How accurate is authentic brown

[Han Jones]

How acurate is authentic brown lambskin. I am thinking about getting another jacket and I have the authentic brown lambskin but I also have the dark brown goat. I think the authentic brown looks a bit greyish and the darker brown more accurate. Maybe dark brown lambskin is the way to go.

[ob1al]

The authentic brown is the same colour used on the screen jackets. Thus the 'authentic' part.

But it's a matter of personal preference - some people prefer a darker colour jacket to match what we see on screen (not the actual colour that was used, but how it looked under studio lighting etc.)

[Han Jones]

I quess my question is that how after making the last film jacket in 1989 can they say this is the same color and leather we are using today. I hope it is but i still wonder.

[agent5]

The authentic is the same color as those used in the films but you need to take some time and distress it properly for it to look the part. Brand new gear is just NOT very Indy-ish.

[Castor Dioscuri]

I quess my question is that how after making the last film jacket in 1989 can they say this is the same color and leather we are using today. I hope it is but i still wonder.

You know, I wonder the same thing...

According to Peter, authentic leather was color matched to some leftover Raiders' jackets that was discovered relatively recently... Which does beg the question of how accurate the color on a jacket which was presumably badly stored for over two decades would be...

If anything, I'd bet that the authentic leather color is authentic not to what color the jackets were when the film was made, but what color an undistressed, unmaintained Raiders' jacket would look like today.

[Rundquist]

I quess my question is that how after making the last film jacket in 1989 can they say this is the same color and leather we are using today. I hope it is but i still wonder.

You know, I wonder the same thing...

According to Peter, authentic leather was color matched to some leftover Raiders' jackets that was discovered relatively recently... Which does beg the question of how accurate the color on a jacket which was presumably badly stored for over two decades would be...

If anything, I'd bet that the authentic leather color is authentic not to what color the jackets were when the film was made, but what color an undistressed, unmaintained Raiders' jacket would look like today.

This is how misinformation spreads. Tiny but important details get changed in the telling of information. Peter never said that he found some “left over” Raiders jackets. What he found (when he was moving his factory) was an original piece of hide, the same hide that was used originally for the Raiders jackets. “Authentic brown” is a very accurate color. Aesthetically, I don’t like it. It’s milk chocolate colored and it does seem to have gray overtones to it. But it is correct. What you actually see on screen is open to interpretation, depending on the print of the movie you’re watching and/or the color settings on your monitor. Cheers

[Michaelson]

Interesting how stories change in the telling.

When he originally contacted me regarding the original sourcing of the Italian hides, he told ME he found ONE unfinished Raiders jacket under a pile of hides in the move, and that's what he used to source the color.

So, take the story you like and run with it.

Regard! Michaelson

[Rundquist]

Interesting how stories change in the telling.

When he originally contacted me regarding the original sourcing of the Italian hides, he told ME he found ONE unfinished Raiders jacket under a pile of hides in the move, and that's what he used to source the color.

So, take the story you like and run with it.

Regard! Michaelson

I stand corrected. Forgive me. Turns out I’m the one screwing up the details. Cheers

[Michaelson]

Nothing to forgive, old friend.

You nailed it squarely on the head in terms of how stories get screwed up as time goes along...maybe not in this case, but that's just the nature of the beast. You are absolutely correct in your observation.

Regards! Michaelson

[Kt Templar]

If anything, I'd bet that the authentic leather color is authentic not to what color the jackets were when the film was made, but what color an undistressed, unmaintained Raiders' jacket would look like today.

We have had members here see the Smithsonian jacket with their Authentic brown jackets and confirming the colour.

[Michaelson]

The one in the Smithsonian is from LC, so a comparison of the 'authentic Raiders brown' isn't a very good comparison. Two different jackets and two completely different hide sources, as that tannery had been out of business LONG before LC was producted.

JMO, though.

Regards! Michaelson

[Kt Templar]

The one in the Smithsonian is from LC, so a comparison of the 'authentic Raiders brown' isn't a very good comparison. Two different jackets and two completely different hide sources, as that tannery had been out of business LONG before LC was producted.

JMO, though.

Regards! Michaelson

Quite true.

It is possible and maybe quite likely that the "left over leather" was LC rather than Raiders too.

[Michaelson]

Problem with THAT is, the authentic brown left over Raiders jacket was discovered LONG after LC. I'm talking well over a decade, and Peter had absolutely nothing on hand from that tannery by the time LC rolled around, or at least that what he told me in other conversations during the time.

The tannery went out of business right after Raiders, so we're also talking about yet another decade separation between the Raiders jacket and the LC jacket.

Also keep in mind that the Smithsonian jacket had been subjected to extreme distressing. The 'Raiders discovered jacket' was NOS. The Smith jacket could have easily matched the true Raiders color from the reduction of hide and dye during that process.

So, though it's possible, we're definitely entering the realm of conjecture now.

(I got to use a lot of big words in this post! Not bad considering time of day! )

Regards! Michaelson

[Swindiana]

VERY good job. I got about 1/3 of it.
(I got the smileys though...)

Regards,
Swindiana

[Michaelson]

Yeah. In re-reading it, that's about all the good I got out of it myself.

Regards! Michaelson

[Swindiana]

If it's another 1/3 at least we got 2/3 together... I think that'll get us far enough when we've forgotten this info in the future.

Regards,
Swindiana

[Michaelson]

Forgotten what info?

Regard! Michaelson

[Swindiana]

I forgot... Let's forget it.

Regards,
Swindiana

[mark seven]

Can I throw a question into the mix?, something I've been wondering about..the jacket that Flight suits make is dark brown(VERY dark brown)and this jacket was based on Terry Leonard's actual Raiders jacket that was studied and copied exactly,why then are the GB jackets not authentic brown colour instead of dark brown?,if authentic brown was the real colour of the Raiders jacket?

[PLATON]

Can I throw a question into the mix?, something I've been wondering about..the jacket that Flight suits make is dark brown(VERY dark brown)and this jacket was based on Terry Leonard's actual Raiders jacket that was studied and copied exactly,why then are the GB jackets not authentic brown colour instead of dark brown?,if authentic brown was the real colour of the Raiders jacket?

OK, since _ is away in Hawaii on holidays I think I can asnwer that.

Do you think that the current owner of Terry Leonard's actual Raiders jacket lend the jacket those cow members to take to Flightsuits to see the color and copy the color as well? The guy didn't even let them take photos.

Thus, the color of Flightsuits jackets cannot be correct. What they did? Memorized the color? Let's not kid ourselves.

Also, the jacket of Terry was so much distressed that nobody can ever tell what its original color looked like.

The Authentic brown is the right color because the only authority (Peter) says so and there is no evidence to the contrary.

[Michaelson]

The FS was developed and produced in 2001. The 'authentic' brown Wested did not surface until 2004 or so.

The FS was developed from a production used, production distressed stunt jacket in a private collection. The 'authentic' brown was a discovered, unfinished, non-distressed jacket found at Wested.

So, FS never had access to a non-distressed Raiders jacket, and the FS predates the discovered authentic brown jacket from Wested by 3 years.

Some more info to mull over.

Regards! Michaelson

[Cowboy]

Can I throw a question into the mix?, something I've been wondering about..the jacket that Flight suits make is dark brown(VERY dark brown)and this jacket was based on Terry Leonard's actual Raiders jacket that was studied and copied exactly,why then are the GB jackets not authentic brown colour instead of dark brown?,if authentic brown was the real colour of the Raiders jacket?

OK, since _ is away in Hawaii on holidays I think I can asnwer that.

Do you think that the current owner of Terry Leonard's actual Raiders jacket lend the jacket those cow members to take to Flightsuits to see the color and copy the color as well? The guy didn't even let them take photos.

Thus, the color of Flightsuits jackets cannot be correct. What they did? Memorized the color? Let's not kid ourselves.

Also, the jacket of Terry was so much distressed that nobody can ever tell what its original color looked like.

The Authentic brown is the right color because the only authority (Peter) says so and there is no evidence to the contrary.

You seem to think you are my proxy?

The jacket was seal brown and the veg goatskin FS offered at the time was a ######-good match... Nothing wrong with my memory... Only fools speak about that which they do not know... Carry on - you continue to prove my point...

[FLATHEAD]

The FS was developed and produced in 2001. The 'authentic' brown Wested did not surface until 2004 or so.

Actually, Wested put out their Authentic Brown Lambskin in
December of 2002.

Here is the post Michealson himself posted about it:

Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 12:45 pm Post subject: WESTED ANNOUNCES NEW LAMBSKIN TODAY

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Peter Botwright emailed me today, and announced that he FINALLY has found a tannery that is able to supply him with an exact duplicate of the original lambskin as used for the Raiders movie jackets. He has not been able to spec the leather until his recent move from the old Wested site to his home, and in their move, lo and behold, an old partically finished Raiders jacket in the original lambskin was found in the overstock room, complete with supporting paperwork. He sent this to an Italian tannery to be duplicated in English lambskin, and has been waiting for several months to get the results. Today, he announced success, and now has in hand hides that are exact duplicates of the original. The skins are standard dark brown, semi aniline and the exact color as the original sample. They are heavier than the current stock skins, and all in all, he's tickled to death to FINALLY have a new source of the original skins. So there you go folks...if you're wanting a jacket made to spec....Wested now has the hide to do the job. I also have a jpeg to supply, and will send it to Sergei and ask if he would be so kind to post it in this string so you can see the material. High regards. Michaelson

Hope that clears up the fact of when it was introduce to the world so
we could buy them.

This is how misinformation spreads. Tiny but important details get changed in the telling of information. Peter never said that he found some “left over” Raiders jackets. What he found (when he was moving his factory) was an original piece of hide, the same hide that was used originally for the Raiders jackets. “Authentic brown” is a very accurate color.

According to the post Michealson posted back in 2002, it was INDEED
an old leftover JACKET, and not a piece of hide or leather that was
just sitting around.

If Michealsons post back then was currect, then the original post about
finding a jacket is correct, not finding just a piece of hide like you are
stating.

Like you stated, tiny mis-information of important details gets the stories
wrong.

Flathead

[Michaelson]

Yep, that's correct. Years get away from one after time.

The point was, there were several years separating the introduction of the FS and the discovery of the Wested jacket,.

I could look up the FS development date in the Indyfan vaults, but quite frankly, it really doesn't make that much difference. The point remains the same.

As you can also read in my announcement back in 2002 (MAN it doesnt' seem that long ago! ), the source of the information was Peter himself, and that post made the very day I received the email.

Regards! Michaelson

[FLATHEAD]

The point was, there were several years separating the introduction of the FS and the discovery of the Wested jacket,.

I could look up the FS development date in the Indyfan vaults, but quite frankly, it really doesn't make that much difference. The point remains the same.

I know. I just put it up there so that anyone who might want
to dispute it, and we know there are people who will/do just that, can not
twist the info and try to make their point as the truth, when we now
know its not.

Like _ said

Only fools speak about that which they do not know... Carry on - you continue to prove my point...

Flathead

[Michaelson]

Regards! Michaelson

[PLATON]

The jacket was seal brown and the veg goatskin FS offered at the time was a ######-good match... Nothing wrong with my memory... Only fools speak about that which they do not know... Carry on - you continue to prove my point...

I am glad you posted the below because the above doesn't stand alone.

When I went to examine the TL jacket, I knew the conditions set by the owners. As such, I went with a bundle of leather samples from Flight Suits, Wested, and US Wings. I also wore my Wested RotLA lambskin for comparison. I brought calipers, several rulers and tape measurers of varying sizes, and a colortone comparison chart binder (about 2 inches thick) used in the mixing of custom paints. When I matched the color, I first used the charts. Then I selected the leathers that best matched that color and finally selected the best texture from that subset...

Only fools speak about that which they do not know...

It happens that I know exactly what I am talking about due a fact that is at this time strictly private and confidential.

I have seen hundreds of leather samples during the past month, and I know it's impossible to remember each color, weight etc. It's impossible to memorize a leather color by heart. So, all I meant is that without having been prepared as you described, you couldn't have done it.

And by the way, another thing you guys should know is that no tannery can be consistent with one color. Only hides from the same lot have the same color. I don't want no doubts on that cause this info comes from Italy's No1 tannery and supplier with whom am recently talking and in case you are not aware Italy is world's no 1 country in processing leather and over 85% of world's leather ends up in Italy.

So, whatever Peter describes as Authentic Brown is close but not 100% the same everytime, meaning that if you buy a jacket from him now and another one after a year (provided that he got supplied with new leathers), the color will NOT be the same.

[PLATON]

Let's not forget also that you tried to match a heavily distressed (draged behind a truck) leather jacket with swatches of new hide.

[ANZAC_1915]

I just received my "authentic seal brown" Wested jacket (with silver zipper and rectangular strap rings) and I think it looks great.

[Indiana G]

;0

[indy89]

;0

I agree!!

[PLATON]

Let's not forget you are being fed information by only one source.

Well, in case you didn't understand my source is not Peter. In case you also didn't understand what I am saying that authentic brown cannot be the same all the time happens to be against Peter. So I wouldn't think Peter feeds me with information against him.

The fact that authentic brown cannot be the same all the time, is an inescapable fact. It may be against Peter, but nobody can blame him because it's the tanneries who can't make the leather to be the same color everytime. This is something that all vendors suffer from. Not only Peter.

I'm so please you approve of my methods. BTW - I am going to propose a new class of membership in your honor - "Self-Appointed Experts". We could add the description "believe at your own risk" so I would not have to deflate you every time you puff yourself up...

Thanks.
My expertise is in a different area. Here I just relay what I hear from various sources. I share the information. I don't produce the information. People here can judge what sounds right or wrong.

For the record, can you remind me who appointed you expert?

"believe at your own risk"

I always give some supporting evidence when I say something. In this case, I can give you the name of the tannery if you ask me privately.

Despite the fact that many people have different opinions, not necessarily agreeing with yours, you seem to come only after me whenever I say something. I guess it's got to be a hobby of yours.

[FLATHEAD]

it's the tanneries who can't make the leather to be the same color everytime. This is something that all vendors suffer from.

Very true. And it was even worse years ago.

Just look at the A-2 jacket back in WWII.

The original spec was for Seal Brown. If you visit Eastman Leathers
website, they have a copy of the original spec sheet for the making of
the jacket, and the specs on the color it should be.

The government gave all the different tanneries the specs on the the
color they required, but no two places produced the exact same color.
A-2's range from Russet to almost black, but they were all supposed to
be Seal Brown.

With todays technology, its much better, but there will always be slight
differences in color. Also, the color of the leather, even if its all from
the same animal can have variations in it because of the location of the
cut of the hide, the grain of the hide, and the thickness will also affect the
color as well.

I have a Russet Buffalo Aero Californian jacket I purchased about 3
years ago.

The first one I got had a slight problem with it, so I had to order a
replacement. I waited to send the first one back until I had the second
one in my hands just incase the second one had the same fault. (It did
NOT).

Anyway, the two jackets had very slight color differences. One was
absolutely darker than the other one. You could see it more in the
daylight, but it was indeed darker. And this was leather that came from
the SAME tannery. Also, both jackets color varied slightly from panel to
panel because of the grain and thickness of the hide during the tanning
process.

So, even today, it does happen. You are 100 percent correct on that
one.

Flathead

[Cassidy]

For the record, can you remind me who appointed you expert?

John Bickel - Back in 2000 when the site was launched. He and Abner asked me to join as a moderator and subject matter expert. I was nominated without my knowledge by several existing staffers, based on my contributions to the hobby and the work I had done in several areas.

All of this is in the record. But I guess if there are no pictures, you don't bother?

And BTW - I "come after you" because you have the audacity to asume to answer a question for me. To add to that, you make assumptions about my work about which you nothing and state those assumptions as fact or direct knowledge. You seem to be the only one who has this problem. How in the #### could you make an assumption about the ability to match the color of the leather on a jacket that you did not see? If you cannot support it, don't say it. I do not take issue with your other statements about tanneries - never said anything that would make a reasonable person think that.

I've said it before - as have many others; don't speak with authority about that which you cannot. If you have a question about my work, ask the question and do not suppose. Ask how I matched the color, do not just suppose I am an idiot and could not have done so. Asking questions will never get anyone in trouble with me. Putting words into my mouth or telling my story for me without knowledge will get you in trouble. So far whenever you have supposed, you have been wrong - and it got very old a long time ago.

I was around back when _ first ruffled a few feathers by daring to ask questions and challenge the reliability and credibility of folks who were making a lot of money off of us.

While I don't know _ personally, my impression is that he would be the first person to admit that his is not infallible. Having said that, no one should be questioning his credibility or calling him out, but thanking him for being one of the founding fathers of this hobby who has stopped at nothing short of demanding vendors provide us with the best quality product and backing up their claims.

Expert? You bet your ### he is.

[PLATON]

And BTW - I "come after you" because you have the audacity to asume to answer a question for me.

Hi _,

What I meant by saying that I can answer that while you were away, was simply joking implying that since you are away you can't come after me! (it was joking also because I was saying that you were away without knowing if you were or not)

Never meant that I can answer questions on your behalf. Who would think that?

[PLATON]

I've said it before - as have many others; don't speak with authority about that which you cannot. If you have a question about my work, ask the question and do not suppose. Ask how I matched the color, do not just suppose I am an idiot and could not have done so. Asking questions will never get anyone in trouble with me. Putting words into my mouth or telling my story for me without knowledge will get you in trouble. So far whenever you have supposed, you have been wrong - and it got very old a long time ago.

You are right about that and I am sorry. One way or another though, today's G&B color isn't the same with what you matched years back, so the whole thing about color accuracy is pointless.

[coronado3]

PLATON wrote:

One way or another though, today's G&B color isn't the same with what you matched years back, so the whole thing about color accuracy is pointless.

Yeah the color match is somewhat pointless since so many fans beat the heck out of their jackets anyway!

Are there any comparison photos of older GBs vs. the new GB? Just curious...

C3

[PLATON]

I'd much rather share a pint or two...

I must say I enjoy conversating with you everytime. I find it very challenging.

[coronado3]

I would have loved to see it in person!

C3

[Indiana G]

Lighting was museum grade halogen quartz - as the owner was a collector of other very cool items and he clearly had very deep pockets...

_...perhaps the next time you venture off into something like this you will take me along with you.......me and my empty mkvii bag

[coronado3]

Oh man! Robert Michum! He was super creepy in the original Cape Fear!

Where are all of these items now?

C3

[Satipo]

Very interesting thread. With all the tension and evidence flying back and forth, it started to feel a bit like A Few Good Men or something ...

You want answers?

I want the truth.

You can't handle the truth! :evil:

One 2,000 sq ft room was nothing but saddles, all of which I was told had John Wayne's production company's labels/tags on them...

A 2,000 sq ft room? That's twice the size of my London flat! Was there a crate numbered 9906753 in there too?

Adios,
Satipo