Indiana Jones IV Bullwhip

[Curator Rick]

Gotta through my two cents in here. When I was a cast member in Gettysburg two identical conf. officers coats were made for my character. Both at a glance looked the same but on closer scrutiny, there were major differences, collar size, button placement, etc. Reason?- two different seamstresses.

My point is there are never two completely identical items in the film industry. We all should know this by now given all the discussion on idols, jackets, etc from the previous movies.

[DJN]

Gotta through my two cents in here. When I was a cast member in Gettysburg two identical conf. officers coats were made for my character. Both at a glance looked the same but on closer scrutiny, there were major differences, collar size, button placement, etc. Reason?- two different seamstresses.

My point is there are never two completely identical items in the film industry. We all should know this by now given all the discussion on idols, jackets, etc from the previous movies.

Well I don't know about that - or how big and featured your role was in the film - but if you were featured in anyway (and not background) in the film that sounds like a problem in the wardrobe dept.

My two cents - as a feature film driector/ writer/ producer - the costumes and props better pretty much match dead on (unless there is a specific reason for the change - stunt work special shot, etc.) or that person(s) would be gone big time.

There are all kinds of identical items on the sets of most films. That's these people's jobs - to have multiples that match. Continutity is enough of a pain without having to worry about wardrobe and props not matching. There are always going to be errors but you try to be prepared and having exact matching costumes & props is one way of helping to make life easier.

I'll tell you this - if the problem you encountered with your costume happened on a Ridley Scott film and he noticed it - the costume person would be killed - not just fired.

[binkmeisterRick]

DJN, Curator Rick was also a key historical advisor for the film (in fact, he's credited in the movie more times than Tom Beringer, who starred in it) and CR has also worked on a number of other films, so he knows what he's talking about.

I'd venture to guess that not every film is run identically behind the scenes. Keep in mind that there were differences in the Raiders jacket we saw on screen. Some had gussets, while others did not. You can see both of these jackets on screen if you look out for them. It's also been stated by some that no two jackets were 100% identical. I don't know of anyone who got fired over that. In ToD, it's been said that some of the fedoras were swapped out practically for product placement, hence the hat looking considerably different throughot the film, too. I don't know if anyone lost their jobs over that, too.

I'm not saying things will be different or the same for IndyIV, because frankly, I don't know. But I think it's safe to say that 99% of the people wouldn't notice if the stunt whips did look different than the hero whips. It's the nitpicky fans like us that fuss over it all.

[Gater]

A perfect example of Hero vs. Stunt props would be when they use cars for films. There were HUNDREDS of General Lee's used in the show, but only 3 were 'Hero' cars, or 'Close-up' cars. The majority of them had their interiors spray painted to colour match, had quickie orange paint jobs, PVC pipe rollcages, small block engines, etc..but the Hero cars were resto-moded properly with vinyl-colour matched interior, proper Hemi engines for close ups, steel cages, etc...

[agent5]

I think what DJN means is that if CR's role in the film was not as prominent (and I have no idea if it was or not) then things like he spoke of may get by, but for THE principal actor in a major film they would be sure to get it right. I worked on a couple of films and spoke to the script supervisor about this at length. They carry around shots of all the actors/costumes for each scene so that can reference it to be sure they won't get it wrong. Continuity is VERY important in a film as DJN has pointed out, but especially more so for the main cast of actors.

The stuntman would have the exact same costume as Ford, which would include the whip.

Ford's jacket in Raiders was changed from scene to scene, most likley because the gussets were needed in certain scenes (stunts/alot of movement) and not in others.

[IndyFan89]

Sometime's there can be a diffrent costume for each diffrent shot.

[Bufflehead Jones]

I think what DJN means is that if CR's role in the film was not as prominent (and I have no idea if it was or not) then things like he spoke of may get by, but for THE principal actor in a major film they would be sure to get it right.

.....Ummmm......You mean THE principle actor like Harrison Ford, whose Indy jacket appears different in various scenes?

[agent5]

Ummmmm...yeah. As I said:

Ford's jacket in Raiders was changed from scene to scene, most likley because the gussets were needed in certain scenes (stunts/alot of movement) and not in others.

There is a BIG difference in replacing the same jacket with gussets and replacing the jacket with an entirely different manufacturer. I think this is the basis of the conversation about the whip in this thread.

[Captain Ron Solo]

I've got no problem with the filmmakers having a number of any piece of gear on hand for utility's sake. Obviously, it makes sense to have one hat that's going to get wet, one that's particularly dusty, or to have a longer or shorter whip for certain scenes. That's not what I'm talking about. Like Steve said, there was at least one Stetson used in Temple. I'm not sure which one is which, but it is painfully obvious that the hat in the plane is not the hat Indy is wearing on the bridge. Whatever the arrangement, it appears to be solely so that Stetson can say that they were the authentic Indy hat.

Ron

[Jaredraptor]

BACK TO THE WHIP: Can anyone tell what length the particular whip in the photos at the begining in the thread is?

[jabahutt70]

I don’t think it’s a blown strand you’re seeing Steve. I’ve actually seen small gaps in the plaiting just like that in several other bullwhips made by this particular whip maker, a few of those whips are sitting to the left of me right now. It’s usually where the strand is dropped in to the whip, it opens up a small gap but it really doesn’t effect the performance or the durability of the whip, these are very good whips. Dan

Thanks, Dan, I didn't realize that was a prevalent characteristic of the particular whipmaker. Never having handled one of his whips, or even inspected one up close, I wouldn't have thought there would be such a large gap. I realize it is cosmetic, and in no way affects the performance of the whip itself, but am still a bit surprised to see that. In fact, I don't remember ever reading anywhere where someone mentioned gaps like that in his plaiting. I've made and sold scores of whips, leather & nylon, and in some of the very early ones I made, which I still have, there are gaps in various places that still make me wince. They don't deter from the whip's handling and performance, but are just cosmetic. Like I said, I'm just a bit surprised that after so many years there are small blemishes as that on his whips. And please, believe me, I'm NOT criticizing or bashing, as I don't feel I even have that right, but still have much respect for the individual.

Now back to the regularly scheduled program already in progress.......

Steve.

[BullWhipBorton]

Thanks Jaredraptor it’s 10 ft.

Steve, as you know Just about every whip maker out there has some sort of noticeable indicator when they drop a strand; it’s a nature of the craft.
Its not really a gap in the plaiting, per say, you can’t see the bolster beneath it. Its where that one strand is angled a bit more sharply as its turned up into the belly, it exposes a bit of the plaiting underneath it. That opening in the picture is particularly noticeable.

I actually agree with you though, its not my favorite way to see a strand dropped. It does make a pretty smooth transition though, where as some whip makers whips have a slight kink or lump at that point. I’m guessing he must have a reason he does it that way.

Dan

[thefish]

Dan's right, and that "Gapping Effect" is a rather common trait of that particular whip maker. My whip by this maker has a couple places where you can see where they dropped strands. And it doesn't effect how the whip throws at all. Straight, fast, and pretty!

And it's not unusual. If you spend time actually examining any of your whips, you'll find them. I can see a couple dropped strand spots on my 8' Nolan, and on my old 8' Strain I could see them too, and on the couple of Morgans and Jackas and Winrichs and Frasers and Murphys I've played with as well.

They're there. They're just easy to miss unless you're really looking closely. On my whip by the same maker as is pictured above, I found them during a cleaning, (saddle soap and a soft toothbrush to get the grit from a riding ring out of it,) It's just the picture Lucasfilm provided happens to show it very prevalently, (and that their stunt guys are rougher on their falls than I am, and that's really quite an insult! )

I'm really not so much bothered by the new whip as I am the Whip Coach. His inverse-bias cracking technique would KILL the transition on a Morgan in a heartbeat!

Mind you, I would never fault DeLongis's sword work, (and I think his theatrical sword combat technique is the most safe and effective training method out there,) but his whip work leaves a considerable amount to be desired to my eyes.

But, he's pleasantly surprised me before. And perhaps with him in as whip coach, we'll see some actual whip CONTACT, (All the Indy movies, the whip action is expressed with a film cut, DeLongis's work in Batman Returns and the Rundown had actual physical wraps, strikes, etc. in continuous long shots!) We'll see...

-The Other Dan

[BullWhipBorton]

I'm really not so much bothered by the new whip as I am the Whip Coach. His inverse-bias cracking technique would KILL the transition on a Morgan in a heartbeat!

Mind you, I would never fault DeLongis's sword work, (and I think his theatrical sword combat technique is the most safe and effective training method out there,) but his whip work leaves a considerable amount to be desired to my eyes.

Dan, You know I have a lot of respect for you but I have to strongly disagree with that statement. I have a lot of personal experience that contradicts it even with the David Morgan bullwhips.

Now we have had this discussion before. This is an old argument and there is lot of personal bias and ego that comes with it so I’m not going to even try and change your mind. But honestly I don’t know who has filled your head with that notion that his inverted style will damage a whip, do yourself a favor don’t just take their word for it; find out the real facts. It’s irresponsible to go around making bold statements like that unless you have proof to back it up and so far in the 23 years I’ve been cracking whips I’ve never seen any real proof that does.

I’ve never seen any extra damage or wear on the whips he’s use that a lot of whip cracking won’t produce and I’ve looked because of this very issue. If you can prove me wrong, then by all means, I’ll be the first to admit it but after 10 years of also cracking whips both ways, My own whips are fine.

As long as you’re cracking the whip, with or against the belly you’re not going damage that transition any faster or slower, whichever way you crack a bullwhip. His whips are broke in the way they are because he uses them all the time and his maintenance practices aren’t quite as religious as ours are. I’ve seen it many times on many performer whips that get used a lot. The so-called damage and stress on a bullwhips from using it in this manner is completely over played and has been blown way out of proportion by a fairly small few who feverishly disagree with the way Delong’s is works a whips.

Dan

[thefish]

OK...OK...You're right, Dan.. ;-) The statement about the "upside down" throw was meant more than a little tongue in cheek, (there should have been a smiley after that statement.) I myself occasionally do throw my whips "upside down" when what I'm doing calls for it, (especially my particularly DeLongis-like whip made by you-know-who.) and in all honesty, if you look at the torsion placed on the transition of a whip throwing in Anthony's "Forward Flick," (which is what he most often uses,) there's far less stress on the transition than there is in the loop formed by a whip thrown in a "traditionally" aligned circus crack, (seriously...I have experimented on this, Dan. And I agree with you, and I use both pronated and supinated throwing styles with my cracking.)

Mr. D's floppy whips have more to do with the H-E-Double-Hockey-Stix he puts them through than his unique way of throwing them, (and it's not so much Anthony's maintenance schedule as the mileage. If you have a Porsche that you change the oil and rotate the tires on every 300 miles, but still bury the needle of the tachometer every time you take it out, the car's not going to have a long life!)

Still, I still think Anthony's whip work isn't as clean or impressive as many make it out to be. This is really surprising, as I find his very good sword techniques to be DIRECTLY applicable to whip, (especially the Spanish Duello stuff he does. The linear/circular aspects of that apply DIRECTLY to the whip.)

And as I said, I'll be interested to actually SEE some real whip contact in this film, which you just aren't likely to get with anyone else working in Hollywood today.

So, as always, all the best, happy cracking, and

[Mountaineer Lasher]

So, as always, all the best, happy cracking, and

and... And... AND?! Comeoffit man, don't leave us hanging!

[thefish]

...and always leave them on a cliffhanger! ;-)

-The Other Dan

[Jaredraptor]

Thanks Jaredraptor it’s 10 ft.

Dan

Thanks Dan.

[genexs]

Hiya:

Well, all this could mean is that not even Spielberg & Co can afford a Morgan whip!

But seriously, the pic brings back fond memories. My first bullwhip was by that maker. What I like about it is it feels a little bit 'Merican, and a lot Aussie. By that I mean it has some heft to it (but not as heavy as a Morgan-at least that's my subjective opinion, I've never actually weighed them.). Yet, it has a fairly long handle and the thong stays stiff for some distance past the front knot.

Echoing what one poster said, I too would like more work from that maker.

best,
Gene

[Canada Jones]

And as for the whip itself and the change...not a big fan. I see it as a bad omen. I hope I'm wrong. To me it says that they are not being truthful to the character - to the history - to what makes Indy, Indy. Let me explain.

The whip being different can't be that big of deal you say? Of course not. But then again - it is. Let's look at a recent example. John McClane of Die Hard fame. In all three previous movies, McClane carried a Beretta 92F. Seemed to work well for him there - saved his and numerous other lives many many times. Makes sense he'd probably stick with it. And whatever you think of the two sequels - the character of McClane was consistant. The wrong guy in the wrong place at the wrong time....

Well in Live Free or Die Hard they decide to give McClane a new gun for no reason...and guess what? McClane's character isn't the same. He is now the active hero chasing down the bad guys - and is no longer the human action hero we fell in love with in the first film (and he's bald). He is now the indesructible superhero. And guess what - the film isn't a Die Hard film. The tiny little thing of changing up his carry of choice was a big indicator of how they were approaching the entire film and the character.

I just hope this isn't the case with Indy 4. No DM whip, no Dougie Slocombe....I'm just saying...

DJN:
I noticed the change in gun for John McLean as well and like you I did not get the same "Die Hard" feeling that was in the first ones. Not sure that really had anything to do with the gun - more about the story I think. Hey the changed Indy's gun for Last Crusade and I thought it still felt very Indy. Perhaps it is the spirit of the change that matters. McLean used an automatic in all movies. Indy used a revolver in the movies. Most people will not notice that the gun is actually different, or cut down, or whatever.

I am trying to remember - Does Mclean looks his shirt in this new movie like he seemed to in so many? Good thing we are not trying to copy that costume or we would all be walking around barefoot and in undershirts (although it would be a cheaper costume than the Indy one...)
Canada

[IndyFan89]

I'm happy with this whip. I'm just debating geting this style or Raiders style. Expect a call soon Adam.

[BullWhipBorton]

Another very cool picture, showing one of the new bullwhips.



Dan

[Dutch_jones]

I COULDnt help but notice that he is not wearing a gunbelt , and that the whip attaches to his webbed belt!

[Canada Jones]

You are right. It does hook on to the belt. Good call.
Is Karen Allen in the new movie? I had heard rumors. Always thought she was a great character.
Canada

[VP]

Is Karen Allen in the new movie?

Yes.

[Canada Jones]

Thanks. I found the video clip on Indianajones.com. This is great news.

[Dutch_jones]

I also noticed that this new whip looks fairly big , in length.
Or is this just the way its coiled?

[Swindiana]

I COULDnt help but notice that he is not wearing a gunbelt , and that the whip attaches to his webbed belt!

Maybe he just threw it on for the shot and the vid?
The whip being such a signature prop and all...

Regards,
Swindiana

[Rabittooth]

Could also be that there will be no gun in this picture. You folks gotta brace yourselves for that very real possibility.

-Rabittooth

[BullWhipBorton]

I would'nt read too much into the lack of a gun belt just yet. The Bullwhip on the other hand, is most likely a 10 ft. It is a bit of a thicker whip though, compared to bullwhips he's had in the past films.

Dan

[Harrison_Davies]

This movie is the most exciting thing that could happen to nerds like us, whether it is terrible or fantastic. I know I'll still keep coming here regardless, even if it's only to say, "Hey guys, remember Indy IV? Man did it s*ck. Raiders forever!!!!"

Couldn't have been put better...A whip is a whip a hat is a hat, a jacket is a jacket, all replaceable, but Indy's character remains forever.

As for boring hat/jacket? Nothing Indy wears is boring. You can walk the streets minus whip and hat and no-one would bat an eyelid. Antique yet modern that's cool not boring.

[Jaredraptor]

This movie is the most exciting thing that could happen to nerds like us, whether it is terrible or fantastic. I know I'll still keep coming here regardless, even if it's only to say, "Hey guys, remember Indy IV? Man did it s*ck. Raiders forever!!!!"

Couldn't have been put better...A whip is a whip a hat is a hat, a jacket is a jacket, all replaceable, but Indy's character remains forever.

As for boring hat/jacket? Nothing Indy wears is boring. You can walk the streets minus whip and hat and no-one would bat an eyelid. Antique yet modern that's cool not boring.

I think that sums up my feelings on the hat and whip too: Indy defines the gear, not the other way around.

[conceited_ape]

Just looking at the whip in the above group photo. The shape of the turk's head and the handle look strikingly similar to that of my Bernie Wojcicki whip! Not insinuating anything about vendors here, I just kinda think it's cool that my whip is now that eensy bit more SA than I thought.
'Cept that my whip is (now a very dark/dirty) Natural Tan.

[Jaredraptor]

Just looking at the whip in the above group photo. The shape of the turk's head and the handle look strikingly similar to that of my Bernie Wojcicki whip! Not insinuating anything about vendors here, I just kinda think it's cool that my whip is now that eensy bit more SA than I thought.
'Cept that my whip is (now a very dark/dirty) Natural Tan.

That's still more SA than my no-brand 38 Euro whip...

[conceited_ape]

Hey, as long as it cracks like lightning, hangs from your belt and it ties you to being an Indy fan, 'anything goes'!

...Oh, who am I kidding? My whip is bada$$!

[Jaredraptor]

Hey, as long as it cracks like lightning, hangs from your belt and it ties you to being an Indy fan, 'anything goes'!

Whoa....what a coincidence: I'm actually listening to "Anything Goes" right now.

[conceited_ape]

Hey, as long as it cracks like lightning, hangs from your belt and it ties you to being an Indy fan, 'anything goes'!

Whoa....what a coincidence: I'm actually listening to "Anything Goes" right now.

I thought music like that was for funny little men searching for their mommies?

[Jaredraptor]

Hey, as long as it cracks like lightning, hangs from your belt and it ties you to being an Indy fan, 'anything goes'!

Whoa....what a coincidence: I'm actually listening to "Anything Goes" right now.

I thought music like that was for funny little men searching for their mommies?

Okay, THAT made me laugh.

Back on topic......Looking at my whip right now, I just noticed something: there are a few spots that have aged just right, making them the same color as the Indy 4 whip. So, color-wise, my whip is kinda sorat accurate.

[Bernardodc]

Here's a close up with a bit of photo enhancing of the whip in the pic above. Although it looks great, it is clearly not a Morgan...

Bernardo