of 35mm film. For the purposes of this demonstration, these are essentially the same anyway. Second, I have substituted daylight for flash, because it is the middle of the night, and I didn't want to wait until tomorrow to post this. Most modern flashes are designed to approximate daylight, so again, this can be ignored.

Here is a picture of my Fed Dlx under daylight, using daylight “film”:



…and here it is again, this time shot on tungsten “film”, under tungsten lighting:



As you can see, other than a slight difference in the actual exposure, the colours are pretty close. This is precisely the intention of different films for different situations –to maintain the same apparent colours under different lighting.

But what if we switch the two over? Here is daylight “film” under tungsten lighting:



And lastly, the hat photographed on tungsten “film”, under daylight:



As you can see, the range of colours it is possible a hat could look very different, simply by the use of lighting and film stock.
So why would Slocombe choose tungsten film in a day-lit scene? Perhaps because he had to make a judgement call in a scene with mixed lighting; in this case, the interior of a 1930s Pan-Am Clipper, with little interior lightbulbs, and fairly small windows letting in daylight. Whether or not the interior lights were going to be switched on for the scene doesn't really matter as I will get to shortly. As we can see, they are not on. However, out of the window, the daylight is clearly visible, and appears fairly blue on film, which supports my theory that tungsten film was being used in this scene.

“OK” a person my reply “but why would a he choose tungsten film in a scene where Dr Jones’s face is shown in close-up, under the daylight from a window? Surely it would have made more sense to use daylight film for the scene.” Well, perhaps, but at this point I need to point out that throughout the day, the colour temperature of the sky is constantly changing, from dawn to dusk, and depending on the weather. At midday on a sunny day, daylight is much yellower than, for example, later on as evening approaches. Where you are geographically can even come into play – the light in the Mediterranean is appreciated by painters for its warmth, but a look out over the Blue Mountains of Australia shows a blue tinge to the sky, because of the eucalyptus oil in the air.

So, depending on what time of day it was when the Clipper scene was filmed, the Slocombe may have decided that, since the outside lighting was fairly yellow, he could get away with using tungsten film, which would then adequately represent the lighting both from the sky, and the interior bulbs of the aircraft. What’s more, if the daylight at that time was particularly yellow, the resulting effect on the colour of the hat would be less exaggerated than the blue in my last image; instead, it is quite conceivable that instead, this blueness would be much reduced, leaving the fedora a shade of grey.

I will end by pointing out that I’m not saying it’s the same hat – we already know they got through dozens of hats through the making of these films – but I am saying that is perfectly feasible for a brown hat to look grey (and in fact, vice versa).

[Bufflehead Jones]

Their posts were kinda vague (perhaps intentionally).

[Mark Brody]

Very interesting fatwoul. Clearly, I am not trained in the ways of the photographer. Not to discredit your theory, but it doesn't account for the scene at the end of Raiders where we once again see him wearing the grey hat (in much better light this time).

[fatwoul]

...Not to discredit your theory...

Not at all - any theory needs to be rigorously tested.

...but it doesn't account for the scene at the end of Raiders where we once again see him wearing the grey hat (in much better light this time).

Well, again that depends on how the scene was lit. If big redheads were pulled in to supplement the daylight (for whatever reason - maybe if shooting overran and it was a little darker than they expected, or if the sky was overcast), then again, different film stock may have been used. I suppose it might seem unlikely for both scenes to have been lit the same way, just when he happened to be wearing his blue suit, but then, that could be another reason tungsten lighting would be used - to very slightly warm up Ford's face, which may have looked a little more blue/washed out, with bluer light reflecting off his suit up onto his face.

There are a million creative decisions that took place during the film we will never be privvy to, and perhaps nobody even remembers anymore, so my bet is that this hat deal will probably remain a unsolved.

A bit like the ark locked away in its crate. Hey, nifty RotLA tie-in huh?

[Bufflehead Jones]

There are a million creative decisions that took place during the film we will never be privvy to,

Unless you call Spielberg on the phone and ask him!

[binkmeisterRick]

Come on, Bufflehead, let me buy you a drink. We both know that this argument will never die, even though we've heard the answer straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak. I find it interesting that every single aspect of the hat color has been debated before (including the light differences and why all the other brown and grey hats in the same scenes still look decidedly brown and grey, even though they're affected by the same lighting as Ford's hat). But you folks have every right to keep debating it, as long as things remain civil. Personally, I base my decision off of what the man himself says (and what my eyes tell me), but you guys keeping having fun.

[binkmeisterRick]

Oh,no,no,I'm still brown hat man,not that itreally matters to me anymore. I just don't buy a 20 year old memory of a 60 some-odd year old dude that suddenly just says the hat was a grey 'travel hat'. My eyes tell me different. I'm just not interested in debating it anymore. ;-)

TR

You know, this comment got me thinking. I trust Spielberg's memory completly. Do you want to know why? I remember visiting my late great uncle about five years ago. He was slow to get around and hard of hearing, but his mind was still as sharp as a tack. Oh, and he was 103 at the time. He shared with us stories and songs he remembered word for word from when HE was in kindergarden. And the volumes of stories and details still in his head astounded us. He kept all of that until he passed away a couple years at the ripe old age of 105. So, trust the 20 year old memory of a 60 some-odd year old director? You betcha.

[Bufflehead Jones]

Not going to trust Spielberg! That's a hoot. Paying very close attention to detail has caused him to be one of the best ever at his craft. He has 3 billion dollars that show he is pretty good at it.





(even though he requested no salary for making Schindler's list, interesting little tidbit)

[Bufflehead Jones]

Are you SURE!

[Bufflehead Jones]

I have a copy of that Life magazine, and the colors on screen look pretty accurate.

[Minnesota Jones]

Man, all I can add to this is.... 'batter up!

[Bufflehead Jones]

Maybe Indy had a ziplight in his lucky lighter?

[Ripper]

Maybe Indy had a ziplight in his lucky lighter?

........................it was a bic .

[fatwoul]

Pictures of the hat alone under various lighting is neat and all, though it'd be great to see how the lighting affects other items as well - not just the hat. We'll be able to see other items go off-color, too - which they don't in the plane scene...

As I explained, the sky does.

The examples I photographed were, as I explained, approximations, and exaggerated compared the effect that would take place under mixed lighting. If we are supposing for a moment that the lighting in the Clipper scene was sufficient to make a brown hat look grey, then that lighting balance is not as over-the-top as the situation which rendered my hat bright blue. The effect of mixed lighting could make this blue far less pronounced, depending on the ratio of daylight:tungsten being used.

How different items change colour under different lights also varies, depending on (for example) the amount of IR and UV-reflectivity they possess.

Unless...
Maybe Indy's suit on the seaplane was burgundy? Maybe the brown hat the magazine reading "Nazi" is wearing is actually gray and they just lit it differently to look more brown on the plane, too. But -
If the Nazi's brown hat can somehow look brown on the plane, why would Indy's signature brown hat suddenly look gray?...

As I explained above, it would depend what sort of brown each hat was. We'd need to have a side-by-side comparison of the Nazi's brown hat in the Clipper scene and in another scene. I don't recall the Nazi wearing the brown hat in any other scene.

The hat was gray, for crying out loud!...

Maybe it was. I don't really care either way - I'm less interested in the idea of the guy carrying two hats about than I am the possibilities of inaccurate colour rendition.

I was pointing out how nobody had considered varying film stock and lighting, and how that can play a significant role in altering the apparent colours of things.

(Believe me, they didn't "trick" the lighting on the same set just to shade a fxxxgxn hat to look better with the suit. )

I didn't suggest that the lighting was "tricked"; even Mr Spielberg and Mr Lucas can't alter the properties of the electromagnetic spectrum.

My point was that a DOP may, under different circumstances, be forced to make use of film stock with a different colour balance, to adequately represent the colour of a scene. In any mixed lighting situation, the choice of film will always be a compromise.

[fatwoul]

I have a copy of that Life magazine, and the colors on screen look pretty accurate.

Would this be the Life Magazine in black and white, with only a red logo?

[Fedora]

I am of the opinion that even if Spielberg himself posted here, there would still be some who would not believe it.

And I have no doubt that if the new film has a gray hat, the same argument will continue.
Fedora

[Bufflehead Jones]

fatwoul, I hate to be the one that imforms you of this. But, this argument has raged for years. Nothing you have stated is new. It has all been rehashed time and time again.

Your knowlege of film, color, and light is exceptional. But, your predecessors have already raised all of these points. Just do a search on this subject on this forum, and you can read for hours.

What can not be explained away with any kind of technical jargon, is that the same guy has directed all three previous movies, and he is in the process of directing the fourth. He has stated very recently, on more than one occasion, that it has always been his idea, that Indiana Jones has more than one hat. He has his beat up adventure hat, and he has a nice travel hat. He was adamant about the fact that in Raiders, Indy's travel hat, that he wore with the blue suit, was gray.

Spielberg is directing Indy IV. I really don't think the man is suffering from dimensia or any type of memory loss. Since he is adamant about Indy having more than one hat, I think you can probably take it to the bank that Indy will wear more than just his beat up, brown adventure hat in the new film. Since none of us have seen the new film, we don't know how many different colors of hats he may wear in this film. Personally, I am hoping for purple. But, I am sure that there will be a few on this forum that will try to say that Indy's purple hat is really his brown adventure hat and it appeared purple due to the lighting, or the film used.

[Johnny Fedora]

I am of the opinion that even if Spielberg himself posted here, there would still be some who would not believe it.

Fedora

I believe, I believe...now.

Johnny

[Mike]

I am of the opinion that even if Spielberg himself posted here, there would still be some who would not believe it.

He would've mis-typed!

But Mike never actually said anything about that hat, only that the story was explained (but not to us)....Their posts were kinda vague (perhaps intentionally).

BINGO. But if I was a betting man, I'd pay some attention to Fedora's post at the top of the page. That's as un-vague as I'll get at this point.

[Bufflehead Jones]

I have a copy of that Life magazine, and the colors on screen look pretty accurate.

Would this be the Life Magazine in black and white, with only a red logo?

Ahhhh, yep. That would be the one. The red box with the bright white lettering in the logo and the band at the bottom came out very accurate. And, the black and white photo looked good. And of course, the color ads on the back page even look accurate.

[fatwoul]

fatwoul, I hate to be the one that imforms you of this. But, this argument has raged for years. Nothing you have stated is new. It has all been rehashed time and time again...

I'm sure you're right - Like i said, I don't really care about the grey hat thing enough to have searched. That said, the issues I raised had not been brought up in this thread on the subject, so there was no harm done by putting them here.

As you say, this is something that has been argued for years, so I doubt very much that anything said in this thread isn't a mere re-iteration of something that has been said before.

Your comment could just as easily address the entire thread, not just my particular comments.

...And, the black and white photo looked good. And of course, the color ads on the back page even look accurate.

Assuming that both magazines came of the same print run, using the same batches of ink and paper, and were both kept in the same conditions for the following 50 years.

Hey what do you know? I can be a smart*** too.

[binkmeisterRick]

fatwoul, don't take anything personal in here. It's just that it's been debated so much in the past that there's little left to gain except for finding the physical hat itself! And even if that hat did present itself, and the skies opened up and a voice fell from above declaring it, there'd STILL be a debate!

[agent5]

I have a copy of that Life magazine, and the colors on screen look pretty accurate.

True, but that was a different set-up, a different shot in the film.

It's just that it's been debated so much in the past that there's little left to gain except for finding the physical hat itself!

That's exactly my take. We do have Spielberg telling someone here that the hat was grey and yet the costume designer of the film who states he had no grey hat. Now, I'm sure there are those who take Spielberg's word as the word of God, but we still have two conflicting reports from two heavyweights at the top of the production ladder taken from memory over 27 years ago. I will not be completely convinced until the hat surfaces, although my bet is now on grey.

I'm still at a loss though on where anyone ever came up with the theory that he wore his hero hat on the plane. I've never thought it was anything other than a dress hat to go with the suit, grey or brown, however you like it.

[fatwoul]

fatwoul, don't take anything personal in here...

I'm not taking anything personally. I grew out of that type of internet arguing a long while ago.

I did find the tone a little unnecessary, and so returned in kind, that's all. Nothing wrong with a little nudge to hint that a person can bite back.

It's just that it's been debated so much in the past that there's little left to gain except for finding the physical hat itself! And even if that hat did present itself, and the skies opened up and a voice fell from above declaring it, there'd STILL be a debate!

Which is very unlikely to happen, rendering this thread and those like it pretty pointless. It just seems to me that someone who knows enough to shoot down someone else in that fashion should also know better than to bother with the thread in the first place.

Really, threads like this are a bit like the religious chat rooms MSN used to run - anybody remember them? The only fun to be had in there was baiting the believers, because you were never going to change anybody's mind. Ever. As Fedora mentioned, even a grey hat itself, right before their eyes, would not convince some people.

[Texas Raider]

I really didn't mean for this to turn into the grey/brown debate, but let me suggest this to you-

When Raiders was being made, it was a new concept. Basically a guy with a brown hat,jacket, etc.
Yes the hat was important at that time, but do you think that so much thought went into it that they manufactured this "travel hat" being grey idea at that time? During those days, the simplicity of the brown hat was the most prevelant idea. I just wonder if Speilberg isn't just riding his own coat tails and popularity and NOW acting like more thought went into it than actually did. Superstars do this a lot in retrospect, it's nothing new, just watch an interview with a star and the simplest thing will be sensationalized (if the movie was a success).
I've never doubted Speilbergs attention to detail and such. That's actually one (of the few) things I like about him. I'm just saying that now Indy is HUGE, he could come back and say anything about it, when we know it was kind of chaotic, rushed, raw kind of making of the movie at the time. People were sick, hot, tired ,we have conflicting stories about this hat, etc. I've seen my hat do exactly what that plane scene hat does, and mine is brown. Until the hat turns up, as said, we'll never know.
This is all I'm going to say on it, cause this debate is old

TR

[agent5]

When Raiders was being made, it was a new concept. Basically a guy with a brown hat,jacket, etc.
Yes the hat was important at that time, but do you think that so much thought went into it that they manufactured this "travel hat" being grey idea at that time?

It was nothing new. The basic costume idea's came off of old films and serials they liked. They just added a few things, but the basics were already there. I think that alot of thought went into and goes into any hero costume for any film. That's the job of the costume designer and I think they take it very seriously. They just don't do things on a whim. Alot of pre-planning takes place. Once filming begins they may derive from the script or something but the costume and set designs require alot of pre-planning.

we know it was kind of chaotic, rushed, raw kind of making of the movie at the time.

It is true that the actual filming was done in this way but pre-production was not.

[ydam]

... How did Luke Skywalker go to the bathroom in his x-wing....

the same way the astronauts on the shuttle go to the bathroom....the real question is how does darth vade go to the bathroom? i figure it's a big ordeal....kinda like when you suit up for hockey and then you feel the urge to go. that *****

sorry...i am just gettin around to reading this thread, but i think that this clip from conan obrien might clear up the whole darth vader havin to take care of business....enjoy ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2bhsv82HRA

Oh...you also get to see Indys original whip in this

[Bufflehead Jones]

I really didn't mean for this to turn into the grey/brown debate, but let me suggest this to you-

This is all I'm going to say on it, cause this debate is old

TR

Ummmm....who started this thread, anyway?

[Texas Raider]

I started it, but the original thread was just referring to the "Travel Hat always being grey" continuity,,because it wasn't in the Venice Pier scene,that's what the thread is supposed to be about, Buff

TR

[Bufflehead Jones]

Oh, that's simple then. Indy's travel hat in the Venice Pier scene was brown. How's that?










Unless, it was really gray and the sun's rays at that time of day hit the hat just right when it bounced off of a brown boat nearby, and mixed with the movie lighting and the type of film used it just made the undertones of the gray hat appear brown.


Just kidding!

[Castor Dioscuri]

PEOPLE! Is it THAT hard to BELIEVE that INDY has THREE hats? Oh my god! It can't be possible! I can't possible compute that! That is too much information to process! How would he be able to have MORE than one hat? Why would he be able to have a DRESS hat... No wait, TWO dress hats! A brown and a gray dress hat? AS WELL AS HIS ADVENTURE HAT? HOW? CAN... NOT... UNDERSTAND...

[Dr.Seuss]

Debate:
A contention by words or arguments: * * * : a regulated discussion of a proposition between two matched sides

Dogma:
Something held as an established opinion; a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds

Discussion:
Consideration of a question in open and usually informal debate: a formal treatment of a topic in speech or writing .

I, choose Door Number 3.

Sincerely,

[Renderking Fisk]

I don't mean to add more fuel to the fire here. Well... ok, just a little.

I wrote a similar post to this debate in a different thread that almost matches the thoughts of Fatwoul. I was in a pub that was lit using unconventional light bulbs. I'm guessing halogen. My wife was one of the first to notice that the Akubra Deluxe I was wearing looked indeed "Gray." Under the right conditions... "Gray Happens."

In fact, I cleaned my Adventurebilt with some naphtha and some lint free cloth and people insisted (almost demanded) that I got a new fedora. Lighting, dust... a world of difference.

I totally believe the fedora on the dock before Jones boarded the plane was gray. Simply because Spielberg said it was, and for anyone who knows men's wear... if you can afford it... gray fedora, blue suit, black shoes.

... Unless you're a clown like me and will wear a brown fedora with a blue suit, black shoes and have all three colors in the tie to bring it all together. Which I have done. And will do again.

Here's a question for you, though... how many here have thought about buying a gray fedora just because of this argument/debate and never thought of doing so before?

[Dr.Seuss]

I totally believe the fedora on the dock before Jones boarded the plane was gray. Simply because Spielberg said it was, and for anyone who knows men's wear... if you can afford it... gray fedora, blue suit, black shoes.

Grey (gray), with a blue suit; no question. It is inconceivable the nefarious Dr. Jones did not have enough "ka ching," to buy the proper color hat.

Sincerely,

[Alaska Smith]

As a train station extra I can tell you that in IJ4 you will see exactly how he can wear one hat while silmultaneously travelling with another hat that does not loose its shape.

[Indiana G]

that's easy......you stack the other on on the one you're already wearing!.......next question???

[Glurrk]

You people are all nuts. That hat looks multicolored to me!



(Yeah, this is the umpteenth time I've posted that pic. It's also the umpteenth time the subject has come up, too!)

[Ripper]

......odds are if he WERE wearing that hat, the color would be debated as well .

[Mark Brody]

So what are you saying, we all have to rush out and buy propeller beanies? Come to think of it, if Indy can wear it, it must not be THAT bad...

[Glurrk]

So what are you saying, we all have to rush out and buy propeller beanies? Come to think of it, if Indy can wear it, it must not be THAT bad...

(from another thread, quoting myself)

I hope everyone realizes how different of a movie it would have been if Indy's hat had indeed been a fully functional propeller beanie:

Indy: Too bad the Hovitos don't know you the way I do, Belloq.
Belloq: Yes... you could warn them, if only you spoke Hovitos!
(Belloq turns and faces the Hovitos.)
Indy: I'm outta here.
(Indy reaches up, gives the propeller a spin, and deftly flies out of danger, allowing Jock to continue fishing undisturbed.)

Or:

Indy: They're going to fly the ark out of here.
Marion: What can we do?
Indy: The same thing. This hat's gotten me out many a scrape that way!
I'll hold the ark between my legs, and carry you in my arms. Or should that be the other way around?
Marion: Um...

Come to think of it, the plane fight would have drastically altered too. All Indy would have had to do is give the ol' propeller a spin, lowered his head and charged bull-like into Pat Roach!

Nah... a fedora was the wiser choice, in retrospect...

[The Librarian]

My first post so be gentle.
Since Indy was traveling to find the Ark on the dime of the U.S. Government, he flew first class and dressed appropiately. As was mentioned, dark suits were more formal and proper for traveling first class. He probably then flew to the closest American Embassy to where Marion was, also requiring his dressier hat and suit. Once there he arranged his transportation to the village where Marion was, stored his dressy clothes, including grey hat, at the Embassy. Dressed in his work hat and clothes he set off to get the medallion.
Seems reasonable?

The Librarian

[indy89]

No embassy was mentioned in the novel, but maybe...

[The Librarian]

I was presuming he stayed at an Embassy as the Government might want to keep tabs on how Indy was spending their money. And would have the communication resources to coordinate his passage through whatever countries he needed to get through.

The Librarian

[Jaredraptor]

I was presuming he stayed at an Embassy as the Government might want to keep tabs on how Indy was spending their money. And would have the communication resources to coordinate his passage through whatever countries he needed to get through.

The Librarian

A very good point. Oh, and welcome to COW! You come for the gear, but stay for the people.....at least,I think that's how the motto goes.

[indy89]

Yeah, it's something like that

Jeeze, where's my manners? Welcome, Librarian!

[Satipo]

Anyone seen this image before?



Thought it was good to be able to see the infamous traveling hat in the absence of any obvious movie lighting effects.

Adios,

Satipo

[binkmeisterRick]

Yep, that image has circulated about these threads before, and it's brought just as much controversy!