Another "claim" to fame

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Tue May 15, 2007 8:06 pm

It's out of respect. I was introduced to people like Rundquist, Lee Keppler, MK through a good, life long friend and fellow gearhead Daniel Riser. _ I have met but not spoken to as much in person as the others a mentioned. I respect the work _ went into, to give fans a more accurate jacket. I stand by what I respect. Not here to throw names around just state my case. I've seen a lot of evidence and argument over the years. When it comes down to it I know what I have been told and I know what I feel is really based in reality. The last thing I know is that..........it's just a leather jacket for crying out loud

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Tue May 15, 2007 9:14 pm

You know, when I first found out about the community of Indygear fans (back when the “Indyfan” board was the board of choice), I used to defend Wested jackets from guys that said it was inaccurate and this was back when Westeds had a 2-inch storm flap and a cloth-lined collar-stand (the Wested has come a long way in terms of accuracy since then). The irony is that the Expedition was the new kid on the block at the time, and was being touted as the ultimate Indy jacket.

My reasoning (even then) for defending the Wested was that the screen used jackets were all different, even in the same movies. I even remember the analogy that I used. I said that trying to copy every excruciating minute detail of that jacket was like trying to copy a jazz solo. You can do it, but what’s the point? I’m actually more in line with this mode of thinking today, than I was a few years ago.

Back to my story. Eventually I was transformed into a “Stitch Nazi” of sorts and was also converted into an Expedition fan (after I actually got one). It was simply much more accurate than the Westeds of the time. It was also a much better made jacket. (On a side note, I also tried US Wings jackets, which I liked, just not as much as Flight Suits jackets). Needles to say, over the years I have changed.

Today I still champion the Expedition because it is the best-made Indy jacket on the market (in my opinion). Because of my steadfast support of the Expedition, some people think I have some sort of hidden agenda. I don’t. My main gripe against the Wested is that for my purposes it is not a well enough made jacket. I also take issue with some of the inaccurate “stories” that Peter has told over the years. Today I’m more interested in the facts about the original jackets than I am about “a zipper that goes all the way to the bottom”. Not everyone is like me.

I will say to all the Stitch Nazis out there that you don’t enjoy the hobby any more than the casual Indygear fan. In fact I would say that you actually “enjoy” the hobby less because you are never satisfied with anything. I also know that some of you, for the most part, look down your nose at casual Indygear fans as second-class citizens (this again is obviously just my opinion). If that is not the case, it comes off that way. Do I care? No. Does it hurt my feelings? No. Cheers

PS- Don’t expect Wings to change their patterns based on what a few “Crazies” (if you’ll excuse the expression) want. They’ve done it before. It cost them a lot of money to do so and all for nothing.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue May 15, 2007 9:18 pm

Bogie1943 wrote:(thank you _, Lee Keppler, and MK).

Well, gee whiz, Josh, thanks for the nod as well!

See, _? See?

Refer to my statement to you this morning. Toothless and old. I'm starting to really understand old Indy now......

Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue May 15, 2007 9:32 pm

Come here, Michaelson, let me me poke out one of your eyes first.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue May 15, 2007 9:44 pm

I wasn't trying to bash anyone Bogie, it's just a noticeably obvious pattern in your posting. If you read almost all the threads like I do it's easy to spot your respect every time they mention their involvement. We should all respect their involvement in the production of the Expedition among other things, even if you don't own one. It contributed to our hobby and as I've always said, the more gear, the better. It's just better for all of us. You cannot deny that they (among others again) are the true veterans of our hobby.

Today I still champion the Expedition because it is the best-made Indy jacket on the market (in my opinion). Because of my steadfast support of the Expedition, some people think I have some sort of hidden agenda.

I don't. I can see you really like the jackets and make it known the same way others champion their likes in Indy jackets. I honestly think you own one of the best Expeditions I've ever seen which you posted in that recent thread. Yours along with a few others peaked my interest in them.

I also know that some of you, for the most part, look down your nose at casual Indygear fans as second-class citizens

I admit I was guilty of this myself but have since grown up. I now realize that some aren't as anal as I am about so many things and that's all good. Everyone has their own expectations and that's what the hobby is all about.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue May 15, 2007 9:46 pm

I'm just offended that you guys don't care about the true color of Indy's socks.

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Tue May 15, 2007 10:00 pm

Agreed Rundquist, darn it I agree, I can't help it. I am personally getting tired of the debating although I would love to know all that I can about the production jackets. I never look down on anyone I just do not want to see people be swooped up by the tall tails that have come from Wested over the years. I don't want to see what happened to me when I was 15 years old happen to other people. I too was jaded by Wested in the early years, they were the grail of jackets at the time. At that time I also went with everything I was being told from Wested. However, in later years I learned very different from people who actually did real research into that matter. At that time I become a very strong supporter for the expedition. I highly doubt there will ever be a jacket that will be deemed "perfect" but we some good ones out there.

Now to Michaelson in all seriousness I want to tell this story because I have though about it for the last hour. In the early days, when I was at Indy Fan, I knew Michaelson some. In those I was younger and said a lot of stupid things....a lot. I will say this and make it short, Michaelson was always there with wisdom to help me out. So you know my respect runs deeply for you sir.

Now that I sound like a total rear end kisser, lol....oh boy and I hope I really don't. Like I said before it's out highly regarded respect that I stand by the people I have mentioned. I have learned a lot over the years and matured in the process thank the lord. I just want to say that they are the ones I have gained a lot of knowledge from and that is what I greatly appreciate. That's not to say that others have not taught me things in this hobby. Just to clear any air since this is the Internet of all things. Know that I am not angry with anyone here and wish to continue to explore the hobby with you all.

Okay getting way to serious...

CHEERS

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Tue May 15, 2007 10:06 pm

agent5 wrote:I wasn't trying to bash anyone Bogie, it's just a noticeably obvious pattern in your posting. If you read almost all the threads like I do it's easy to spot your respect every time they mention their involvement. We should all respect their involvement in the production of the Expedition among other things, even if you don't own one. It contributed to our hobby and as I've always said, the more gear, the better. It's just better for all of us. You cannot deny that they (among others again) are the true veterans of our hobby.

Today I still champion the Expedition because it is the best-made Indy jacket on the market (in my opinion). Because of my steadfast support of the Expedition, some people think I have some sort of hidden agenda.
I don't. I can see you really like the jackets and make it known the same way others champion their likes in Indy jackets. I honestly think you own one of the best Expeditions I've ever seen which you posted in that recent thread. Yours along with a few others peaked my interest in them.

I also know that some of you, for the most part, look down your nose at casual Indygear fans as second-class citizens
I admit I was guilty of this myself but have since grown up. I now realize that some aren't as anal as I am about so many things and that's all good. Everyone has their own expectations and that's what the hobby is all about.

Like I said I'm not heated about this and I don't recall saying that you were trying to bash anyone. Just wanted to clear the air...

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue May 15, 2007 10:15 pm

Like I said I'm not heated about this and I don't recall saying that you were trying to bash anyone. Just wanted to clear the air...

Good. Me too. I've actually had an incredibly pleasant day.

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Tue May 15, 2007 10:27 pm

Okay, one last thing I want to add, is it just me or does COW getting a little too political sometimes. Not saying it's a bad thing, the whole Wested vs. Expedition thing just reminded me of what's going on in government these days. Democracy at work, it's a good thing.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue May 15, 2007 10:28 pm

I knew there was some interesting history regarding the original jackets, but I have to admit that there was much I simply didn't know, and a lot I had forgotten, simply because I usually don't hang out in the jacket section that much. I've probably turned into a more casual fan, though there's still much I enjoy about this hobby. I'm happy with my "authentic" and "close-enough" gear, though there are still things I'd like to upgrade at some point in the future when I can afford to.

When I started this thread, I didn't realize or remember that similar things had been discussed and debated. I was so used to the "usual stories" regarding the jacket that I didn't realize U.S. Wings really did have a hand in the Indiana Jones jacket legacy. A LOT of people have a hand in this legacy. The article surprised the heck out of me, though, especially in how it was worded. Marketing is a wonderful thing, eh?

A lot of the finer details have been mentioned, researched, and recorded here and elsewhere in the past, and it seems so much of it gets forgotten or "rewritten" from time to time. I hold a LOT of respect for the pioneers of this hobby who collected much information the old fashioned way, before there was this "new-fangled" way. It'd be nice to finally see all these finer details remain in the forefront, and for us all to understand, respect, and appreciate this complicated history.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Wed May 16, 2007 2:38 am

Glad the helmet is on, because your comment is like a blind man doing play-by-play at the mime world championships... Sorry, but I call 'em like I see 'em...

My statement was a pun and if we take it for granted that the expo is accurate then we 're not crazy at all.

I will not talk specifics but even the expo is not 100% repro of the jacket you have seen and I don't think you would deny that.

Chewing Wax · Post by **Chewing Wax** » Wed May 16, 2007 9:41 am

They way I’ve tried to look at it, is that the jacket or jackets in Raiders were costumes and weren’t actually the jacket Indiana Jones wore. Just like Harrison Ford wasn’t really Indiana Jones. The movie, the fiction, transforms through suspension of disbelief. What I tried to buy years ago was a reproduction of what would have been the real jacket Indiana Jones wore. Not a reproduction of the costume Harrison Ford wore. That lead me to this forum (or an earlier version of it maybe?) and eventually to the Expedition, which was merely a rumor at the time. I’d already had a G-1 from Flight Suits so I knew their products were excellent. And quite frankly, even five or six years ago, there were steady complaints about Wested. Nothing seems to have changed. Customer service complaints. Quality complaints. Accuracy complaints. And the underlying seeming quasi-fraud (allegedly) of his jackets being created from the original patterns. Whatever. But like _ points out, do you want a cheap zipper? Do you want a costume? I didn’t. I guess this has all been said before.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Wed May 16, 2007 10:05 am

What I tried to buy years ago was a reproduction of what would have been the real jacket Indiana Jones wore. Not a reproduction of the costume Harrison Ford wore. That lead me to this forum (or an earlier version of it maybe?) and eventually to the Expedition, which was merely a rumor at the time.

Perhaps you are forgetting that in the 1930s all those jackets were hand made so when looking for a jacket that the real Indiana Jones would wear you can forget aboout the modern quality that G&B can offer.

Chewing Wax · Post by **Chewing Wax** » Wed May 16, 2007 10:20 am

I disagree. Hand Made doesn't mean poor quality. It can. Depends on the skill. Jones' jacket seems to have been incredibily well made. Look at all the stuff it stood up to. That's a high quality super jacket if you ask me.

Also, from Flight Suits website:

13. Hand matching. You want all the leather in your jacket to have the same look and feel. Since we use up to 6 hides to make a jacket, the cutter lays them side by side to match them. He touches and caresses each hide to be sure they all look and feel the same, a process he has repeated thousands of times. Then he cuts your jacket with a steel blade he hand-sharpens himself. No cookie cutter production here; your jacket has been cut by a true artisan.
14. Patient craftsmanship. When our leather sewers make your jacket, they take their own sweet time. They tug, pull, pound, and stitch until every corner is square and flat, every curve graceful, and every seam straight and true. When they are finished, your jacket is perfect.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Thanks for correcting me and good to know that they are hand-made.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed May 16, 2007 11:54 am

Thanks for your kind remarks, Josh, but my statement was regarding the folks involved in the creations of the Expedition. I was not looking for kudos at all.

If you go to the Expedition ad at Flightsuits, it mentions 3 Indyfans who looked at the jacket and approved the details. Dave Marshall called me and read me the writeup the day it was written and it was being handed to their publisher. The three he was referring to was Lee Keppler, _, and myself. MK came in after the project was well in motion, and did indeed leave an impact, but he was not there at the very start and dozens of phone calls and emails that were going on as the jacket patterns and details were being debated. In fact, _ wasn't even involved at the very beginning....just Lee and myself. It was in a parallel line of conversations that I discovered that _ was also working toward this same goal, and I suggested to him AND Lee that they get together and possibly share notes. The rest, as they say, is history.

So, though I'm pleased you are aware of the 'players', you actually came in on the situation LONG after it had already been placed in development and we had done all the arm wrestling with the owners of FS to create this jacket in the first place and other interested parties became attached to it's creation.

As to my 'creation' of the monster known as _ in this field......well, let's just say I did throw the power switch...yes. (Great photos of the process, by the way, _. Igor kept the camera level those times. I'm proud of him too!

)

Regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed May 16, 2007 11:59 am

Michaelson wrote:As to my 'creation' of the monster known as _ in this field......well, let's just say I did throw the power switch...yes. (Great photos of the process, by the way, _. Igor kept the camera level those times. I'm proud of him too! )

What hump?

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed May 16, 2007 12:02 pm

HOW did I know you'd post that one.....Igor? Is that pronounced 'EYE-gor-?

Regards! Dr. Michaelson-stein

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed May 16, 2007 12:06 pm

I tried to get the brain you requested, but ended up with one from a man named Jerry...

Doug C · Post by **Doug C** » Wed May 16, 2007 12:10 pm

Seems to me _, that you should be pointing out how misleading Hack's claim is regarding "the jacket Harrison Ford wore in Raiders". You certainly point out Wested's misleading statements every chance you get - even though he did actually make screen used jackets. Instead you seem to be making excuses for Hack, IMO. Wings is not Cooper , the statement should be "We own the name and rights to the company that made the jacket that Harrison Ford wore in Temple of Doom." It IS misleading the way it now reads. And I totally agree with you that Wested should definately change their statements too regarding original patterns and such (thanks btw for bringing that to our attention).

This is what I get from reading these posts lately -
1) _ despises Wested
2) Runquist loves the Expedition

Doug C

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Wed May 16, 2007 12:19 pm

This is what I get from reading these posts lately -
1) _ despises Wested
2) Runquist loves the Expedition

3) Flathead loves old Jeep CJ's

You forgot that one...

Flathead

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed May 16, 2007 12:25 pm

In preparation of the firestorm that will probably come your way, Doug, I'll just say that if taken at face value and information skimmed over, your score keeping is correct....but that's the problem. You only skimmed over what has been said by _ and Rundquist over several posted strings in this jacket section.

They never said they loved one, and hated the other. The have problems with them.

Wings WAS Cooper. Cooper is now Wings.....To Wings anything connected to Indiana Jones IS 'Raiders'. Wested IS misleading folks by offering a TofD jacket as they never MADE any for the movie, but really CAN make a claim as some jackets left over from the original Raiders movie WERE used in TofD, and therefore Wested can make the claim.....lots of gray areas, and being used to the hilt by vendors to sell their wares.

Heck, using your line of reasoning, you can also add me to the list as being a huge fan and advocate of Wings! I'm not, but at face value, it sure looks that way.

Anyway, batten down the hatches...there may be a storm heading in your direction.

Regards! Michaelson

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Wed May 16, 2007 12:38 pm

Quote:
This is what I get from reading these posts lately -
1) _ despises Wested
2) Runquist loves the Expedition

3) Flathead loves old Jeep CJ's

You forgot that one...

Flathead

4) indiana g despises holding on to public transit railings but loves lounging around the pool in full indygear and a digital camera.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed May 16, 2007 12:43 pm

You know, folks, I'm sad for Indy IV. I mean, the chances that we'll know every detail first hand about the gear this time around will leave us little to argue about in the future. Heck, who am I kidding?

Bjones · Post by **Bjones** » Wed May 16, 2007 1:15 pm

What gets me, the casual fan, is that all this bickering is for what? If it was ever done and over with, what purpose would it have served? Bragging rights on who knows the "true" story? Stomping out ignorance of those entering the hobby? To promote the "facts"? Just publish the story in narrative form on this site, have all those "in the know" agree on it and refer everyone to it-AND BE DONE WITH IT. Its history. Every thread is peppered with claims and rebuttals, arguments and re-stating who did and didn't do what.

Doug C · Post by **Doug C** » Wed May 16, 2007 1:34 pm

I don't mind the firestorm anyway.

BTW, What "crazys" asked Wings to shorten the width of the back panel by atleast an inch on both sides and to use the wrong zippers. I take it they took it upon themselves to make a back panel made of two seperate pieces of leather 'cause that one's just too crazy. More strange is how could they entertain the idea of changing the original patterns (that they advertise) for the sake of a few crazys.

I do love my Wings Antique Lambskin though, it's my favorite one so far (2 piece back and all).

Doug C

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Wed May 16, 2007 1:58 pm

What gets me, the casual fan, is that all this bickering is for what? If it was ever done and over with, what purpose would it have served? Bragging rights on who knows the "true" story? Stomping out ignorance of those entering the hobby? To promote the "facts"? Just publish the story in narrative form on this site, have all those "in the know" agree on it and refer everyone to it-AND BE DONE WITH IT. Its history. Every thread is peppered with claims and rebuttals, arguments and re-stating who did and didn't do what.

Excellent! I could not agree more.

There is one thing that will stop this from happening though...

And thats the fact that if you do a very simple search of this very
website for the information about all of this, do you know what you
will find?

Even the people "in-the-know" have discrepancies in their stories
throughout the years.

I have been compiling a list of "quotes" from alot of the "in-the-know"
people, and you would not believe the number of spins that have been
put on this very info from the people who we think know the truth.
But even they have changed their "facts" to some degree over the years.

Just do a simple search, and you will find this for yourself.

Flathead

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed May 16, 2007 2:03 pm

Bjones wrote:What gets me, the casual fan, is that all this bickering is for what? If it was ever done and over with, what purpose would it have served? Bragging rights on who knows the "true" story? Stomping out ignorance of those entering the hobby? To promote the "facts"? Just publish the story in narrative form on this site, have all those "in the know" agree on it and refer everyone to it-AND BE DONE WITH IT. Its history. Every thread is peppered with claims and rebuttals, arguments and re-stating who did and didn't do what.

I totally understand what you're saying, and agree in principle. My problem is I have a very strong interest in history, and a VERY strong opinion and aversion to revisionist history, whether it be regarding Egyptian, Greek, or local history.

The 'truth' HAS been posted, in detail, and many times. It gets changed with every re-telling, and once retold enough times in it's various forms, completely muddies the waters for any new fan that comes into the hobby of how we all got where we are today with our items.

Please try to see it from OUR side of the fense as well. I'm not as vocal on this issues as some, but there are a few things I am proud of having been an integral part of this hobbies history, and sometimes I feel, at least in MY case, I need to say something. This was one of those rare times.

Regards! Michaelson

coronado3 · Post by **coronado3** » Wed May 16, 2007 2:10 pm

Guys, don't forget it is just a fictional jacket on a fictional character....

Arguing about the details of indy's jacket is like arguing about the size of Batman's nipples in that bad G. Clooney flick! (so forgetable, I forget the title)

Seriously though, you just have to buy a jacket that appeals to you, wear it and go out on adventures of your own instead of standing in the mirror and checking yourself out. Carpe Diem!

The Wings jacket is not nit-picky accurate but it sure is a heck of a fine jacket! I love it's fit and the durable nature of the goat and I love the fact that I only had to pay $79 for it! To me, these qualities are more important than having the side straps an inch up, or having the collar meet the storm flap in the middle. It just feels right to me!

C3