With the currency conversion, an AB Deluxe costs around $450. Nearly twice as much as the standard AB.
What do you get for the extra money?
Why does the AB Deluxe cost so much more than a standard AB?
Moderators: Indiana Jeff, Dalexs
The long and short of it (as I understand it) is this:
The Standard AB is made in the USA using the finest materials available that are also made in the USA. They are custom crafted by Steve Delk and blocked on one of his custom Raiders blocks (he has a few different types to choose from, I think) and they have about a 5 - 6 month wait (as of right now, I waited about 6 for mine).
The AB Deluxe is made in Germany using the finest materials available anywhere in the world. The felt is supposedly a bit thicker and denser, the sweatbands are custom roo-hide. The whole hat is custom crafted by Marc Kitter and blocked using Marc's custom Raiders block (which is a bit different than Steve's) and they have around a 3-4 month wait (as of right now, I think...I'm still waiting for mine
)
I'm sure Fedora and Marc (or anyone who is lucky enough to own both version) can chime in and further clarify the differences, but this info might help.
-GCR
The Standard AB is made in the USA using the finest materials available that are also made in the USA. They are custom crafted by Steve Delk and blocked on one of his custom Raiders blocks (he has a few different types to choose from, I think) and they have about a 5 - 6 month wait (as of right now, I waited about 6 for mine).
The AB Deluxe is made in Germany using the finest materials available anywhere in the world. The felt is supposedly a bit thicker and denser, the sweatbands are custom roo-hide. The whole hat is custom crafted by Marc Kitter and blocked using Marc's custom Raiders block (which is a bit different than Steve's) and they have around a 3-4 month wait (as of right now, I think...I'm still waiting for mine
)I'm sure Fedora and Marc (or anyone who is lucky enough to own both version) can chime in and further clarify the differences, but this info might help.
-GCR
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Michaelson
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Michaelson
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Since I own both hats like some others, and since I make the regular AB, I will tell you what the differences are. Marc seems to be making hats tonight. 
Both hats are made from pure beaver fur. Mine is made in the USA and Marc's is make in Portugal who has a reputation as making the world's finest dress felt today, 2007. And you pay for it, if you are a hatter, because their prices are higher than what USA felt is.
In addition to the pure beaver fur used, the AB Deluxe that Marc makes used a special run of felt, made to Marc's specs. He has, I think, 20 per cent more fur added to each of his bodies, that brings them up to 160 grams at the raw body weight. The regular AB that I make uses a 120 gram body. Marc also has the bodymaker to add a water repellant treament during the felting process so the treatment is actually inside the felt itself. That is something I never heard of, until Marc told me about it. But, he is having that done, to make the already water repellant beaver fur, even more water repellant. I treat all of my hats with a water repellant treatment, but it is a topical application, and has to be repeated by the owner. Marcs felt should never need any extra at all because it is inside the felt.
Sweatbands. I use a readily available sweat, made by F and S in St Joe Mo. Marc's stock sweat is a goatskin sweat that he had made special for him. He also offers a very exclusive Roo hide sweat, as an option. He buys the Roo hide, and sends it to his sweatband maker to use to make his sweats.
We use the same HJ ribbon.
Liners. I use a USA liner, made in Texas by a family run business. Marc also uses a USA liner, but from another supplier, and his liners are a thicker, pure bridal satin liner. Mine have a gold outline of the Staff of Ra, and Marc's has a multi colored Staff of Ra Headpiece, in burgundy and gold.
Our blocks are very close in shape, with each of our blocks being what each of us think the original was. But, we both worked off of the same diagrams that we exchanged over the years. But there are some very slight differences. Mostly because, I have kept tinkering with mine.
When Marc came onboard with me, he wanted to offer a truly Deluxe version of the regular AB. I mean, there were things one could do, like having the felt custom made, and the sweats custom made. And those two things are the most costly things that go into any hat. I think he basically said, that if he was gonna make an Indy fedora, he would use the best materials that one could source in the whole world. His hat is truly an international hat, whereas mine are just American made. Well, all except for the ribbon that comes from the UK. And, I would not be using that if a super dark brown was available in the USA. That ribbon is just too expensive, and way out of line with what ribbon should cost!! Modern grosgrain can be had in the USA for less than a buck a yard. The UK ribbon is 10 times that price. But, it is the right color, and the right width-39mm, and no one else besides HJ can get it. Or I should say, no one else knows the source!! And we ain't saying. (you should be proud of me Marc!! )
I am predjudiced, but I still think the AB and the AB Deluxe are the biggest bang for the buck in pure beaver hats today. While Marc's prices are high, rest assured that if you could buy what he is selling from any other established hatter, you would pay a grand, if they kept their same margins. Marc makes less on each hat he sells, than I do.
Trust me, I know what he is paying for his materials.
Now, the big question is. Which one will last longer? I am afraid I won't be around when that question can finally be answered. I figure both hats will still be in wearable condition when I take my dirt nap. Fedora
Both hats are made from pure beaver fur. Mine is made in the USA and Marc's is make in Portugal who has a reputation as making the world's finest dress felt today, 2007. And you pay for it, if you are a hatter, because their prices are higher than what USA felt is.
In addition to the pure beaver fur used, the AB Deluxe that Marc makes used a special run of felt, made to Marc's specs. He has, I think, 20 per cent more fur added to each of his bodies, that brings them up to 160 grams at the raw body weight. The regular AB that I make uses a 120 gram body. Marc also has the bodymaker to add a water repellant treament during the felting process so the treatment is actually inside the felt itself. That is something I never heard of, until Marc told me about it. But, he is having that done, to make the already water repellant beaver fur, even more water repellant. I treat all of my hats with a water repellant treatment, but it is a topical application, and has to be repeated by the owner. Marcs felt should never need any extra at all because it is inside the felt.
Sweatbands. I use a readily available sweat, made by F and S in St Joe Mo. Marc's stock sweat is a goatskin sweat that he had made special for him. He also offers a very exclusive Roo hide sweat, as an option. He buys the Roo hide, and sends it to his sweatband maker to use to make his sweats.
We use the same HJ ribbon.
Liners. I use a USA liner, made in Texas by a family run business. Marc also uses a USA liner, but from another supplier, and his liners are a thicker, pure bridal satin liner. Mine have a gold outline of the Staff of Ra, and Marc's has a multi colored Staff of Ra Headpiece, in burgundy and gold.
Our blocks are very close in shape, with each of our blocks being what each of us think the original was. But, we both worked off of the same diagrams that we exchanged over the years. But there are some very slight differences. Mostly because, I have kept tinkering with mine.
When Marc came onboard with me, he wanted to offer a truly Deluxe version of the regular AB. I mean, there were things one could do, like having the felt custom made, and the sweats custom made. And those two things are the most costly things that go into any hat. I think he basically said, that if he was gonna make an Indy fedora, he would use the best materials that one could source in the whole world. His hat is truly an international hat, whereas mine are just American made. Well, all except for the ribbon that comes from the UK. And, I would not be using that if a super dark brown was available in the USA.
That ribbon is just too expensive, and way out of line with what ribbon should cost!! Modern grosgrain can be had in the USA for less than a buck a yard. The UK ribbon is 10 times that price. But, it is the right color, and the right width-39mm, and no one else besides HJ can get it. Or I should say, no one else knows the source!! And we ain't saying. (you should be proud of me Marc!! )I am predjudiced, but I still think the AB and the AB Deluxe are the biggest bang for the buck in pure beaver hats today. While Marc's prices are high, rest assured that if you could buy what he is selling from any other established hatter, you would pay a grand, if they kept their same margins. Marc makes less on each hat he sells, than I do.
Trust me, I know what he is paying for his materials. Now, the big question is. Which one will last longer? I am afraid I won't be around when that question can finally be answered. I figure both hats will still be in wearable condition when I take my dirt nap.
Fedora
Not much I add, except perhaps the weak Dollar... Something that I unfortunately have no influence on.
The extra fur is added to make the felt denser and thereby more durable. That - together with all the other specs. I'm requesting (+/- 0,05mm tolerance in thickness, custom stiffened etc. etc. etc.) - makes that the rawbodies are quite expensive, but well worth in IMHO (otherwise I wouldn't be doing it). It also makes, that my felter has a min. requirement of 50(!) rawbodies per color!
Regarding the "dress felt": the felter I'm using can make whatever felt you want, as long as you pay for it I guess I just don't like the term "dress felt", as that can often be confused with dressy / flimsy and even though I pounce my hats to a dressy finish, they're second to none when it comes to being tough IMHO.
Now, if you think that I'm making good money on this nontheless, I will gladly share with you, that I made a loss of round about 7800 bucks in 2006, so I'm hoping for BIG cash back from taxes
Regards,
Marc
The extra fur is added to make the felt denser and thereby more durable. That - together with all the other specs. I'm requesting (+/- 0,05mm tolerance in thickness, custom stiffened etc. etc. etc.) - makes that the rawbodies are quite expensive, but well worth in IMHO (otherwise I wouldn't be doing it). It also makes, that my felter has a min. requirement of 50(!) rawbodies per color!
Regarding the "dress felt": the felter I'm using can make whatever felt you want, as long as you pay for it
I guess I just don't like the term "dress felt", as that can often be confused with dressy / flimsy and even though I pounce my hats to a dressy finish, they're second to none when it comes to being tough IMHO.Now, if you think that I'm making good money on this nontheless, I will gladly share with you, that I made a loss of round about 7800 bucks in 2006, so I'm hoping for BIG cash back from taxes
Regards,
Marc
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Africa Jones
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Yes, I am fond of calling the Portugal felt, "dress" felt, but do not take this as meaning flimsy(unless you use the 75 gram body). What I mean by the dress felt comment is this. Dress hats as opposed to western hats are traditionally a finer looking felt. That is all that I mean. The Portugal higher end felt is dress felt in the classic sense. A very fine, dressy felt. And if I were to specialize in straight dress hats, I would have to use the Portugal felt, because, I have seen none that was better, other than vintage. Now, I don't care for their rabbit dress felt, although freshly pounced, it is very nice looking. But, it can get fuzzy, fast once the iron job is gone. And new, modern rabbit just seems to taper to a greater degree with wear than the beaver blends or pure beaver.Regarding the "dress felt": the felter I'm using can make whatever felt you want, as long as you pay for it I guess I just don't like the term "dress felt", as that can often be confused with dressy / flimsy and even though I pounce my hats to a dressy finish, they're second to none when it comes to being tough IMHO.
Marc and I have different visions of the Indy fedora. And our choice of felt plays a major role in this. His felt nails what he wants in his line of hats, and my choice of felt nails what I want in my line of hats. And you guys get a choice! I would not change my felt supplier, and he would not change his. We are both satified in what we get from these guys, because our visions are not identical when it comes to felt. His hats have to scream "DELUXE" and his choice of feltmakers reflect this. Fedora
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Michaelson
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binkmeisterRick
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Michaelson
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binkmeisterRick
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No, you're not. I actually have an old Knox Vagabond I got off eBay about a year ago which is probably a 75 gram body. It's "waffer thin." It was a little beat up and faded, so I turned it inside out to get an even color. I keep attempting to sew a sweatband inside it (the original dry rotted) but haven't really been able to do do successfully. I'd love to get it spruced up for a good summer hat.
I actually have an old Knox Vagabond I got off eBay about a year ago which is probably a 75 gram body. It's "waffer thin." It was a little beat up and faded, so I turned it inside out to get an even color. I keep attempting to sew a sweatband inside it (the original dry rotted) but haven't really been able to do do successfully. I'd love to get it spruced up for a good summer hat.-
Michaelson
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Actually, I do make a few non Indy fedoras, but I don't advertise it. Mainly because I don't need THAT business. But, if someone writes or calls and wants something along the lines of a 30-ish fedora, American style with the Bogey type top crease, I will do it. And have done so. Like this one here:Speaking of hat costs/value, would you ever consider making hat styles other than fedoras (maybe you already do and the question is moot)? I was thinking of western/cowboy hats, either stock styles and sizes or custom like the famous AB's. Would the costs involved be reasonable? Do you think there is much of a demand (besides me)?
I have a decent assorment of vintage ribbon that I bought from B and L a couple of years ago, so I have the good ribbon in different colors and widths to use for these hats, but I don't really try to sell them. I don't have the time, number one, and number two, I am really only interested in making Raiders fedoras. And you guys and others have kept me snowed under since the get-go.
Art and I kinda, sorta talked about this a couple years ago. He isn't interested in making Indy fedoras and he has not studied the hat, and likes to be more creative in his hatmaking, drawing on the vintage hat styles. And I really have no interest in making other styles of hats, although I do so occasionally. So, he would probably make an Indy fedora, and I would make another style, but Art's business and mine are seeking different markets. I guess that is how you would say it, if you were being busniess like about it. Simpler said, and more to the point, I just like the Raiders fedora, and that is all I care about-period. On the western hats, the same applies above, and I have actually made a handful of western hats. Using my felter's western bodies. Very nice felt by the way and many custom western hatters use these bodies in their own lines. I think Berstein's hat is a western body from my feltmaker.
I mean, it was fun to use that western felt and make a western hat from it. A nice break from the Indy hats. And that is the reason that I never minded making an occassional non Indy hat. But only occasionally.
But if I were to want to make and sell a western hat, which I never will, I would sell them for 300 dollars for the pure beaver, and go downward from there as the various blends entered into it. They(my feltmaker) sell an assortment of different blends in their western line of bodies that is the mainstay of their business. I have not checked prices for western hats on other sites, but I feel sure this would be well below the normal market price for this sort of hat. I don't have the overhead that a walk in shop has, and that would be reflected in my pricing, along with the fact, I never expected to make much money doing this, relatively speaking. My infactuation and love of the Raiders fedora is the only reason I ended up in a small business making hats. And that normally isn't the reason most folks go into hatting, I don't think. They are in it to make a living, and fall right in with the normal market pricing of their hats. And there is not a thing wrong with that. I am just not the normal hatmaker is all I am saying. Most of these good western hatters make a heckuva living from the hat business. Many you will find traveling to Europe, and taking long expensive vacations. Good for them. And if I were a young man, I would do this myself. But I am an old coot, probably got 20 years left, if I am lucky, and I just do this as a hobby. I enjoy it. It gives me something to do. If I were not doing this, I would be creating something else as I am a hands on guy, and always have been. I used to build race engines as a hobby. I used to drag race my own creations. I used to be into model airplanes, and model cars. The kind you build yourself. This hatmaking deal is just another craft that I learned, BECAUSE of my peculiar love of a particular hat.
And I have no doubt, that when I do move on to something else, somebody here, along with Marc will still be making these hats, and with hopefully the same motivation that I have. It's all about The Hat folks, just THE HAT. Fedora
Really guys, I don't want to make western hats. Jimmy will fix you right up, and having worked for PB, I am sure he can make a great western hat. I want to stick to Indy fedoras, exclusively. I made that handfull of western hats only to learn how to work stiff felt. They sure do work up easy, is what I learned. So, I have learned all I want to know about them. I will leave those hats to the guys that love western hats, and that ain't me. Fedora
Fedora