My Quest Is OVER!!

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Mon Feb 10, 2003 7:04 pm

After months, and months, I can finally say the quest is over for a reasonable S&W Model 1917. I know there are more perfect guns, but for the price and the condition of this gun, I jumped on it. The big plus were the checkered, gold medallion grips that came with it. This the government gun, .45ACP so I don't have to worry about finding reasonably priced ammo. So, this is closer to the "Stembridge" gun used in Raiders (the closeup of the suitcase scene - "Besides, you know what I cautious fellow I am, Marcus" and the gun when Indy hands it over to Belloq in Hawaii).

Many, thanks to Mr. Lee Keppler for evaluating the gun for me and helping me negotiate the final price. YOU ARE THE BEST LEE!!!

Since the gun is really not a collectable anymore (the sight has been modified as well as the grip), so with clear conscious I can convert the gun to what was in the movie.

I would like to start a POLL. What do you all think I should do? Lee has a gunsmith that can do all the work in getting the barrel cut down to the 4" size and the right "sights" put on it (change it from the curved sight to the ramp up style). But what do you think? The barrel on this gun is too gorgeous to cut down. Besides, there is a nice "United States Government Property" stamping on the barrel that would be hacked off the barrell when it gets cut down.

I'm in this conundrum of perserving a nice looking gun or do I go for a "close to accurate" looking model as used in the movie.

-Sergei

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Feb 10, 2003 7:10 pm

..I'd keep it original, if only for historical reasons. You have one that has the original markings on the barrel. What would be GREAT would be if you could locate a replacement barrel, and keep that barrel back should you ever want to return it to original condition. I'd ask Lee if he knew where you could find such an animal before cutting yours down. Just my opinion, but I'm into keeping things as close to original as possible (or could you guess that?

) Congratulations, my friend. That's a rare find, and a beautiful revolver to my eye. Regards. Michaelson

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Mon Feb 10, 2003 7:18 pm

Thanks Michaelson, I really respect your opinion. I forgot to ask Lee, but would this 5.5" barrel still fit in the standard Raiders Holster?

-S

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Feb 10, 2003 7:23 pm

No, it will not, I'm sad to say, but one could be made easily enough. The Webley has a 6 inch barrel and as large a frame. Regards. Michaelson

Lee Keppler · Post by **Lee Keppler** » Mon Feb 10, 2003 10:16 pm

Hey guys, take a deep breath and RELAX!!! Ok now? First of all, the revolver is FAR from stock. The front sight has been modified to a semi ramp, by cutting the rear portion of the stock front sight. The grips are Triple Lock(First Model Hand Ejector) and Early Second Model Hand Ejector, not Government contract 1917's, which are smooth, un-checkered walnut. Also, the bore is pitted in a way that won't affect the revolver's performance, but further lowers the "Collector's value". Replacement S&W 1917 barrels are like hen's teeth. There are aftermarket barrels from a few years back floating around, and I have seen these. Unfortunatly, they are "not quite right". What I'm trying to convey to everyone is Yes, if you have a Webley MK Vl in .455, a minty 1917, unmodified, a Second model Hand Ejector in stock, minty, condition, then LEAVE IT ALONE. Sergei's 1917 would be of no interest whatsoever to a S&W collector. GOOD!! It's what that crowd calls a "shooter", and, people, that's EXACTLY what we want. Sergei, modify to your heart's content. Turning your revolver into an "Indy" gun will actually increase it's value. Hmmmm...maybe we need to talk after the "operation"

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Mon Feb 10, 2003 11:03 pm

Sergei,

That is a gorgeous firearm you've got there, my friend. Congratulations on your find. If what Lee says is true, and I have no reason to think otherwise, then I say go for it. Make the mods or it will just eat at you.

-Kyle

Canasta · Post by **Canasta** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 1:58 am

Here is my forth grade answer.
Do it. I dare ya!

That's a pretty piece. I have always liked that type of curved sight.
It's great to see the different insights from Michaelson and Lee. Very educational from both standpoints.

Best of luck

Canasta

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 2:47 am

Man, that is what I wanted. Extreme ends of opinion. What a conundrum? However, here is another thing to ask. Would I have more stopping power with that extra 1.5", more accuracy with that extra pressure? Afterall, all my gear is utilitarian so I want this sucker to be accurate and put down a perptrator in short order. Or should I just get a Ruger or Glock for those utilitarian tasks? I think I just answered my question. ....

-S

Mystique · Post by **Mystique** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 3:16 am

Sergei, if this isn't too much of a troublesome question, where did you
obtain a beauty like that? There's nary a scratch on the barrel. That
metal must have been put in a pretty cushioned case. Thanks for your
time. I like poking around in gun shops even though the men tend to
frown on it me being of the opposite sex. Did you find it locally or
from a gunshow or out of state dealer. I recollect you live in El Cajon.
Are guns hard to order from out of state? Inquiring minds want to
know... I guess Dr. Brody would be the fellow to ask.
Regards
Mystique

Mystique · Post by **Mystique** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 3:29 am

Dear Sergei,
By the by how much did it cost? Are guns like that
in that age bracket a small fortune? Or are they in the price range of
$600-800 ballpark questimate due to their antiquarian state?

Peacock's Eye · Post by **Peacock's Eye** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 9:58 am

The extra inch and a half of barrel length adds perhaps another 40 to 50 feet per second of bullet velocity and a little more muzzle energy. As to the gun being used for utilitarian purposes, it is probably best used in the field or as a car or house gun. It is not a very good concealed carry gun. There are better concealed carry guns to choose from. I know of people who use fixed sighted guns in the field because the sights are not prone to snag on clothing or other gear and won't break as adjustable sighted guns sometimes do when dropped. Enjoy your new revolver.

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 10:32 am

WOW

, I want one even more now!

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 11:30 am

Mystique wrote:Dear Sergei,
By the by how much did it cost? Are guns like that
in that age bracket a small fortune? Or are they in the price range of
$600-800 ballpark questimate due to their antiquarian state?

What drives up the cost is whether an old gun like this has all the stock parts with no mods, is in good working order and how much of the original finish is on the gun. The M1917 has so much history as does the Webley and to find one that has been taken care of , really makes the collectors open up their wallets. Like Lee said, thank God this gun has been modified (the sight has been changed), the grips are not true to the US Military version of this 1917 and the bore had two minor pits that wouldn't effect performance. If these three issues didn't exist, given the exterior condition of the gun, I would guess this gun should have sold for about the $600 to $800 range. Of course if it had history, like it belonged to a WW1 or WWII officer and that person became somewhat noteworthy, then I would say that gun would then go much higher.

But given the 3 slight issues, really fell to my advantage because the collector's wrote off this piece and I was free to negotiate with the dealer not letting on to him that this was really great piece FOR OUR HOBBY. Negotiating 101: highlight the deficiencies and play down your enthusiasm on the positives.

So for the positives, this gun was in great shape (cosmetically and mechanically) and the checkered walnut gold medallion grips were in great shape which for Indy Gun collecting, this was nirvana. Finding walnut, checkered gold medallion grips would have been another quest for, like Lee said, finding "hen's teeth". Also this gun was .45 ACP, so ammo will not be an issue due to it's availability and popularity, unlike the .455 caliber (highly unavailable and expensive).

What was the price? I feel uncomfortable in disclosing that, but here's my guidance. Assuming that this type of gun is not a collectable (given the rules above) and if the gun is in still good shooting shape, but cosmetically it looks like it's been in two wars, I would guess that the low range for these type of revolvers would be in the low to mid $200. If the gun is in better shape then it would go from $200 to mid $400, maybe $500. In my case, the dealer was asking closer to $500, given the deficiencies he came down with a logically presented argument.

I hope this helps. Like I said, the slight negatives of this gun played to my advantage.

Hope this helps.
-S

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 11:34 am

As much as I normally bow to Lee's expertise, I do not on this one. If you keep the revolver in California, then he's absolutely correct. In my neck of the woods, regardless of the changes already made to the revolver, once the barrel is cut and you damage or remove the original stamped markings, he's absolutely correct, it's a collector piece for our crowd, but nothing more. As it currently exists, even with erosion in the barrel and exchanged parts, it's worth quite a bit of money out here. Gun values on the West Coast and East Coast seem to live completely different lives. Your revolver, as is, is a valuable piece, but then you can find excellent 1950's autos out there for restoration where they're as rare as chickens teeth in the East. It's all depending on where you're currently standing at the moment. Your call, Sergei. On a personal note, I once had the barrel of an old 1926 Colt .32 Police Positive revolver cut down from a 6 inch barrel to a 2 inch for easier carry. These are a dime a dozen in the open market (or were at the time), and yet I thought I was going to be burned at the stake by the gunsmith and all in the shop. Found out that in OUR area, the old Colt was quite sought after by collectors, but since it was a personal piece and not for sale, I went ahead and had the work done. I'm sure Lee and others out West would have used it as a boat anchor. Anyway, there's my story, and I'm sticking to it. (grins) Either way you go, you have a nice revolver there, my friend. Regards. Michaelson

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 11:44 am

Sergei wrote:Man, that is what I wanted. Extreme ends of opinion. What a conundrum? However, here is another thing to ask. Would I have more stopping power with that extra 1.5", more accuracy with that extra pressure? Afterall, all my gear is utilitarian so I want this sucker to be accurate and put down a perptrator in short order. Or should I just get a Ruger or Glock for those utilitarian tasks? I think I just answered my question. ....

-S

Sergei,

In any serious situation the loss of 1.5" on the barrel isn't going to detract from it's utilitarian use. Most B&E situations where you are defending yourself, family or property take place in close quarters so a few extra meters of accuracy will not matter much. (Think "Saturday Night Specials")Just aim for the center mass at the end of your hall way and ask questions later. Now if you're out in the wilderness and you need to take down small game then the extra accuracy and distance will be a tremendous advantage.

Personally, I think you would be better served using this gun as an addition to your gear collection only. Take it to the range and pop off some rounds every now and then for fun but buy yourself a lighter gun with a clip for home defense and outdoor activity. For what it's worth...

-Kyle

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 11:51 am

KyleS wrote:
Personally, I think you would be better served using this gun as an addition to your gear collection only. Take it to the range and pop off some rounds every now and then for fun but buy yourself a lighter gun with a clip for home defense and outdoor activity. For what it's worth...

-Kyle

You are right on. Besides it's another excuse to get something else!

-S

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 12:07 pm

Kyle makes an excellent point. It all boils down to..what did YOU buy the thing for? If you wanted to have all those specifics (walnut grips...gold mediallian etc.) to duplicate the Raiders revolver, then you already have your answer. If you bought it as an investment piece, left to your estate, then cutting it will reduce or destroy the worth of your investment, so there's your answer to THAT question.If you're looking for double duty (protection, target work AND Indy gun), leave it as is. If you're wanting one for self protection, there are a lot better choices out there for a LOT less money. It's as easy as that! Regards. MichaelsonIf

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 12:55 pm

Or should I just get a Ruger or Glock for those utilitarian tasks?

Maybe this is a question for another forum... but out of all the Ruger revolvers, (45 APC) would make the best modern Indy-Gun?

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 1:10 pm

Ruger is one of my family's firearms of choice....I'd go with the Ruger Super Blackhawk, chambered either in 45ACP OR you can get one that will take the convertible cyliders (45LC AND/OR45 ACP). AWESOME shooting guns, but they are single action only, I believe. You can get them in the correct 4.5" barrel length, too, for that matter.

But the Ruger Super Blackhawks are great guns....you can see a pair of them in action in that movie "Harley Davidson and the Marlboro Man", starring Don Johnson (as the Marlboro Man) and Mickey Rourke (Harley Davidson)....1991....great movie!

Later!
Indydawg

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 1:14 pm

Ruger standard Redhawk, .44 mag., 5 inch barrel, blued. Regards. Michaelson

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 1:46 pm

Aren't ALL those Ruger revolver (Vaquero, Blackhawk, Redhawk, etc....) single action only?

Just wanted to make sure my memory was serving me correctly....
Thanks!
Indydawg

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 1:51 pm

Vaquero, Blackhawk, Super Blackhawk, yes. Redhawk, Super Redhawk are double action, double locked cylinder revolvers. Regards. Michaelson

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 3:31 pm

So, the Redhawk or Super Redhawk would make EXCELLENT modern Indy guns....

Hmmm....

Thanks for the clarification, sir!
Indydawg

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 4:04 pm

Michaelson wrote: ...Redhawk, Super Redhawk are double action, double locked cylinder revolvers. Regards. Michaelson

Michaelson, would you mind explaining "Double Locked cylinder" means? I have to admit I don't know what that is.

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 4:14 pm

I THINK it means that you can pull the hammer back part of the way and it will lock and stay (one lock), then you can pull it back the REST of the way (full cocked and second lock) and then you're "cocked and locked"...OR you can use the double action and just fire by pulling the trigger...

Michaelson?

Later!
Indydawg

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 4:44 pm

Nope. It means that unlike other double action revolver that lock at the rear and bottom of the cylinder when in 'battery', it also locks at the FRONT of the cylinder through the crane. It's so close to the original concept of the original Smith and Wesson triple lock it's scary, but MUCH stronger than the original triple lock design. The way Ruger describes it, its locks up as tight as a bank vault. Only the Redhawks and the GP-100's have this design. Regards. Michaelson

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 5:02 pm

Thanks for the lesson, my friend! I love learning new things!!!

Later!
Indydawg

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 5:17 pm

Can't help but learn on this forum... thanks again!

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 5:28 pm

I have no intention on highjacking this thread, but to 'conclude' the Redhawk discussion, I will personally ALWAYS connect the Redhawk with Raiders. It was introduced in 1979, but Ruger really didn't start pushing sales until 1980-81, and a full double page ad was in about all the gun magazines of that time period. Since we couldn't really tell WHAT the revolver was on the big screen (no frame grabs, no computer images, just the price of a movie ticket and occasional film mag pictures that showed blurry pictures), I was convinced that this big revolver filled that 'niche' for me to be THE Indy revolver. Of course, as time progressed, we learned differently. The Redhawk is still my revolver of choice, and even though I have YET to obtain one, someday I will fulfill a vow I made back then that someday I would own one. Someday I will. I sure hope the recoil won't push my wheelchair to far down the hall, though.

Regards. Michaelson

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 5:50 pm

Is this the revolver, the one you mean?

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 5:55 pm

No, that's a GP100 .357, but it has the lock up I was talking about. Regards. Michaelson

zohar · Post by **zohar** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 11:05 pm

Looks like a good one, Sergei.

Anybody here into single action shooting? I have a Ruger Vaquero (it's exactly like the single action blackhawk, but it has fixed sights instead of those ugly adjustable things) in .45 Long Colt, and like to do some off the hip shooting with it.

Lee Keppler · Post by **Lee Keppler** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 11:12 pm

Aw, c'mon! Use the sights the way the real(not reel) Wyatt Earp did and hit something. Remember, "fast is fine, accuracy's final"!

Rick Blaine · Post by **Rick Blaine** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 11:51 pm

Congratulations Sergei, I was honored to be there to share your happiness. Sincerest Regards. Blaine

P.S. "That is my least vulnerable spot"

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 1:17 am

Rick Blaine wrote:
P.S. "That is my least vulnerable spot"

Hmmm... Louis said that after, Rick,"And remember, this gun is pointed right at your heart." That's a memorable line from many in Casablanca.

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 1:42 am

OK, some more screen grabs from Indy's house. I haven't seen anyone doing screen grabs of these shots, with the exception of the gun lying in the suitcase. But here is the "Stembridge gun" being grabbed, thrown and landing right into the suitcase.

And then the final scene of the "Stembridge Gun" as it is being passed to Belloq.

-Sergei

Mystique · Post by **Mystique** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 3:34 am

Thanks Sergei, it helped me get the gist of negotiating. I could see
the gun store owners beefing up prices for something in the mainstream
like semi-autos, but for something that was probably in two wars
and modified to boot, well I figured price should have been a tad more
on a lower side. I'm used to seeing new guns in the 800-1000 and up
margin, so I'll take yours, Lee's, and Michaelson's advice to heart. Thank
you all for being there. Experienced mentors are hard to find these days.

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:37 am

You are welcome, Mystique. Just remember in negotiating for price on anything, always accentuate the negative(s) and play down your enthusiasm. You might want to detach during the negotiation, that way the buyer sees you are interested but then they become desparate if they see you ready to walk away.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:55 am

And to add, do NOT be afraid to walk away! If they realize they've blown the sale, if you wander back in in a day or two, they may have completely changed their tune, especially if you still show limited interest in the item you're REALLY after. If you're still at an impass, once again, do NOT be afraid to walk away. They were apparently not willing to negotiate in good faith, and you don't need the heartburn. There are lots more fish in the sea to put up with that foolishness. Regards. Michaelson

zohar · Post by **zohar** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 10:26 pm

Dr.Brody wrote:Aw, c'mon! Use the sights the way the real(not reel) Wyatt Earp did and hit something. Remember, "fast is fine, accuracy's final"!

Heh, I'm not into "quick draw". I just like shooting off the hip. After a while, it begins to fee like an extension of your hand, and you can pretty much hit what you want within 20 feet. This is after tens of thousands of rounds, of course (thanks to my dillon RL650).

Trebor · Post by **Trebor** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 2:59 pm

That's a really nice looking gun and I cringe at the thought of your cutting the barrel, especially if it damages the markings. I agree with Michaelson in that it's still worth more in this condition than it will be once you cut the barrel. Nice 1917's are hard to find, and actual U.S. Govt model guns even hard to find. Personally, I'd leave it as is and look for a spare barrel that you could cut. Try Gunparts corporation.

But, in the end, it's your gun. Do what you want with it and what will make you happy.

Trebor

My Quest Is OVER!!

Should the gun stay the same?

My Quest Is OVER!!

Speaking for myself...

Oh, Oh, I know this one!!!

My vote

Hey, Michaelson...

Ahhh...

Fisk...

Ahhh....

More Screen Grabs of the Gun