Herbert Johnson Toughness...

Louisiana Jones · Post by **Louisiana Jones** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:53 pm

I tried searching for an answer but couldn't find what I was looking for. I'm wondering how "tough" an HJ is. I have one on order, but the more I read about them the more they seem too dressy and not able to withstand some adventure (I'm mostly afraid of what the rain will do to it).

If I treat it with some Scout Rain & Stain Protector, will it be okay to wear out in the rain? I spend a good part of every summer in the Adirondack Mountains and the hat will definitely see more than a few days of rain.

Just curious.. I feel like I would have been better off with an Adventurebilt.

LJ

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:01 pm

Let me answer this one for you. No. No way, no how. I wouldn't put a glass of water next to a HJ ( not of fear of it tappering) it will tapper ( no doupt about it). That one you can take to the bank. it's just not worth the money at all. I wish I had not gooten mine. I would recomend getting a AB. They are around the same money but the AB is more screen acurate, tougher, and just plain better all around.
I wish that someone did what I'm doing for you. I would own anothr AB and not this hat (HJ).

Do you get the idea that I really don't like them.

Louisiana Jones · Post by **Louisiana Jones** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:50 pm

Thanks for the info. I was afraid of that. Lemme see what I can do about cancelling the order. I ordered it from Todd's... but my size was out of stock. Hopefully it didn't come in yet and hopefully Todd hasn't started shaping it.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:04 am

LJ, what shot is that in your avatar?

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:10 am

hj's and the word tough shouldn't be used in the same sentence sorry to say.

they are dress hats....in the same sense that you wouldn't take a zegna suit to go hiking in or prada shoes to play soccer in

if you're planning to use it to fend off the elements throughout the adventures you plan on being on....i don't really recommend it (though indy magnoli may beg to differ with the stock hj......and perhaps his improved magnoli hj is up for the challenge).

but if you plan to use it cuz you wanna look like indy when he steps off the venice pier, there's no other hat i'd recommend

Louisiana Jones · Post by **Louisiana Jones** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:27 am

I emailed Todd to see if he could cancel my order.. we'll see what happens.

My avatar is a fire burn I did for a show called Forensic Files.

ydam · Post by **ydam** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:35 am

i am gunna step out and take up for the HJ. I am by no means a hat expert, but as far as comfort and quality i think it is great. I have had my HJ stand up to the rain, gettin kicked around in the dirt, sat on, hikes in the snow, and even drug behind a car (not me...just the hat). If anything i have had a very hard time getting it to look worn out. As far as tappering maybe i just havnt had the hat long enough...but it has been well over a year and i havnt noticed much, if any of a taper to it. I dont have any of the other hats but I will say I do like my HJ.

<----------there is a pic of it in the avatar

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:58 am

I've had an HJ from Todd for nearly a year now, and I am very happy with it. No complaints.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:14 am

I would like to se pics of that hat.

michaelb · Post by **michaelb** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:04 am

I've had my HJ from Todd for over TWO years and I still like it better than my Fed. And no taper! I wish my FED would taper just a little! Although I do love the Fed as well. (Sorry, don't have access to a digital camera and am not going to bother people at work about finding one, placing pics on their server and trying to post here, etc, etc, etc).

Also, (sorry, I can't take it anymore...), but when I saw your post, I said, I'll bet BendingOak is on his way, and lo and behold...

YES, I have heard a HUNDRED times that you wish you had never gotten the HJ and how EVERYONE HAS TO HAVE AN AB, EVEN IF YOU DON"T LIKE HATS AND NEVER INTEND TO OWN ONE, GET ONE NOW BECAUSE THEY ARE THE BEST! REMEMBER I TOLD YOU SO! And on and on...

Yes, you are all doing us a great service, and YES I got the idea that you don't like the HJ a LONG time ago.

I have my AB on order, and I am sure it's gonna be amazing, but could ya...

I'm going to calm down now.

Sincerely,

MichaelB

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:09 am

Here MichaelB, have a cup of coffee and sit by me. You need to take a few deep breaths before you go back outside.........

HIGH regards! Michaelson

michaelb · Post by **michaelb** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:17 am

Thanks Michaelson...

I was thinking about going out to look and see if anyone in town has a Plymouth with some space underneath...

Maybe it's the heat.

M

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:23 am

Always space under the Plymouth....and we have a fan under there today.

Come on in!

HIGH regards! Michaelson

ydam · Post by **ydam** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:31 am

I have to say i dont have an AB to compare to my HJ. Just out of curiousity where you happy with your HJ before you got your AB BendingOak? Did the AB change your view of how you looked at your HJ or did you despise the HJ as soon as you got it? I know for myself i did not do much research on the hat before i bought one. I read that HJ was the hat Indy wore in the movies...searched for the company that made them and it was a done deal...it didnt take more then a couple of days of research before i had my mind made up that the HJ was the one i was going to get. I dont know....maybe i should pick up an AB so i can give an opinion that isnt one sided, but I just didnt want LA Jones to think HJ's were a complete waste of money and that no one liked them because it is quite the opposite for me.

Oh...and other then the avatar i dont have any pics of the hat atm but will take a few and post them when i get to the house late tonight or tomorrow.

Captain Ron Solo · Post by **Captain Ron Solo** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:38 am

In my opinion, taper is not the worst thing in the world. It is the natural course that a hat takes with age. Sure, Indy's had straight sides for the most part, but despite being beat to ####, it was a new hat. I think that the pursuit of the stovepipe look has driven more than a few of us to make irrational choices. I spent more than I should have to buy a new hat, because the Federation that I had been wearing for over three years had a bit of taper. Now I have a new hat, without taper, and I think I look funny in it.

The point is, if you get an HJ, you have THE Indy hat. If after it tapers (if it tapers), someone points out that your hat doesn't have perfectly straight sides like Indy's (who's going to know that anyway?), then you can tell them that Indy's hat was not as old as yours.

Embrace the taper :!:

Ron

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:46 am

I've had my HJ from Todd for over TWO years and I still like it better than my Fed. And no taper! I

It is possible you got an HJ that does not taper rather fast. But, after seeing so many of these hats, I have have yet to see one myself.

When I get the HJs for Indy Magnoli from HJ(I have a dozen still in the shipping box) I have to use a size 7 3/8 to make a size 7 1/4. If you just take one of these bodies and steam it to pull it over the block, it will immediately, right before your very eyes, shrink up from the stock 5 3/4 crown height to 5 inches!!! And you can watch it happen, as the felt is shocked and shrinks. Being a hatter, I can tell you this is not normal. Because of this tendency to shrink very fast from steam, I ruined the first HJ I tried to remake for Indy Mag. I had to come up with an alternitive technique for reblocking these new HJs. And I did.

So, in order to get a decent, less taper prone HJ for Indy Mag, I have to use the next larger size.

The trouble with the current felt on the HJs is I think they are taking a "too small" body, and then mechanically stretching it out to the right size. Of course, when you over stretch any felt, that stretch is only temporary. As soon as something happens to relax the felt, like water, heat, or steam, the over stretched felt quickly reverts to what it is comfortable at being. And on the HJs, the 5 3/4 crown is comfortable at being 5 inches. This tells me, that the body started out at 5 inches and was stretched to accomodate the 5 3/4 block height. And therein lies the problem.

So to get an HJ that is not prone to shrinkage, you need to go up in size. Heck, I had one order from Indy Mag for a size 7 18 once. But, I only had a size 7 5/8 body left. I had no problem shrinking that 7 5/8 down to a 7 1/8. In fact. I just placed it on the steamer for 30 seconds and I had a 7 1/8 in no time. This does not happen to good quality felt. There is no way I could take one of my 7 5/8 hats and shrink it down that much.

The HJs I make for Indy Mag are the best HJs available today, from the current felt stock. And, I am not trying to sell his hats, I am just stating a fact. And the reason is only because I use a larger hat to make a given size. And, also, I do somthing to the hat that the factory does not do. And something they SHOULD be doing. These differences will give you an HJ that is not as shrink and taper prone as the factory hats. They will still shrink and taper, but they will last you longer before the shrinkage occurs. But, even the HJs I make are fair weather hats. And if you are after felt that is very similiar in looks and characteristics of the original raiders fedora, the current HJ felt is the best I have seen to pull off that floppy look. IMHO. Fedora

Johnny Fedora · Post by **Johnny Fedora** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:41 pm

That's interesting. I wonder why HJ would use a body that is too small? Would that be just lack of experance, a cost cutting mesure, or planned shortened lifespan to increase hat sales?

John

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:06 pm

I don't know for a fact, but the 'cost cutting' angle seems to hold water for me. Let's face it, it sure would cut down on inventory if all you had to do was keep a particular size on the shelf, then if something bigger is needed, just stretch the tar out of it until it meets spec, rather than keeping all sizes in stock.

Regards! Michaelson

ydam · Post by **ydam** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:58 pm

Pics....

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:08 pm

no taper there ydam. very nice hj for sure. it has the distinctive block shape of the current offering that you see from todd's shop.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:17 pm

[quote="Michaelson"]I don't know for a fact, but the 'cost cutting' angle seems to hold water for me. Let's face it, it sure would cut down on inventory if all you had to do was keep a particular size on the shelf, then if something bigger is needed, just stretch the tar out of it until it meets spec, rather than keeping all sizes in stock.

Regards! Michaelson

yeah thats the hat I want?????? yikes.

michealb,

(quote)YES, I have heard a HUNDRED times that you wish you had never gotten the HJ and how EVERYONE HAS TO HAVE AN AB, EVEN IF YOU DON"T LIKE HATS AND NEVER INTEND TO OWN ONE, GET ONE NOW BECAUSE THEY ARE THE BEST! REMEMBER I TOLD YOU SO! And on and on... (quote)

I never said that, get it straight.

michealb,

LJ asked for opinions and I gave him one. Don't get bent because I don't agree with you.

ydam,

I had my HJ beforre my first AB and it tappered in a few day's. I just hated it.

Thanks for posting your pics but for me. What you pay for a current HJ in my opinion is not worth it. ( from your pics) It's tappered, the ribbon I don't like and I don't know what going on with the brim but over all I don't like it. Don't get mad , it's just my opinion. thats all.

Yes , I know that tapper is part of life when talking about fedora's. I've owned them for 20 years. The thing about the HJ is that it tappers fast ( way to fast) and you can't reblock them often because of the machine stitching.

On the other hand. I had my AB in rain ( I don't go out and stand in it) but if it rains I don't go running like a mad man either. The AB can be reblocked for a life time.

One hat you can have reblocked over and over to last you a life time . the other is a throw away hat. I know where I would spend my money.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:30 pm

oak,

ydam's hj isn't tapered at all. i've had 3 of todd's hj's and 2 were open crowned. the shape of the block is the same as what ydam has. i do not see any tapering happening with what you would get originally. 1 of my hats have tapered where you can notice it and i sure wish it still has the shape that ydam's has.

compared to fedora's raiders hat block, yes it will look tapered

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:43 pm

Every hat will look tappered to the AB line. It's in the block. I understand that. My HJ from the front (after a short time) looked like ydam's hat ( side shot) .

michaelb · Post by **michaelb** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:45 pm

BendingOak wrote:
michealb,

(quote)YES, I have heard a HUNDRED times that you wish you had never gotten the HJ and how EVERYONE HAS TO HAVE AN AB, EVEN IF YOU DON"T LIKE HATS AND NEVER INTEND TO OWN ONE, GET ONE NOW BECAUSE THEY ARE THE BEST! REMEMBER I TOLD YOU SO! And on and on... (quote)

I never said that, get it straight.

michealb,

LJ asked for opinions and I gave him one. Don't get bent because I don't agree with you.

Hello BendingOak,

I apologize if I was being crass... But as far as my first quote, you have said basically that MANY times. No those aren't your EXACT words, but every time an HJ subject pops up, so do you, and always negative... It just gets tiresome. I know, you are trying to help out the uninformed...

As for your last statement, I have no problem with you not agreeing with me, we should all share our opinions.

Again, sorry for the harsh sarcasm earlier, but I believe you can "inform" people of your hat preferences without being so negative and sounding
high-on-your-horse about it as well.

Talk about "bashing" a hat!

MB

Captain Ron Solo · Post by **Captain Ron Solo** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:51 pm

Ydam,
I think that's a fine looking hat. I'd be proud to own that.

Ron

ydam · Post by **ydam** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:57 pm

BendingOak wrote: ydam,
Thanks for posting your pics but for me. What you pay for a current HJ in my opinion is not worth it. ( from your pics) It's tappered, the ribbon I don't like and I don't know what going on with the brim but over all I don't like it. Don't get mad , it's just my opinion. thats all.

You ain't hurtin my feelins at all...you are entitled to your opinion. I will say that if it looks tapered then they sent it to me tapered because it looks the same as it does the day i got it (except maybe a bit more "used"). Second, i agree with you on the ribbon....that is the one thing that has always bothered me regaurding the hat. It just doesnt seem as dark as the hats on screen. Last, when i first got the hat the brim did bother me as well....it has a certain funky lopsidedness to it. However, this has become one of my personal favorite aspects about this hat since. I think it gives character and not perfectly cemetric (spelling??). If you are lookin for a nice hat then cemetric might be a requirement, but if you are goin for an Indy adventure hat IMO nice and neet should not be on the top of the priority.

Also...for all the complements posted...Thank You...I appreciate all feedback on my lid (espeacialy the good ones) $\:D/$

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:59 pm

Any reason you're using my name in your 'quote'? I didn't say that.

BendingOak forgot to add his quote to the end of HIS statement. How about quoting HIM in your rebuttal.

Regards! Michaelson

ydam · Post by **ydam** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:01 pm

hmmm...sorry bout that...lol. No, was my bad...will fix it.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:02 pm

Thank you.

Regards! Michaelson

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:13 pm

micheason, I don't know how your name got in there. I have to say away from quote buttons.

High Horse, well. thats harsh. I don't ever remeber jumping on any opinions of yours. In any thread? I would say something positive if there was something to say about the HJ.

Hi, Bendingoak here long time member, going back to being a lurker.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:14 pm

That's interesting. I wonder why HJ would use a body that is too small?

Please don't take my statement as fact. It is not. It is just my opinion, of what MIGHT be going on. It would logically explain why these hats shrink suddenly from a good shot of steam, but I am still just guessing. So..... take what I say with a grain of salt. I have no proof. Fedora

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:23 pm

Nah, we're going to give you the blame, Steve.

Bending Oak, stick around! No reason to go 'a lurking' over something like this.

Keep in mind, a 'high horse' has longer legs,better lungs, runs faster, and stays ahead of the pack.

HIGH regards! Michaelson

michaelb · Post by **michaelb** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:25 pm

Nope, ya never jumped on any of my opinions. And High-Horse is a bit harsh as well.

Don't take any of this as an attack, just wanted to vent and it got out of hand. I guess it's one of those days. I think I get overly sensitive when it comes to the HJ.

Get back on the thread!

I'll shut up now.

M

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:27 pm

I TOLD you to sit by me, but NOOooooo.....

Regards! Michaelson

michaelb · Post by **michaelb** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:35 pm

I know, I know...

Yes, I'm a moron.

M

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:37 pm

ydam,

where'd you get the HJ....from todd's or from SAB?

ydam · Post by **ydam** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:38 pm

SAB...from here...

http://www.herbert-johnson.co.uk/

Captain Ron Solo · Post by **Captain Ron Solo** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:36 pm

Not a very informative site.

Ron

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:48 pm

that explains it. the sab hj has more stiffener in the felt than todd's offering which helps to combat the taper monster. also, the ribbon is a lighter brown than todd's (ie - not as screen accurate).

i too have the sab HJ version. though i could never make it look as sa as an ab, i liked the hat alot.....i just wished they did a better job in the dimensionally cut brim. very, very pricey for what you get though. but its all on what your taste is

Ripper · Post by **Ripper** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:21 pm

as sa as an ab

.....Huh ? Im dizzy now........just say what you mean, dont studder.....

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:24 pm

Quote:
as sa as an ab

.....Huh ? Im dizzy now........just say what you mean, dont studder.....

ha ha! i didn't even realize how wierd that looks....so let me reiterate:

"as screen accurate (sa) as an adventurebilt (ab)".

thanks ripper!

Post by **Indy Magnoli** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:07 pm

and... no sab is as sa as an ab!

Kind regards,
Indy

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:10 pm

and... no sab is as sa as an ab!

afaik.......imho........

ydam · Post by **ydam** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:53 pm

Captain Ron Solo wrote:Not a very informative site.

Ron

no it is not unfortunatly...i never found much information from either of the web sites i have for them. The prior site is where i actually ordered from. This is better the other one...still not much info but at least it has pictures...

http://www.swaineadeney.co.uk/catalogue ... uctsPage=1

so...even though the sab isnt as sa as an ab the sab, imo, is an aok sob 8-[ ...got that???

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:28 pm

CarolinaQuirk · Post by **CarolinaQuirk** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:17 pm

Aeris, thanks so much for your post - it gives hope to us HJ owners!

I feel that having an HJ is like having a early British sports car - sure there’s a lot a maintenance involved, and yes, there are a lot of modern alternatives that you could say are "better", but at the end of the day, there’s just something about it...that makes it worthwhile.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:49 pm

ac...why you got to torture me like that.....you know i'm on the fence already with pull'n the trigger on a magnoli hj.........can't....hold out....much longer...........

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:46 pm

i keep mulling it over........i need some more details of this creature before i make my decision

in the meantime, this is as sa as my todd's hj is gonna get

...NO ONE SNEEZE OR OPEN THE DOOR.....THE BREEZE WILL COLAPSE THE BASH!!!!!

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:49 pm

But to date, the most accurate Raiders hat I've seen has been an HJ. Indiana G, you hit on something that maybe the vendors will pay attention to, or at least try on a few to see the difference. More stiffener is needed for the initial bash. The Raiders hat was floppy but it's very difficult to get things right when it starts out too soft. Nothing holds. This one's back from a reblock - and hearing all the "won't do it" tales I'd have never bought one myself. I can credit a very generous gearhead for sending one my way, not only as a generous act and belief that I could make one into a decent "Raiders", but for the fact that they have plenty of higher end fedoras and can honestly say the felt quality of the HJ really is on the lesser side for what's available to us today. Felt quality aside, when the HJ is on it is ON in terms of Raiders accurate (including the "crappy" quality of the felt that actually helps to make that happen).
So, if you ask me which hat has made the best Raiders "looking" hat so far, I have to say it's been an HJ.

I totally agree with you on this one. But only if the HJ has been reblocked with a better blockshape. I have yet to see a new one that could pull off the look out of the box. I also think the stiffer hats from SAB do indeed take longer to taper, because stiffener does in fact slow down this process, when compared to a hat with little or no stiffener.

If you have seen alot of the older HJs from the 1990's, you would have seen at least 2 different kinds of rabbit felt in those hats that came from Mr. Swales. Both were much stiffer than the Raiders fedora appears to be, and it was this way until SAB started using the current felt, and offering the hats with minimal stiffener in order to capture the Raiders characteristics. But as noted, they also offer the same felt with more stiffener. The drooping and bulging you see in the SOC hat can be mimicked the best by the current HJ soft felt, and that makes the hat look more screen accurate to me personally. But as I said, I have yet to see a new HJ that came close to the Raiders look, in blockshape. I have 12 here now, unassembled, freshly blocked. If I put the film dimensions on these hats, they taper. They are already tapered, out of the box, at least these are, and I can get a killer LC look, but even as hard as I try, I can't pull off the Raiders look. Not 360 degrees of veiw. I love the way the front and back look, from the side view, very accurate, so I know the radius on top of the block is dead on. But, the view from the front is not even in the ballpark. The radius on the top as viewed from the front is dead on too. The weakness lies in the sides of the hat. And, it may be that the body shrinks once it comes off the block, and what started out as straight sides don't stay that way. Working with this felt, I can certainly see how this is very possible. I would like to see a decent felt come off of the block that they use. We might be surprised to see a very straight sided hat! Fedora

Captain Ron Solo · Post by **Captain Ron Solo** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:39 am

Indiana G,

Looks good. Might be turned just a quarter-inch too far, but I imagine that will work itself out on its own. Great job.

I can't advise on which hat to get. I own neither. Since you already have an HJ, I would think that an AB would be the natural choice. On the other hand (no offense intended, Steve

), I don't know what the wait time for ABs is running these days. If it looks like it might be 2008 before your AB showed up at your door, I might be tempted to stick with the IMHJ. Just my thoughts.

Ron