Brim Width?

[Dr.Seuss]

Perhaps this is directly under my nose, what are the approximate brim widths for the TOD and LC Fedoras?

Sincerely,

[Dr.Seuss]

Is this too elemental, or is there no definitive/speculative information on those brims?

Sincerely,

[fatwoul]

I suppose if someone had decent-sized screenshots of Mr. Ford in all three hats, from the side and the front, we could work it out.

But I'm sure this has been discussed before.

[Kentucky Blues]

http://www.indygear.com/gear/fedora.shtml

How's that?

-Daryl

[Dr.Seuss]

http://www.indygear.com/gear/fedora.shtml

Kentucky:

Appreciate the link, I was familiar with those comments. The write-up simply references "wider" (TOD), and "narrower" (LC). I was looking for something with a bit more "meat." Apparently, there is not.

Sincerely,

[eazybox]

Dr. Suess,

I have a Herbert Johnson Poet that was made at the time of Last Crusade. The brim dimensions are 2 5/8 inches in the front and back, and about 2 1/4 to 2 1/2 inches on the sides. The dimensional cut occurs closer to the back than the front, and the back of the brim may actaually be very slightly narrower than the front. Whether these odd measurements were deliberate or a mistake by Mr. Swales I can't be sure, but the hat looks good and is exactly like the one in the LC advance poster (The Man With The Hat Is Back, and This Time He's Bringing His Dad."

I hope this helps.

Jack

[Dr.Seuss]

I have a Herbert Johnson Poet that was made at the time of Last Crusade. The brim dimensions are 2 5/8 inches in the front and back, and about 2 1/4 to 2 1/2 inches on the sides. * * * I hope this helps.

Jack:

Precisely what I am seeking! Cut by Swales, eh? Appreciate the information!

Sincerely,

[fatwoul]

LOL Exactly the dimensions of my Fed Dlx brim now I've cut it. Interesting...

[Dr.Seuss]

* * * Cutting the brim is one of those tortuous things that always leaves me thinking "should I have done that?" because its one of the only things you can do that you can never undo.

You see, worried for naught.

My PB has 2 1/4 sides. Always wondered who thought up that dimension.

Sincerely,

[fatwoul]

You see, worried for naught...

Yes, I relaxed considerably when I read easy's reply.

Thanks eb!

...My PB has 2 1/4 sides...

2 1/4 eh? There was me making a fuss about 2 1/2. So...

Thanks Doc!

...Always wondered who thought up that dimension...

Well, I have a hunch about that. Maybe the brim dimension was carefully decided upon by extensive research of mens' heads, to see what proportions tended to look right the most often...

...or maybe the designer of a given hat just used sizes he/she was familiar with, when fashioning a rough model of the hat. For example, 2 1/4 inches is roughly the same length of my thumb from the tip down to the join. In other words, if I was to grasp the hat by the brim, with my thumb fully extended across it, the end of my thumb would meet the side of the crown.

I suspect that sort of rudimentary measuring happens quite often - I know it does in some circles of both the fashion and tailoring industries.

[Dr.Seuss]

Maybe the brim dimension was carefully decided upon by extensive research of mens' heads, to see what proportions tended to look right the most often...

...or maybe the designer of a given hat just used sizes he/she was familiar with, when fashioning a rough model of the hat. For example, 2 1/4 inches is roughly the same length of my thumb from the tip down to the join. In other words, if I was to grasp the hat by the brim, with my thumb fully extended across it, the end of my thumb would meet the side of the crown.
I suspect that sort of rudimentary measuring happens quite often - I know it does in some circles of both the fashion and tailoring industries.

I suspect the beginning of another "debate." Perhaps there was no "haphazard" cutting of the first brim. Perhaps, anecdotal "blind alleys" abound in this hobby.

BTW: I find the 2 and "something" inch brim width to work just fine.

Sincerely,

[Fedora]

Perhaps this is directly under my nose, what are the approximate brim widths for the TOD and LC Fedoras?

Sincerely,

Which fedora? Stetson placed a hat in at least one of the films, perhaps two. TOD and TLC. The brim widths on those Stetsons were 2 5/8 by 2 3/8. I owned several of them about 10 years ago.

On the HJs that had the handcut brims instead of the Stetson factory dimensional brims, I doubt that was as consistent. So, you may have seen some inconsistent brims coming from Swales since from what I have seen of his cuts over the years, he just eyeballed it and cut it by hand. He could have been over or under the Stetson hats.

I think for some of the TOD hats and some of TLC hats, the 2 5/8 by 2 3/8 works well if your face is like Fords in shape. But some of those TLC hats were 2 3/4 by 2 1/2. For the record, Swales never said he cut any brims 2 5/8 by 2 3/8. He mentioned a 2 7/8 by 2 5/8 (Raiders I assume) and 2 3/4 by 2 1/2(the other two films I assume) So, you basically have to choose who to believe I guess. Fedora

[Johnny Fedora]

So, you may have seen some inconsistent brims coming from Swales since from what I have seen of his cuts over the years, he just eyeballed it and cut it by hand.

How many Swales' cut HJ fedoras have you seen? Having never seen one myself I was curious. Is it distinctive enough to look at it and say "oh yeah, that's Swales' all right " . I get that way with other types of art that I know and was just wondering if it holds true for hatmaking also.

Johnny

[Tennessee Smith]

LOL Exactly the dimensions of my Fed Dlx brim now I've cut it. Interesting...

What did you use to cut your brim with?

Do you mind posting a before and after pic with it on your noggin, so we can see the difference?

[Dr.Seuss]

* * * Stetson placed a hat in at least one of the films, perhaps two. TOD and TLC. The brim widths on those Stetsons were 2 5/8 by 2 3/8. * * * On the HJs that had the handcut brims instead of the Stetson factory dimensional brims, I doubt that was as consistent. * * * But some of those TLC hats were 2 3/4 by 2 1/2. For the record, Swales never said he cut any brims 2 5/8 by 2 3/8. He mentioned a 2 7/8 by 2 5/8 (Raiders I assume) and 2 3/4 by 2 1/2(the other two films I assume).

.
Fedora:

A wealth of information, as usual. Thank you. Given those dimensions, do you know why the TOD is considered to have a "wider" brim than the Raiders fedora?

Perhaps my post/thread search should have included, "Swales."

Sincerely,

[fatwoul]

What did you use to cut your brim with?

Just a sharp pair of scissors, with the 3/16th mark drawn on first with a tailors chalk. I find scissors much easier to control than a craft knife or razor blade, when cutting in a curve, at least.

Do you mind posting a before and after pic with it on your noggin, so we can see the difference?

I'm not sure how clear the difference will be - I'd have to use the same focal length etc to make it as clear as possible.

[eazybox]

I'm no expert, but I've had a lot of experience with HJ's, and I think perhaps the consistency of their brim dimensions improved as more and more people started to rorder the Indy hat. Some of the hats were also made by a Mr. Guittard (not sure of the spelling).

Jack

[Fedora]

How many Swales' cut HJ fedoras have you seen? Having never seen one myself I was curious. Is it distinctive enough to look at it and say "oh yeah, that's Swales' all right " . I get that way with other types of art that I know and was just wondering if it holds true for hatmaking also.

I would have to guess as I never kept track, but a good guess would be 25 to 30 over the years. I have seen one side wider than the other side by an eighth of an inch. I have seen many that he left the bumps on the brim where he ended the dimensional cuts. In fact, this has been the rule rather than the exception, the bumps that he never bothered to smooth out. So yes, his cuts are his signature and pretty noticable if you have seen enough of them.

One of the cleaner cuts done by Mr. Swales was on our our Adminstrators HJ he bought from Lee, back when Lee was importing and selling the HJs, long before COW existed. I have had the pleasure to see that hat of Mike's and I used this hat to create my template for my own line of hats.( I later got an HJ in for a reblock that was made by Swales, and it was practically identical in transition points and widths. You can start and end the cut in various places, and I copied Mike's as it was a decent clean cut. Plus it looked dead on to the film.I still have it, on my hatshop wall. This is when I discovered exactly how he did the cuts, as there are many ways to do a dimensional cut, but only one way to do a Swales dimensional cut. A factory dimension cut that is say 2 1/2 on the sides is only that width for about an inch or less, as it then starts to grow. Swales cuts were not this way. His cuts exhibited the side dimensions that were more or less consistent for a much farther distance along the sides of the hat. To me the TOD fedora used in the Bridge PR photo looks to be a factory cut, but I can't swear to it. Just the impression I get.

I'm no expert, but I've had a lot of experience with HJ's, and I think perhaps the consistency of their brim dimensions improved as more and more people started to rorder the Indy hat. Some of the hats were also made by a Mr. Guittard (not sure of the spelling).

Yeah, I have seen cleaner cuts earlier, but before Swales retired, I saw some horrendous ones, with the brims not being equal at all on the sides and with the ugly bumps at the 4 corners. I think he was better early on and got worse. Like he could have cared less how the cuts looked. But that is only my experience. Not many here may know it, but he wasn't the friendliest guy if you tried to order an Indy fedora by phone years ago. He had the atttitude of, " oh no, another Indy nutcase" This was well documented at various times on Indy fan. At other times he was a charmer, or so I have been told. Probably just depended upon how he felt on any given day. But these are just my opinons, and nothing else.

Fedora:

A wealth of information, as usual. Thank you. Given those dimensions, do you know why the TOD is considered to have a "wider" brim than the Raiders fedora?

I never heard that before, that the TOD had a wider brim. The widest brim was the Raiders fedora and I know for a fact it was 2 7/8 by 2 5/8. If you ask how I know, I will have to put you off for now, but trust me on this one. Now, what confuses the matter is the placement of some odd, non HJs in the last two films. So, when you look, you have to ask, is that an HJ, or a Stetson? Part of it may be perception too. A tapered hat with the same size brim as a straight hat, will appear to be larger on the tapered hat. That is just how this sort of thing works. So tapered hats generally look better with less brim as opposed to a more straight sided hat. Since Stetson originally had the "rights" to make the post film hats, what they sold us had another name at that time. 2 5/8 by 2 3/8 brim widths, factory cut. When they let DP(I think they were the one who got it next) Stetson still sold their official Indy hat that was placed in the film(s) but changed the name to Temple, which still pointed toward it being an Indy fedora. They just could not advertise that Indy was wearing a Stetson anymore. I am not sure, but I think the DP comes with a 2 3/4 by 2 1/2 which probably copied the film specs of the Hj, but this is only conjecture on my part because I honestly do not know for sure.


My last word on Swales brim cuts for the film hats is he was not perfectly consistent in the side widths. So, I think if they changed one hat for another during filming, you might perceive different brims. I know the scene where Indy is sitting in the SOC before he is invited into the bar, that front brim looks to be a full 3 inches to me. Which is very possible as the Poet originally came with a 3 inch brim all the way around. But, some could have come in a 2 7/8 as well. That is the way things happen in hat factories. They would not sweat 1/8 of an inch when doing the original brim cuts with the automated brim cutter. An employee could have reset the brim cutter from a 4 inch brim to a 3 and set it just a tad short. $#&# happens. Fedora

[Dr.Seuss]

* * * I never heard that before, that the TOD had a wider brim. The widest brim was the Raiders fedora and I know for a fact it was 2 7/8 by 2 5/8. * * *

Being a neophyte, and curious as to the specs of the "other hats," I was musing over this comment in the Fedora Gear Section:

"Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom

As a result of the wide variety of hats used in the movie, one has a fairly broad range of different looks to choose from. One of the more popular seems to be the "Suspension Bridge" hat, which appears to have been lightened during the editing process, having what appears to be a wider brim - though I believe this may just be because the brim is snapped down all the way around the hat. Given the variety of hats seen throughout the movie, specific measurements really have little meaning."

So, TOD and LC are "narrow" when compared to Raiders.

Sincerely,

[eazybox]

So, TOD and LC are "narrow" when compared to Raiders

That is my understanding, yes, but as Fedora said, the Raiders hat is the only one that we have an exact standard to go by, and even the film-used hats had some inconsistencies in their dimensions.

Jack

[fatwoul]

...I have seen cleaner cuts earlier, but before Swales retired, I saw some horrendous ones, with the brims not being equal at all on the sides and with the ugly bumps at the 4 corners. I think he was better early on and got worse. Like he could have cared less how the cuts looked. But that is only my experience. Not many here may know it, but he wasn't the friendliest guy if you tried to order an Indy fedora by phone years ago...

Maybe he had arthritis? Someone I know is starting to get that. She's a seamstress, and she says there aren't many things as frustrating as knowing what it is she wants to do, but not being able to get her hands to co-operate. It's making what was once her hobby into a chore.