Fed building business; I need a starting block.

Doeindy · Post by **Doeindy** » Mon May 14, 2007 6:30 am

Hi all.

Hope you are all having a swell day. I know this sounds very niave but I have no idea.

It is a dream of mine to start my own business. I would love to have my own business in making felts; mainly Feds and Trilbys. My question is this:

What equipment would I need?
What material would I need?
Would this be the sort of business that would support my family? (I am not interested in the get rich thing; I just want to have my own business doing something that I am interested in).
Has anyone here have any experience in this field?

Any help would be great,

Many thnks in advance,

Paul.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Mon May 14, 2007 9:01 am

This is not a job I'd expect to support our family with right from the starting gate, if even for a while. Just ask Fedora, Marc, Jersey Jones, and Jimmy Pierce. They all may have different things to add, but it's not the kind of business you start off making lots of money.

There are lots of things you'll need to start off a hat shop, including enough space to make the hats. Your biggest cost up front will be hat blocks and flanges, and they ain't cheap. If you plan to stitch everything in by hand (including the sweatband) then you won't need big, costly machines for it. However, this will also increase your wait time in making a hat. 5'm not even sure where you can find hat stitching machinery, or even if they make them anymore.

Have you ever tried making or refurbishibg a hat? I can tell you there's a LOT to learn, and most of it by trial and error. You only get better with time and patience. I'd recommend a book called "Scientific Hat Finishing and Renovating." It's back in print and although it was initially published in 1919, it's an invaluable resource. I'd try making and refurbishing hats for yourself for a while before thinking of undertaking hat making for a living. I've given it plenty of thought in the past, but I just don't think I'm cut out for it on a large scale.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon May 14, 2007 9:49 am

What equipment would I need?
What material would I need?
Would this be the sort of business that would support my family? (I am not interested in the get rich thing; I just want to have my own business doing something that I am interested in).
Has anyone here have any experience in this field?

1) That would depend upon the sort of hat you wanted to make. Handmade, or machine made. The equipment needed to make handmade hats( limited production) would cost ya probably 5 grand. The machine made hats could cost ya 100 grand. Hatmaking equipement is VERY expensive.

2) You need felt bodies, decent ribbon, liners and a good leather.

3) Could you support your family? I dunno. I think if you went the western hat route, and if you did good work, in a few years you could support a family. The money to be made in hats is in the western market. But, in order to make any money in making hats, you need the production equipment in order to pump out loads of hats. You can't make a living from handmade hats. The reason is it takes too long to make them by hand, and you can never have the volume needed. IMHO, the guys that handmake their hats are not in it for the money. They are in it for OTHER reasons. Since you seem to want to have your own business, forget about the handmade market. Go and borrow a few hundred grand and go for volume, and be ready to starve until you develop a good name for yourself. Over time, if you do good work, you will build up a customer base.

My own experience started right here. I learned the art of making hats, by offering free reblocks here on COW. I did this for a couple of years before I was dragged into the hatmaking by Sharpetoyes.

Making and selling hats was never a dream of mine. Hatmaking was just a hobby, and still is. That is the way I have always looked at it. My hobby actually turned into a small business, much to my surprise. I just sorta feel into it. Fedora

Doeindy · Post by **Doeindy** » Tue May 15, 2007 3:55 am

Hi Fedora, Bink.

Thank you for spending the time to both type a detailed answer to my questions; I really appriciate it. Everybody is so good to each other here; I love this place.

Starting up a hatters is my dream and I am still gonna look into it more, but at least thanks to you guys I now have my starting block.

Have a gret day and God bless you both,

Paul.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue May 15, 2007 9:30 am

Good luck! One of these days I'm going to set up a small corner where I can work on hats, but I'd be surprised if I ever make a business out of it!

JPdesign · Post by **JPdesign** » Tue May 15, 2007 5:38 pm

I have been making hats for almost 9 years, I still cant make my own house payment. I have spent somewear between $15,000 and $20,000 on equipment, and that does not include any of the materials. If it were not for the help of my parents I wouldnt be doing this.

Jimmy

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu May 17, 2007 12:15 am

have been making hats for almost 9 years, I still cant make my own house payment. I have spent somewear between $15,000 and $20,000 on equipment, and that does not include any of the materials. If it were not for the help of my parents I wouldnt be doing this.

Jimmy

JP nailed it. It takes years to build up a good hat business, and to build a decent reputation. This would change overnight if hats actually came back into style again among the populace. Right now, the western market is smoking from what I hear. And like it or not, the western market saved hatting-period. In fact, the hats put out by the small custom western hatters is hurting Hatco in a big way. Why? Because the western hatter actually knows how to make superior hats to what Hatco is producing today. Hat factories used to make great hats when staffed by experienced workes, who actually prided themselves in their craft. I think those days are dead and gone, and all that Hatco is interested in is the bottom line. Purely profit driven as so many of our Corporations are these day. I really see Hatco folding, unless they get to place a Stetson in the next Indy film, for a few seconds so they can advertise again post film, that Indy is back and he is wearing a Stetson. They have already approached the powers that be for the next Indy film. DP may drive a hard bargain on this issue though, but I hope I don't see a DP on Ford's head, regardless even if it is a far off shot.

Fedora

Doeindy · Post by **Doeindy** » Thu May 17, 2007 6:02 am

Fedora, JP Design.

What you have typed up as your repies is really interesting. I really do think it is sad JP that the business that you have got has been so hard to get off the ground; I respect the fact that you are still going at it; your parents are great for the support that they have given you; I wish you the best.

Fedora; how do you know so much about selling lids; unbeleivable. I do wonder that after what you said about hats not really being that popular these day, if the Fed will ever come back as a part of a mans suit; I hope so. BTW Fedora, what is a DP? You typed that you did not want to see a DP on Ford's head; why?

Guys if you want to pursue this topic anymore; please go for it; I find what you have written very interesting.

Take care,

Paul.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu May 17, 2007 10:30 am

DP= Dorfman Pacific, the ubiquitous cheap "Indy" fedoras with the Indiana Jones pin on the ribbon that you see everywhere. They are FAR from being top-notch hats.

Fedora knows what he knows by trial and error and figuring things out by waling the walk. Back in the day, hatters were everywhere (as were hats, obviously) so running a hat shop was good business. But unless hats gain the popularity that they once had (it was a social necessity, not just a fashion statement then) well, it'll be more difficult making a living as a hatter.

Doeindy · Post by **Doeindy** » Mon May 21, 2007 3:11 am

Hi Bink,

What do you me when you typed quote:

(it was a social necessity, not just a fashion statement then)

Take care,

Paul.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Mon May 21, 2007 8:42 am

Back then hats were a necessary part of a gentleman's wardrobe, like an extention of the suit and tie. It wasn't just a casual fashion accessory like many think today. You were expected to own a hat. It was even a big deal as a youngster when you were allowed to wear a cap (like a newsboy) and a brimmed hat not only protected you from the elements, it completed the ensemble and helped distinguish you as a gentleman.

Nowadays, people wear hats, but folks don't think anything of it if you don't go around with a hat. Sure, there may be a certain notstalgia with fedoras and the like these days, but hats had a different standing yesteryear than they do today.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon May 21, 2007 11:22 am

Bink nailed it. And he is talking about mostly the fedora, dress, or casual hat market. The western hats are still seeing a lively business as there are many small custom western hatters out there serving this lucrative market. Heck the folks in that market have no qualms about paying close to a grand for a western hat. But, you need to establish a name for yourself to enjoy the business like many of those guys do. But, a new hatter can break into it with good work and luck. John at Montana Hatters started making hats with his dad about 16 years ago and are really successful hatters from what I hear.

For the dress hat market, you have a couple of hatters that most here are familiar with. Optimo and Gary White. But, you don't have that many, and I assume this is because the market is just not there. I don't know about Gary White, but Optimo can pump out hats like a small hat factory becaue he has the mass production equipment in his small shop that one use to only see in huge factories like Stetson. But, unlike the current factory hats, he actually produces hats on par with the pre 1970 Stetsons, as he turns out some really crisp hats.

I sure don't make a living making hats. It provides fun money, and not that much of it. I tend to use my spare change to buy other vintage blocks and old hatting equipment, or rare stuff like vintage ribbon when it comes up. And will probably never use much of the ribbon either. Just part of the hobby and collecting. I think it is impossible to make a living making handmade hats!! You do this for other reasons, just ask anyone who is doing it!!!

Marc who started making the AB Deluxe is still in the hole!! He never had got back his original investment in equipment and blocks.

I don't want to paint a bleak picture, because if you have the capital to invest in production equipment so you can sell in some sort of decent volume, and turn out some good hats, you could very well make a great living doing this. I mean, the guy who owns optimo takes trips to Equador and Europe yearly.

But, volume is the key here. Fedora

Doeindy · Post by **Doeindy** » Wed May 23, 2007 4:16 am

Hi Bink/Fedora.

Thank you so much for your replies; I found what you typed about hats back then being a nessessary part of a mans suit very interesting; I kind of wish that it was like that now to be honest; there is something good to be said about the standard of dress back then.

The encouragement you have given me has been great by the way; I would love to have my own business making hats but at least now I have a better idea of what is involved.

I have noticed that the hat could be comming back. In the last two weeks I have seen Johnny Depp, Britney Spears, Pete Doherty, and some English commedian all wearing either Trilby or Feds; the hat could be the next fashion item!

Thanks again for your replies; I am really enjoying this post.

Are there any books available that cover the 1930's/1940's life style such as the kind of info you guys have explained to me; I would really love to learn more either in this post or by reading a good book.

Take care,

Paul.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed May 23, 2007 9:24 am

Paul, I'd trek on down to your local library and so some research there as to the lifestyle of the '30s and '40s. Heck, even do a general search online and you're bound to come up with something! And as far as hats for everyday wear, I'm almost never ever without a hat, be it to work or about the town. It's anecessary part of my attire and head protection!