"The Raiders Turn" comprehensive hat-turning

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 4:43 am

I bought frame grab hardware/software for my pc, took some more pictures of my hat, drew a diagram, and tried to make everything clear. Contact me if you turn YOUR hat and have some pics I can add to the page. http://brokenheartsfixedhere.homestead. ... sTurn.html

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:00 am

Interesting work, I would have to agree with the theory.

Post by **Mike** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:33 am

3thoubucks,

Impressive results. Your mirror shot can be easily flipped in photoshop to show correctly. If you'd like me to do this for you, send a PM.

Mike

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 12:34 pm

That's some exhaustive research. Good work.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Thu Feb 13, 2003 1:28 am

Man, you gotta be up late night just like me doing all this stuff. Good work. Keep it comin'.

schwammy · Post by **schwammy** » Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:05 pm

I'm convinced. Now the question remains, "why was it turned in the first place?"

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:33 pm

Now, I have a plausible answer to that one Schwammy. Whenever Ford put that particular hat on, it was unbashed. It was styled after it was on his head, in order to get the front pinch in the middle. When he put it on, he had a buzz from the wacky backy he used to indulge in, and put it on slightly turned. The pinch was put in as well as the bashes. After that whenever he put it on, he turned it to where the front pinch would line up and there you go. When he filmed the other two, he wasn't stoned and got it right.

I do have a serious observation regarding the inside bow not being squarely in the back of the hat. I have owned a couple of hats that came from the factory with the bow not in the right place. They erred whenever it was sewn into the hat, after it was blocked. Fedora

Rick Blaine · Post by **Rick Blaine** » Thu Feb 13, 2003 11:15 pm

I admit some of the photographs do merit your theory as far as accuracy is concerned. That is not what I am arguing. What I am arguing is the fact that this was originally done for the film which I must wholeheartedly say "NO"

I have said this once, and I am not alone. Harrison Ford has a long oval head, longer than even average long oval heads. This caused the standard Herbert Johnson block (that we all know today) to stretch causing the brim to get that beautiful dramatic swoop and front profile "bend" The crown also "mushrooms" out, this effect is, to a lesser degree, achieved with your theory.

Ford received a standard 7 1/4, making the block to small for his long oval head.

Sincerest Regards.

Blaine
P.S. I remember every detail the Germans wore grey, you wore blue.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:07 am

"whacky backy"

I sustained a concussion yesterday. Maybe Ford and the boys could try that- it's legal and you get the same effect. 7 fedoras and you can reblock 'em quick?- maybe someone has rotated a hat and isn't telling us!---Rick, - there was no modification of the Raiders hat in my opinion, it was just little off center. Cheers!

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:23 am

Ok, $3k I admire your opinion and "out-of-the-box" thinking. Your research on this theory is impecable and admirable. And we should encourage this kind of thinking within this community. Keep it up. I like originality. No one here, should put you down. On the other hand, being in an open forum the other side, the ying and the yang, should also be heard to validate the theory which may or not turn into fact. Unfortunately none of us are in a position to say, FACT.

I tend to be in the camp with Rick Blaine on this one. The only thing I would modify to his post, is that Harrison Ford's noggin is not just long oval, but "extra" long oval. I have the opposite problem, I am a round oval. My problem head, reduces the brim swoop and curl. I visibly see it with my fedora's. I can put on a fedora that is perfectly sculpted on the brim, and bang, I am wearing a fedora that is flat on the brim as an Amish hat.

My next fedora is being specially constructed with special shims in the sweat band to simulate the extra long oval head. This was done with complete approval of the hatter. However, the hatter did make a statement that round oval head people do have less problems wearing general fedoras, with the exception of Indy style, Raider's hats.

Just my .02...

-Sergei
p.s. I like this discourse.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:45 am

Sergei, I hope your new hat does the trick. You might want to read Gorak's replys to my post "Was the Raiders hat turned 90 degrees?" (Page 2 "The Fedora" posts) Where Gorak says a turn is "a good solution for those who have round heads" Also check his new topics on Page 5, "NEW HAT PICS!!!!!!!" and "The Borsalino Alessandria" Gorak has a rounded head and turned his hats sideways to get the Raiders look.

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 1:03 am

3thoubucks wrote:sergei

OK, I gather from your response that your theory should help my round oval head. I agree. But, but, .... I would like my fedora to be constructed in such a fashion as to not resort to a turn. You know, it should be built from the "ground up".

I get it, I get it...

I think we are talking past each other. That's what my boss always says.

It's another way of saying, we are on the same page. But, like Rick Blaine said, I just have a hard time understanding why 30-some hats were not ordered to HF's specs. The wardrobe guy would be massacred.

-Sergei

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 1:21 am

I think the best they could do, unless you went for a personal fitting, is slip the ribbon over the crown but not sew it on, so you could adjust it. Turning a hat isn't much work, compared to shaping with steam, cutting a brim, or replacing a ribbon.----I just put "sergei" and submitted it so my reply would appear right under your post once i got it written.

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 1:31 am

3thoubucks wrote:I think the best they could do, unless you went for a personal fitting, is slip the ribbon over the crown but not sew it on, so you could adjust it. Turning a hat isn't much work, compared to shaping with steam, cutting a brim, or replacing a ribbon.

I agree to a point. It's a conundrum. It's a probable vs. possible discussion. Does that make sense? Your theory is based on possibility, but was it really probable? Something possible can conceivably occur; something probable very likely will occur.

-Sergei

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 1:38 am

This stuff is interesting. What I am after is a block that will replicate that look consistently. Nothing wrong will turning the hat a bit to get the look, but I am so nit picky that I like my bow to be centered on the side, and also for the one on the back of the sweatband to be centered. Like where it is supposed to be. But that's just me. Fedora

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 1:51 am

Try this experiment- take your hat off and look at the opening. Place your thumb at what you guess to be the midpoint of the sweatband on the bow side of the hat. Now look at the bow in relation to where your thumb is- I'll bet the center of the bow isn't where your thumb is, but closer to the back of the hat. So a typical fedora bow isn't centered to begin with. The Raiders bow is forward of normal. but it looks fairly centered. Maybe they were nit pickers and turned the hat for the sake of truly centering the bow?

TheOther Jones · Post by **TheOther Jones** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 4:30 am

Or maybe the hats were so round that the person who bashed them couldn't quite determine where the middle point of the front was (and where the pinch was supposed to be), and they bashed this particular hat slightly off-center? Look at the other hats HF wears in Raiders, none of them looks like the one above.
As an aside, my Keppler is also bashed slightly off-center, but not as much as the Raiders fedora. I wonder if Lee did it on purpose.

schwammy · Post by **schwammy** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:23 am

Actually, now that I've gotten a good night's sleep, I recall that Rundquist answered the 'why' question months ago. The hat was turned in many shots so that Ford's eyes wouldn't be covered by the brim. Watch the 'Making of Raiders' videos and notice how often Steven Spielberg tells Karen Allen to 'cheat toward the camera' so we can see her eyes.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:31 am

I also recall reading that several hats from the Cairo scene and Tanis dig ses had the sweatband and lining removed. What happens to this thesis when that is factored in? Oh, and Rick, if I recall, we (and I include myself in the 'we') pretty much said and thought the same thing to Rundquist when he was pursuing his 'floppy felt' theory, and look at the results !Optima, the PBBM and Gary White's creations are the toast of the fedora buying town. Regards. Michaelson

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:13 pm

I tend to be a bit skeptical at times. The theory is a valid and welcome one. However, turning my Keppler just the least little bit makes it a bit uncomfortable. But like you said Michaelson, if the sweatband and lining were removed from those fedoras, it is possible that that hat was turned or this and that. I find it very odd that they would do that though, I wonder what their motivation was?

schwammy · Post by **schwammy** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:15 pm

Yeah, with all due respect to Rick/Dan, if you haven't tried turning your hat, you need to. I was skeptical too, but I finally tried it today with my Fed, and I'm absolutely floored by the results. Turning your hat solves everything - reverse taper, swoop and curl, the too-forward ribbon, everything! This is really a significant step that should not be overlooked.

After reading what Josh posted about it being uncomfortable, however, I should add that I had already taken the steps of softening up my Fed via one of Dan's patented 'snot-kicking' sessions, and also removed the wire. This is necessary to simulate the Optimo-soft Raiders hat, and once those steps are taken, discomfort is not a factor.

And Rick/Dan, the propmaster wouldn't be handling wardrobe, so that wouldn't matter. And it's not a matter of 'heavy modification' at all. I did mine in about two minutes, if that. The Raiders hat was so soft, Ford could have turned and re-bashed the thing himself in a few seconds. Turning the hat would also have helped solve the problem of the hat coming off, since it makes the hat fit just a bit more tightly.

I'm really excited about this development! I never realized what a big role this played in the Raiders look. Thanks, 3thoubucks!

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:25 pm

The only reason I can think of that Ford might have turned the hat a bit is so it would "lock" onto his noggin tighter and not fall off. I think we're all in agreement that the 'Raiders' hat was much softer and floppier than the TOD and LC hats. Maybe the LC hat was just too uncomfortable to turn and make it tighter which is why they had so much trouble keeping the hat in LC.

Other than that I agree with Sergei that Ford's head is just really long oval causing the soft 'Raiders' hat to deform and the firmer LC hat to look more traditional.

Edge

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:44 pm

Personally I don't really care that much what Ford did to "his" hat during Raiders, since we ain't gonna get the same hat anyway (from the original Brazilian manufacteur, with the original block).

What is importand to me, is that I can get that special look on my hat if I'd like to! And I think - seen from that side - 3,000$ deserves credit for his observation.

Just my two cts.

Regards,

Marc

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 1:30 pm

Yes, $3K has done some great research and I do respect that. The photos of his hat are the closest I've seen to replicating the 'Raiders' look.

Rick Blaine · Post by **Rick Blaine** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 2:05 pm

3k if I have come off as "arrogant" or "rude" I apologize. Your zealous, and passionate work is certainly illustrated in your posts.
My only disagreement is I do not believe that the hat was bashed off center, I believe it only took a slight "turn" to make the "Ciaro" fedora what it is (with Harrison Ford's extremely long oval head.)

Sincerest Regards.

Blaine

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 4:26 pm

I have to agree with the extreme long oval theory, if you take your index figures placing one at front and one at back, inside the crown on the sweatband and then pull away or out to create a long oval you can see what that can do, does what I am saying make sence?

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 5:17 pm

Here's my hat, brim resting on an inverted cardboard cone. It hasn't been worn for days, yet the downward flip in the right brim remains, just because it's bashed off center.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 5:17 pm

and here's the brim dip above the right eye. ---notice the sideways tilt of the front crease- It straightens up when the hat is worn!

JohnNdy · Post by **JohnNdy** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 7:32 pm

Personally I don't really care that much what Ford did to "his" hat during Raiders, since we ain't gonna get the same hat anyway (from the original Brazilian manufacteur, with the original block).

What is importand to me, is that I can get that special look on my hat if I'd like to! And I think - seen from that side - 3,000$ deserves credit for his observation.

Agreed! Well said...

-John

Marcus Brody · Post by **Marcus Brody** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:38 pm

Rick Blaine wrote:

My only disagreement is I do not believe that the hat was bashed off center, I believe it only took a slight "turn" to make the "Ciaro" fedora what it is (with Harrison Ford's extremely long oval head.)

Wait a minute, $3k isn't using a 90 degree turn anymore, he is using a slight turn if I'm not wrong.

"The Raiders Turn" comprehensive hat-turning

"The Raiders Turn" comprehensive hat-turning

I totally agree with Fedora