I was watching the Cairo whip cracking scene, and it occurred to me that Ford is really going for it - really putting a lot of effort into the arm swinging action.
So, I'm curious, do the experts here feel his technique is good or bad in this scene? And what about other whip scenes in Raiders and the other movies?
Adios,
Satipo
Ford's Technique - Good or Bad?
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Indiana G
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thats a good question satipo. i've tried to reenact the "cairo crack" many o times 
he first throws the whip out in order to cock the hammer for a forward crack which he then pulls back to a forward throw....thats the point in time where i get in trouble....the whip it still moving uncontrollabley after the first forward crack so when i try to throw it, the thong of the whip knocks my hat off .....i've been thinking on how to resolve that....perhaps i need to pull the whip back farther before the forward throw in order for it to clear my throwing shoulder 
i watched bernie's video and his whip is quite stiffer than mine just above the handle which gets me to thinking that a forward throw with that particular whip would be easier as it is easier to control the portion of the whip just above your hand. with that in mind, i also contemplated that i can compensate for that with pulling my arm farther back to act more like the stiff portion of the whip.
....its all about playing around with it i guess...but this is all going down the drain when i have to adjust for an extra 2' when the DM comes.
in getting back to your question at hand....in alot of other scenes, it doesn't even show ford using the whip. in tod, i'm sure the whip was already around the thuggee's neck and around willie at the end of the movie when both takes started filming. the part where he whipped the sword out of the thuggee's hand was all quite real though....but other than that, i haven't seen some serious whip play since the cairo crack scene.
he first throws the whip out in order to cock the hammer for a forward crack which he then pulls back to a forward throw....thats the point in time where i get in trouble....the whip it still moving uncontrollabley after the first forward crack so when i try to throw it, the thong of the whip knocks my hat off
.....i've been thinking on how to resolve that....perhaps i need to pull the whip back farther before the forward throw in order for it to clear my throwing shoulder i watched bernie's video and his whip is quite stiffer than mine just above the handle which gets me to thinking that a forward throw with that particular whip would be easier as it is easier to control the portion of the whip just above your hand. with that in mind, i also contemplated that i can compensate for that with pulling my arm farther back to act more like the stiff portion of the whip.
....its all about playing around with it i guess...but this is all going down the drain when i have to adjust for an extra 2' when the DM comes.
in getting back to your question at hand....in alot of other scenes, it doesn't even show ford using the whip. in tod, i'm sure the whip was already around the thuggee's neck and around willie at the end of the movie when both takes started filming. the part where he whipped the sword out of the thuggee's hand was all quite real though....but other than that, i haven't seen some serious whip play since the cairo crack scene.
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Tennessee Smith
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I think it also needs to be noted that the sound of the crack was most likely added in post production by sound engineers. So the place we hear the crack could have been a few frames before or after it was in real time. It also, most likely sounded ike nothing we heard on the screen. 
So it's probably going to be difficult to get the whip to crack and sound just like it did on screen.
So it's probably going to be difficult to get the whip to crack and sound just like it did on screen.
You do an underhand, then a forward (circus) crack, then a forward throw. I do it all the time. Here's a video I made of me cracking my 8' Stenhouse about 1 year ago. I kind of muscled the whip in this video, but my form is much better now (at least I like to think so 
). It's the first combo that I'm doing - only I'm doing it over and over again without much time between them. Tell me if you'd like me to try and make a new one showing it a little better (and slower) and I'll do my best.
For now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdIDMTbyl6Q
EDIT: Erin - if you can get the original trailer from Raiders, you'll see the same Cairo scene, and with real (or at least not so exaggerated sounding) whip cracks. I think the cracks in the final movie are timed correctly, just made to sound a little more menacing.
In Christ,
Shane
). It's the first combo that I'm doing - only I'm doing it over and over again without much time between them. Tell me if you'd like me to try and make a new one showing it a little better (and slower) and I'll do my best.For now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdIDMTbyl6Q
EDIT: Erin - if you can get the original trailer from Raiders, you'll see the same Cairo scene, and with real (or at least not so exaggerated sounding) whip cracks. I think the cracks in the final movie are timed correctly, just made to sound a little more menacing.
In Christ,
Shane
Last edited by McFly on Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Satipo
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I think you're right, Indiana G. Considering Ford had some training, we don't really get to see much of what he can actually do in the movies. Hopefully they'll make up for that in Indy IV!
However, I do remember an impressive clip in the original making of TOD documentary (not the DVD one), where Ford is practicing in a field in Sri Lanka. He swings the whip round over his head before aiming a downward crack at a paper cup on the ground near the camera, knocking it for six, and prompting groans from the watching crew members as he adopts a smug stance. I used to play that clip over and over, I was so impressed.
Great video, IndyMcFly. The sounds are very Raiders, and I'm not just talking about the music!
Adios,
Satipo
However, I do remember an impressive clip in the original making of TOD documentary (not the DVD one), where Ford is practicing in a field in Sri Lanka. He swings the whip round over his head before aiming a downward crack at a paper cup on the ground near the camera, knocking it for six, and prompting groans from the watching crew members as he adopts a smug stance. I used to play that clip over and over, I was so impressed.
Great video, IndyMcFly. The sounds are very Raiders, and I'm not just talking about the music!
Adios,
Satipo
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BullWhipBorton
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Harrison Fords bullwhip work wasn’t all that bad, especially for 25 years ago. Some of it was a bit rough around the edges compared to today’s mindset but Glenn Randall Jr. wasn’t really a “whip expert" or professional "whip coach” he just taught Ford the basics with a bullwhip and did a nice job setting up and choreographing the scenes. The bonus features DVD shows some extra footage of Ford training and practicing with the bullwhip for Raiders of the Lost Ark, so he did put in the time and effort to learn how to use it and he beat himself up in the process
There are some scenes from the original whip fight between Indy and the Cairo swordsmen on this clip you might enjoy watching.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xRnOMLP_EM
The quality isn’t that good, but you can hear the whip cracking in the unedited scenes. Clearer sounds where later edited in to the movies later using sound from Harrison cracking a bullwhip on the back lot of the sound studio.
You can watch me playing around with some similar cracks in the first few seconds of this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_p_Uo40c0U#GU5U2spHI_4
I’m using a 10 ft Morgan there with a bit of improve, I’ll get more footage of going though of the actual Cairo choreography sequence in the next video when i get a chance to make it.
From what I hear there should be some great whip cracking in the new movie, if it doesn’t get edited out it should help make up for the lost scene in Raiders.
BTW great videos Shane, i enjoyed watching those.
Dan
There are some scenes from the original whip fight between Indy and the Cairo swordsmen on this clip you might enjoy watching.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xRnOMLP_EM
The quality isn’t that good, but you can hear the whip cracking in the unedited scenes. Clearer sounds where later edited in to the movies later using sound from Harrison cracking a bullwhip on the back lot of the sound studio.
You can watch me playing around with some similar cracks in the first few seconds of this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_p_Uo40c0U#GU5U2spHI_4
I’m using a 10 ft Morgan there with a bit of improve, I’ll get more footage of going though of the actual Cairo choreography sequence in the next video when i get a chance to make it.
From what I hear there should be some great whip cracking in the new movie, if it doesn’t get edited out it should help make up for the lost scene in Raiders.
BTW great videos Shane, i enjoyed watching those.
Dan
Last edited by BullWhipBorton on Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BullWhipBorton
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Thanks Satipo.
That is a slightly modified crack called the Snake killer/drum roll. It’s adapted from the forward cattlemen’s or vertical circus style crack, so that the whip is cracking down to the ground rather then out at shoulder level, then comes back up towards and over. In this case the popper catches the handkerchief when it cracks and brings it back at you making it easy to catch. I was using a stock whip in that clip. It can be a tricky crack to learn though as it has a habit of wanting to come back right at your face if your not careful. So don’t skimp on the safety gear. It’s also good idea when first leaning it to keep your arm out away from you to the side so that you’re not bringing the whip directly back at you, at least until you get the hang of it.
Dan
That is a slightly modified crack called the Snake killer/drum roll. It’s adapted from the forward cattlemen’s or vertical circus style crack, so that the whip is cracking down to the ground rather then out at shoulder level, then comes back up towards and over. In this case the popper catches the handkerchief when it cracks and brings it back at you making it easy to catch. I was using a stock whip in that clip. It can be a tricky crack to learn though as it has a habit of wanting to come back right at your face if your not careful. So don’t skimp on the safety gear. It’s also good idea when first leaning it to keep your arm out away from you to the side so that you’re not bringing the whip directly back at you, at least until you get the hang of it.
Dan
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Indiana G
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great vids guys!
shane, you're "cairo flash" is all in the vertical plane on throw and recoil whereas fords recoil was brought back over his left shoulder hence making it difficult (at least for me) to go into a forward throw....you have to time the forward throw so that you don't crack your noggin with the thong after its coming back from the recoil of the forward crack. i don't know if i'm making sense....maybe i hit my head too many times with that #### heavy thong of mine!
shane, you're "cairo flash" is all in the vertical plane on throw and recoil whereas fords recoil was brought back over his left shoulder hence making it difficult (at least for me) to go into a forward throw....you have to time the forward throw so that you don't crack your noggin with the thong after its coming back from the recoil of the forward crack. i don't know if i'm making sense....maybe i hit my head too many times with that #### heavy thong of mine!
In a brief scene on the DVD making of - Harrison tells the kid (can't remember his name) who plays Short Round about whip cracking. He mentions that although he looks like he's really muscling the whip, in actual fact it can be cracked very gently. So he obviously DID know something about whipcracking.
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Satipo
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I guess Ford being in character and acting scared/anxious could come into his whip performance. After all, even the most confident whip expert would feel a little intimidated by a gang of sword-wielding assassins closing in on him! And, who knows, maybe Ford's desire to finish shooting quickly due to his stomach complaint could have something to do with it. 
Dan, going back to your video for a second, my favourite crack is at 1.20 when you show that flower who's the boss with an interesting, low, overhead type of crack. It looks very cool, like some kind of martial arts samurai sword move. What do you call it?
BTW, to everyone who is able to make whip-cracking vids of themselves and post them on YouTube, please make more, as there are not nearly enough, in my opinion. And try not to let your opening credits obscure your opening moves (not mentioning any names ... Dan - oops!
#)!
Adios,
Satipo
Dan, going back to your video for a second, my favourite crack is at 1.20 when you show that flower who's the boss with an interesting, low, overhead type of crack. It looks very cool, like some kind of martial arts samurai sword move. What do you call it?
BTW, to everyone who is able to make whip-cracking vids of themselves and post them on YouTube, please make more, as there are not nearly enough, in my opinion. And try not to let your opening credits obscure your opening moves (not mentioning any names ... Dan - oops!
#)!Adios,
Satipo
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BullWhipBorton
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Shane, Over the years I’ve been very fortunate to work with and learn from many whip artists, enthusiasts, stunt people and fight choreographers; as well as through various training videos and DVDs, basically anywhere I could learn something new from. All of it helped but mostly it’s just practice, practice and more practice. The thing is, whips and whip cracking for me is my passion, I love it, I practice when ever I can, I teach others and I find that the more I learn the more want to know. It’s been a big part of my life for over 23 years now and I’ve met some great people and have a lot of fun because of it.
Your on a great start, you’ve got a lot of the techniques down, Much of what I’m doing is the same stuff just put together with continuous follow throughs, various timing variations and plane changes and a bit of flash here and there for fun. Just ease up a little, let the whip do the work and Keep practicing. I look forward to seeing more of your videos.
Rob you’re absolutely right, combat choreography is often exaggerated to draw out and enhance the drama of the fight, I don't know if that was the case of Raiders of the Lost Ark, but I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with Indy 4 knowing the whip coach’s preference for a more fluidic, precise rolling style of whip work that looks really good on screen, it should be interesting.
Satipo, I just call that a low overhead or horizontal crack, in that case iI happen to use it to cut a target. One of my former mentors was heavily interested in the martial arts & theatrical applications of the whip, I've learned a lot from him and it shows though on occasion. I also turned the whip slightly in my hand though to utilize the natural curve of the whip, this changes the style of the throw slightly and allows for a more graceful and controlled roll out that keeps the whip in frame.
Regarding titles, I'll keep that in mind in the future too.
Dan
Your on a great start, you’ve got a lot of the techniques down, Much of what I’m doing is the same stuff just put together with continuous follow throughs, various timing variations and plane changes and a bit of flash here and there for fun. Just ease up a little, let the whip do the work and Keep practicing. I look forward to seeing more of your videos.
Rob you’re absolutely right, combat choreography is often exaggerated to draw out and enhance the drama of the fight, I don't know if that was the case of Raiders of the Lost Ark, but I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with Indy 4 knowing the whip coach’s preference for a more fluidic, precise rolling style of whip work that looks really good on screen, it should be interesting.
Satipo, I just call that a low overhead or horizontal crack, in that case iI happen to use it to cut a target. One of my former mentors was heavily interested in the martial arts & theatrical applications of the whip, I've learned a lot from him and it shows though on occasion. I also turned the whip slightly in my hand though to utilize the natural curve of the whip, this changes the style of the throw slightly and allows for a more graceful and controlled roll out that keeps the whip in frame.
Regarding titles, I'll keep that in mind in the future too.
Dan
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BendingOak
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whips
Borton, I just saw one of your vids and all I can say is wow.
Oak - yeah, he's terrible, huh? I was just asking where he learned so I could tell him to get a refund. 
Seriously though - it all looks very awesome. Are there any DVDs you might recommend? DeLongis or Allen maybe? I do have the "New Bullwhip Book" but I'm sure it helps to have a moving visual sometimes. I just can't get down those volleys!
In Christ,
Shane
Seriously though - it all looks very awesome. Are there any DVDs you might recommend? DeLongis or Allen maybe? I do have the "New Bullwhip Book" but I'm sure it helps to have a moving visual sometimes. I just can't get down those volleys!
In Christ,
Shane
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BendingOak
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whips
mcfly, I have the same book and it's helpfull but not as helpfull as some of the vids I've seen. I couldn't get the overhead crack at all until I saw Bortons vid and something in my head just made the connection. I wen't out to try it and it was like i was doing it for sometime.
Just made a video today - I'll try and get it up tomorrow. Meanwhile - let me just say that if you do it slow and relaxed, it looks fine. But if you (or at least me) try and go as fast as Ford does (granted he's fending off attackers) it sort of looks muscled. I did my best to keep from looking like I have horrible form. I did a few cracks at the beginning to show I can do cracks properly.
In Christ,
Shane
In Christ,
Shane
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BullWhipBorton
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Shane, Unfortunately there’s no one video that really shows you everything, so the more you can get the better off you’ll be. The New Bullwhip Book is a very nice reverence to have, it’s a handy source of information but is not the best teaching tool for hands on work.
Since your working with the Indy style bullwhips mostly, I think Whip Cracking made easy 1 and 2 would help you out, Mark Allen and Alex Green do a very nice job taking you through each crack, target work and into some basic multiple cracking routines in those tapes. I know you’ve been cracking whips for a while, but I would recommend getting both in the set, Not only will it help strengthen your foundation knowledge, but also it can help work out any bad habits that are easily develop while teaching yourself.
Anthony’s Mastering the Bullwhip DVDs are very good too, he is very straightforward about taking you through everything you need to know. His techniques are different, but the principles of whip handling are basically the same. He focusus on using less energy to get better results and teaches a more fluid like flow, utilizing the rolling motion of the whip and body. Depending on whom you talk to, some people like that style, some don’t. I’m one of the ones that do so I think that they very much worth getting, especially now as we are probably going to see some of that come in to play in Indy 4.
If Paul Stenhouse ever gets around to making more copies of his video, I’d also recommended that too. His DVD was a great bridge between the American styles of whip cracking and the Australian styles. If you want to see some really fancy whip cracking, check out Mike Murphy’s and Simon Martins DVDs. Most of what they are doing works is better done with stock whips, but you’ll still get a lot out of them and be able to apply what you’ve leaned with bullwhips. Adam Winrich also has one floating around too, I haven’t seen it yet, but I hear he has some amazing stuff on it, I’ am not sure if its currently available though.
Volleys can be a tough crack to get the hang of, they are also more challenging to do with short handled bullwhips so don’t get discouraged. When doing them your wrist should act like a pivot point that moves the handle of the whip back and forth. The first crack of the volley is done turning your wrist and forarm down and the second crack of the volley is done by turning your wrist and forarm back up flicking the whip behind you then following through again by turning your wrist and forarm down again and so forth in a motion kinda like windshield wiper. It also helps to have your whip slightly angled out and away from you as your cracking and keep that angle consistent while doing the set. As you start to get the back and forth motion going, a good exercises is to start slow, then speed up, then slow down again, etc. It helps you get a better feel for the movements and gives you more of a chance to develop timing and sensitivity. Mike Murphy and Simon Martin cover volleys much more thoroughly on their videos and Maybe Simon, Chris Camp or Adam Winrich can add in at some point with some more volley tips to help you out if your still having trouble with them.
Dan
Since your working with the Indy style bullwhips mostly, I think Whip Cracking made easy 1 and 2 would help you out, Mark Allen and Alex Green do a very nice job taking you through each crack, target work and into some basic multiple cracking routines in those tapes. I know you’ve been cracking whips for a while, but I would recommend getting both in the set, Not only will it help strengthen your foundation knowledge, but also it can help work out any bad habits that are easily develop while teaching yourself.
Anthony’s Mastering the Bullwhip DVDs are very good too, he is very straightforward about taking you through everything you need to know. His techniques are different, but the principles of whip handling are basically the same. He focusus on using less energy to get better results and teaches a more fluid like flow, utilizing the rolling motion of the whip and body. Depending on whom you talk to, some people like that style, some don’t. I’m one of the ones that do so I think that they very much worth getting, especially now as we are probably going to see some of that come in to play in Indy 4.
If Paul Stenhouse ever gets around to making more copies of his video, I’d also recommended that too. His DVD was a great bridge between the American styles of whip cracking and the Australian styles. If you want to see some really fancy whip cracking, check out Mike Murphy’s and Simon Martins DVDs. Most of what they are doing works is better done with stock whips, but you’ll still get a lot out of them and be able to apply what you’ve leaned with bullwhips. Adam Winrich also has one floating around too, I haven’t seen it yet, but I hear he has some amazing stuff on it, I’ am not sure if its currently available though.
Volleys can be a tough crack to get the hang of, they are also more challenging to do with short handled bullwhips so don’t get discouraged. When doing them your wrist should act like a pivot point that moves the handle of the whip back and forth. The first crack of the volley is done turning your wrist and forarm down and the second crack of the volley is done by turning your wrist and forarm back up flicking the whip behind you then following through again by turning your wrist and forarm down again and so forth in a motion kinda like windshield wiper. It also helps to have your whip slightly angled out and away from you as your cracking and keep that angle consistent while doing the set. As you start to get the back and forth motion going, a good exercises is to start slow, then speed up, then slow down again, etc. It helps you get a better feel for the movements and gives you more of a chance to develop timing and sensitivity. Mike Murphy and Simon Martin cover volleys much more thoroughly on their videos and Maybe Simon, Chris Camp or Adam Winrich can add in at some point with some more volley tips to help you out if your still having trouble with them.
Dan
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Jaredraptor
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Canyon
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With all due respect, Harrison was cast as Indy three weeks before Raiders started shooting.
Now, imagine wearing cavlary wool pants, shirt, Aldens, fedora (which yes, keeps the sun off, but makes you even hotter) plus carrying around a gunbelt, gun, markseven, whip AND having to act AND learning to crack a whip as well AND do it so that it looks realistic.
Give credit where credit is due, gentlemen.
Now, imagine wearing cavlary wool pants, shirt, Aldens, fedora (which yes, keeps the sun off, but makes you even hotter) plus carrying around a gunbelt, gun, markseven, whip AND having to act AND learning to crack a whip as well AND do it so that it looks realistic.
Give credit where credit is due, gentlemen.
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BendingOak
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I don't think anyone here is taking any respect from him. If they did, they wouldn't be going out and buying whips like his. I think from a people want to use his tectnique as a lerning point. Kinda as a starting piont.Canyon wrote:With all due respect, Harrison was cast as Indy three weeks before Raiders started shooting.
Now, imagine wearing cavlary wool pants, shirt, Aldens, fedora (which yes, keeps the sun off, but makes you even hotter) plus carrying around a gunbelt, gun, markseven, whip AND having to act AND learning to crack a whip as well AND do it so that it looks realistic.
Give credit where credit is due, gentlemen.
....and yes I would expect him do have very good technique no matter what he had to wear and do. It' his job.
Man i would honestly love to be able to tell if Harrison did a good job or not. I will say when i first saw the movie as a little kid i believed every second of it. In fact after seeing the movie many many many many times i still dont look at the Cairo scene and think "man...that harrison ford makes a great indy but he sure could use some work on his whip wielding abilities". I would say that good or bad technique he still plays the part well enough for me to believe that he is kickin some major bad guy tail. Now, double that with the fact that my own whip crackin abilities really do stink i am somewhat in awe of what he does pull off. However, after watchin ole bullwhips video up there my jaw dropped. I really didnt know that things like that could be done. Mr. Borton...you really impressed me sir. So...to sum this up...Fords techniqe kicks my techniques tail but Bullwhip vs. Ford...ummmmm...no contest.
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BullWhipBorton
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Thanks for the kind words, I apprecate it.
To give credit where credit is due, Harrison Ford did put in the effort to really learn how to use the bullwhip for Raiders of the Lost Ark. I don’t think the films themselves ever did a good job of showcasing his skill and the bullwhip chorography though, as it was just ment to be one part of the over all story. You can see in some of the behind the scene footage and deleted scenes that he knew how to do a lot more then was ever shown on film back in the 80s. As any one who has ever picked up a whip can tell you, you don’t usually get those combinations of cracks right off the bat no matter who is teaching you. It takes some time and practice to really get that down and while A lot can be done with the cameras to make it look believable, he pulled it off on film and made it look easy.
Dan
To give credit where credit is due, Harrison Ford did put in the effort to really learn how to use the bullwhip for Raiders of the Lost Ark. I don’t think the films themselves ever did a good job of showcasing his skill and the bullwhip chorography though, as it was just ment to be one part of the over all story. You can see in some of the behind the scene footage and deleted scenes that he knew how to do a lot more then was ever shown on film back in the 80s. As any one who has ever picked up a whip can tell you, you don’t usually get those combinations of cracks right off the bat no matter who is teaching you. It takes some time and practice to really get that down and while A lot can be done with the cameras to make it look believable, he pulled it off on film and made it look easy.
Dan
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BullWhipBorton
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Canada Jones
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Shane:IndyMcFly wrote:You do an underhand, then a forward (circus) crack, then a forward throw. I do it all the time. Here's a video I made of me cracking my 8' Stenhouse about 1 year ago. I kind of muscled the whip in this video, but my form is much better now (at least I like to think so
For now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdIDMTbyl6Q
EDIT: Erin - if you can get the original trailer from Raiders, you'll see the same Cairo scene, and with real (or at least not so exaggerated sounding) whip cracks. I think the cracks in the final movie are timed correctly, just made to sound a little more menacing.
In Christ,
Shane
This is a great video and the other ones you posted as well. who makes the whip and how long is it?
best
Canada