Is a wested really authentic ?

IndianaMike · Post by **IndianaMike** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 11:11 am

hi,
I read some posts from this forum and now I'm not sure if a wested is really the same what we see in the movies. Before I bought the LC wested I told Peter Botwright that I want the same jacket like in the movie. same leather, lining, zip, etc. . But what does the original look like ? which lining ? which zip ? is it authentic ?

-Mike

Doctor_Jones · Post by **Doctor_Jones** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 11:33 am

In my eyes a Wested is authentic. It is from the same maker from the movies.
I think the authentic lambskin would be perfect for your jacket. I saw some pics of MK's jacket and it looks absolutely great. I already own two Westeds and I want another one.
About lining, the best way to go is cotton body with satin sleeves. And the zip has to be nickel like in the movies. I own one Wested with brass and one with silver but I like the last one better.
Just brows around this forum and you'll get plenty more info or just visit the jacketpage at indygear.com
But everything depends on personal taste aswell...

Hope this helps a little bit.

Regards

DJ

IndianaJames · Post by **IndianaJames** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 12:50 pm

hi,
I read some posts from this forum and now I'm not sure if a wested is really the same what we see in the movies. Before I bought the LC wested I told Peter Botwright that I want the same jacket like in the movie. same leather, lining, zip, etc. . But what does the original look like ? which lining ? which zip ? is it authentic ?

-Mike

Hi mike!
Wested is the original maker of all 48 jackets used in the first 3 films....Keep in mind that was over a decade ago! And since then things have changed a little; the leather is different - you cant get the same leather as you could back then, (although this new "Authentic Lamb" that Wested has is supposed to be pretty close") The craftsmen that make the jackets probably arent the same ones that made the jackets back then as well. Another thing to consider is that the jackets vary film to film...So deciding what jacket you like, from what film, is a good place to start. There are suble differences in each jacket - The jacket from Raiders was had regular sized pockets and a regular sized collar..its was the OG....The TOD jacket was slightly longer and had nickel hardware. The Last Crusade jacket had an inside pocket and bigger outside pockets to accomodate the grail diary, plus a bigger collar, and brass hardware. So like DOC said, browse the forum and wested site, as well as indygear.com. Pick one that you like, or take details from each jacket that you like and come up with your own!!

GOOD LUCK!
Regards
I J

PS I beleive the original lining was cotton, or cotton with satin sleeves, DOC is probably right, but someone might be able to answer that better than me....

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 1:02 pm

A correction...it's been 22 years since the first jackets were made, not a decade, so THAT is a factor that makes it all that much more amazing! Regards. Michaelson

IndianaMike · Post by **IndianaMike** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 1:29 pm

that helps much, thanks.
I compared my jacket with the details you wrote down and I think I have a very accurate jacket. Wested is definitive the way to go.
Had only the LC jacket an inside pocket ?

-Mike

Doctor_Jones · Post by **Doctor_Jones** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 1:36 pm

I think every Raider jacket has an inside pocket. The ROTLA, the TOD and the LC. You can also ask for an extra inside pocket if you like. I did but Peter forgot... But oh heck... it ain't gonna kill me.

Regards

DJ

Cooler King · Post by **Cooler King** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 2:29 pm

IndianaDan (Idaho) wanted me to post this for him:

" I must make one correction. If memory serves me correctly, the jackets manufactured for Temple of Doom were made in France by a film costume house. Wested had no affiliation with the production of the TOD jacket.
The Wested has one inaccuracy (LC). The storm flap should not have the stitched line below the top snap. The Raiders jacket had this, the LC did not. If you view the cover of the 1989 issue of Premiere (cover of Spielberg and Ford promoting LC) the top of the storm flap is clearly visible.
To the best of my knowledge (please correct me if I am wrong) the Raiders jacket also had an inside pocket with no snap. Sincerest Regards. Rick Blaine"

As well as this picture I am going to add:

If there's one man that's hot on accuracy, and knows his detail, it's Dan.

~Aaron

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 2:43 pm

Dan is correct in stating the accepted story on the Tof D jacket, though it has YET to be verified, and to date Peter states emphatically that he made the jackets for all three movies, and I have no reason not to believe him,. Most of what Dan states can be found at the IndyGear FAQ section. The TofD French jacket is one of those legends that continue to be told, and if incorrect, would be nice to finally put to bed. Yes, the Raiders jacket did have an inside pocket, but Peter states that all three available versions produced now are based on the larger LC jacket style, as it seems to be more useful due to it's larger size. Once again, to repeat an oft told urban legend, the reason the LC jacket was so different was that the original patterns had been misfiled at Wested, and Peter had to recreate the jacket by memory. When the patterns WERE located, it was to late, the jackets were already in production with the changes on the pocket sizes (for the journal) and the LC jacket was born. Once again, I'm repeated the oft told tale, and if we tell it enough times, it will become the truth. (grins) Anyway, if you ever read this, Peter, and find it complete bunk, please chime in and correct these 'urban legends' . Regards. Michaelson

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 3:07 pm

That's a strange looking jacket....the pockets seem so....small. Not at all like a Wested.

Second...who is the Rick Blaine character and why can't he post himself?

But to answer the question, if you want a REALLY good version of the LC jacket, let me know. I have some notes put back that I think could help you out with it. And the inside pocket is present in ALL the Indy jackets used in the film....

Later!
Indydawg

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 3:08 pm

I got the answers to that, IndyDawg. Rick IS Dan, and there seems to be a problem with the email address in reregistrating. I'll do some probing around and see what's going on. Regards. Michaelson

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 3:09 pm

From what I know, Dan IS Rick Blaine - that's his new name on the board I believe....

Ummm... Michaelson beat me to the punch, nevermind.

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 3:17 pm

Well, that clears THAT up.

Still wish he would just decide if he's going to be on the forum or not....

I guess I should stop now. My old prejudices are coming out. I'll just go quietly to my corner now and pull my fedora over my eyes....

Later!
Indydawg

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 3:21 pm

Yep, pour you a quick one and have a seat, old friend. There's nothing afoot. (grins) Regards. Michaelson

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 3:26 pm

I believe I will do just that....

Sure wish you were going to be with us this weekend, my man....
Indydawg

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 3:33 pm

Even if I could start out on my riding mower right now, I'd be late getting there

. Car problems galore at the 'Michaelson' plantation, but I'll definitely be with you in spirit. Don't worry, I WILL get down at a later date, I promise! Regards. Michaelson

Post by **Mike** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 3:45 pm

Indydawg wrote:That's a strange looking jacket....the pockets seem so....small. Not at all like a Wested.

Dan, that's the LC Wested on display at the Smithsonian. You can just see Spock's shoulder over the top of the jacket. The jacket and hat are authentic (along with a whip kept in the back), but the shirt under the jacket is just a "workman's shirt" as told to us by the curator at our DC summit.

Man I wish they'd change that display background.

Mike

Indiana Janice · Post by **Indiana Janice** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 4:03 pm

Peter told me that during filming of TOD they ran out of his jackets. They couldn't wait to get them from him so they had them made locally (where they were filming). He told me he DID do the TOD jackets and made them slightly longer for that particular film.

The scene where they arrive an Pankot palace shows the jacket with a square slider at the side. That was one of the "other" jackets. I discussed this with Peter in great detail and I am convinced he did the jackets for all 3 films. However there were a few "other" jackets in TOD.
Janice

IndianaMike · Post by **IndianaMike** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 4:24 pm

my last sentence

WESTED RULES ;-)

MK · Post by MK » Thu Feb 06, 2003 4:44 pm

Anytime France is involved with anything, it is going to be a little strange.

Here is what I know:

I have handled the jacket in person and it looks nothing like anything I have ever seen Peter make, yet Noel has told me to my face Peter made the jacket. Peter has told me in person on more than one occasion that he didn't make the jackets for TOD.

Now that I have probably confused everyone...............

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 5:03 pm

But, take a look at how small those pockets look on that jacket....and it almost doesn't look like there's a collar stand either.

I don't point this out as evidence that Peter did not make the jackets for all the movies he says he did...I certainly believe he did....BUT, that jacket looks almost exactly like my US Wings jacket. And as I've said before, the side strap configuration and the back panel construction/pleat construction on the US Wings jacket is DEAD TO RIGHTS straight off the film jacket for LC...now with these small looking pockets....

I guess what I'm trying to say is that maybe the US Wings jacket is more of a Last Crusade-ish jacket than we've given it credit for. I know mine looks very LC-ish when I'm wearing it....

Just food for thought and discussion.
Later!
Indydawg

Indiana Joe · Post by **Indiana Joe** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 6:10 pm

Michaelson wrote:A correction...it's been 22 years since the first jackets were made, not a decade, so THAT is a factor that makes it all that much more amazing! Regards. Michaelson

Not to quibble---I think he was referring to 1989 when LC came out.

Michaelson wrote:Even if I could start out on my riding mower right now, I'd be late getting there . Car problems galore at the 'Michaelson' plantation, but I'll definitely be with you in spirit. Don't worry, I WILL get down at a later date, I promise! Regards. Michaelson

Michaelson, I really wish you could be there but we will drink a toast to you! By the way, as far as transportation south, I heard that selling vintage Indy Gear can fetch a good price in these parts (shhhh).

Indiana Janice wrote:Peter told me that during filming of TOD they ran out of his jackets. They couldn't wait to get them from him so they had them made locally (where they were filming). He told me he DID do the TOD jackets and made them slightly longer for that particular film

MK wrote:Peter has told me in person on more than one occasion that he didn't make the jackets for TOD.

:

Indydawg wrote:....and it almost doesn't look like there's a collar stand either.

I thought there were no interfacings (stands) in the collars nor cargo pocket flaps of a Wested. If I am incorrect, please let me know. Thanks!

whew. There was a lot of stuff in this thread.

Indiana Joe

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 7:19 pm

But yes, there is indeed a collar stand on mine and there is on all Westeds I've ever seen....

And yes, Michaelson, we'll drink a toast to you!

Later!
Indydawg

IndianaJames · Post by **IndianaJames** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 7:48 pm

Thanks JOE - I did mean the LC, but hey...I said "more than a decade" which could mean 22 yrs earlier - Ha

Just foolin.....

As for Peter not making the jackets in TOD now I'M confused also, when I ordered my second jacket I could have sworn he told me he had made the jacket during a brief chat on the phone. Are we sure the Smithsonian doesnt have two I J jackets? The pic they have of the display on their website is DEFINATELY a LC jacket...that one above looks nothing like it. I agree with Dawg...theres no way thats a lc jacket....maybe Raiders?

Dan Wrote:

The Wested has one inaccuracy (LC). The storm flap should not have the stitched line below the top snap. The Raiders jacket had this, the LC did not. If you view the cover of the 1989 issue of Premiere (cover of Spielberg and Ford promoting LC) the top of the storm flap is clearly visible.

Id like to say something here...Nothing against Dan becuase weve chatted several times and I like him very much - But it does seem that we are, " all of us going around in circles.....We all forget that there were SO many jackets made (16 roughly for each film) and dont think (obviously not for sure) that each one was made by the sam man. So we are still forgetting the fact that everyone sees something different in these jackets. Perhaps becuase each one had suble differences....

I took this from the Smithsonian site: Obviously the same jacket from above...But it IS obvious this jacket was worn in the LC...On the site they state it was worn in ROTLA & LC. Who knows...Ive confused myself here...
All my honest opinion -
Thats all I can think of right now....

Cheers![/img]

Doctor_Jones · Post by **Doctor_Jones** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 7:52 pm

IndianaJames wrote:theres no way thats a lc jacket....maybe Raiders?

It does have the press studs on the stormflap so I still believe it's a LC. There were no press studs on the ROTLA and TOD jackets.

Indiana Joe · Post by **Indiana Joe** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 7:58 pm

Doctor_Jones wrote:It does have the press studs on the stormflap so I still believe it's a LC. There were no press studs on the ROTLA and TOD jackets.

That's why I was leaning toward LC for that one.

IndianaJames · Post by **IndianaJames** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 8:04 pm

PS I love the quote they have next to that picture on the website, it reads:

"The films sparked a widespread demand for the kind of clothing the hero wore, and Americans have made these symbols of adventure part of their daily lives."

Are they talking about us???!?!

High regards
James

Doctor_Jones · Post by **Doctor_Jones** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 8:08 pm

Nah... cos I ain't American

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 9:32 pm

Obviously you guys aren't seeing the same things that I am. To me, not only are the two jackets above both LC, they're probably the same jacket. Look at the distress lines on the left pockets. They look identical to me. Distressing is not an exact science. All the other marks look identical to the ones on Ford's jacket in the movie as well. In every still of LC where I've been able to make out detail, the collar stand attaches to the collar with no overlap (unlike like the other two movies). Furthermore, the collar stand in LC does not extend past the collar, but ends dead even with the collar. There is no "funky" angle, like on the US Wings jacket where the two meet. The only jacket ever to incorporate the correct LC collar attachment into it's regular design was the original Cooper way back in the late eighties. The Cooper's collar was a little pointy for LC, but it got the attachment right. The new Cooper's are different by the way. I gave my old Cooper away but I'll see if I can get picks of it soon. Cheers

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 10:40 pm

I thought the same thing. They are the same jacket. It is apparent to me using the right pocket flap(left as viewed), and going by the distress marking on the flap. Fedora

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 11:32 pm

They're definately the same jacket....I wasn't trying to say they weren't. What I WAS saying was that with that smaller looking pocket (much more like my Wings jacket) was that the current issue US Wings Indy jacket was a VERY close reproduction of the LC jacket. It meets all the requirements that I can see, with the exception of having a collar stand (I can see perfectly now that the LC movie jacket did NOT have one...VERY good pics there!!!) and not having press studs on the storm flap.

THAT'S all I was saying...was that the Wings jacket makes a helluva good LC jacket!!!

But for sure, the two pics of the jacket above are for certain the same jacket...and with the pics from the movie posted, you can tell it is the SAME jacket used in the movie...

Nicely done, gentlemen!
Indydawg

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Feb 07, 2003 10:44 am

...years? (grins) Ok, 22 years or 13 (over a decade), I was basing MY response to the number of jackets stated made for the movie. I remember over 40 being made for Raiders, but not that many ever being attached to LC, hence the 22 year referal. As stated, what ever, it's been a LONG time since they were introduced, and we're STILL discussing and ordering them! Thanks folks, I'll be toasting you as well with my morning cup of coffee! High regards. Michaelson

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Fri Feb 07, 2003 11:38 am

It's definately the....years....mostly because the years come with increases in mileage too....

You know something else...the more I look at those screen grabs from the motorcycle scene....I don't even SEE a collar stand on that jacket....it looks like the collar is just attached straight to the neck of the jacket, i.e the more typical wartime A2....with no collar stand, the storm flap just comes right up to the base of the collar.

Hmmm...very interesting!
Later!
Indydawg

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Fri Feb 07, 2003 11:49 am

MK wrote:Anytime France is involved with anything, it is going to be a little strange.

Here is what I know:

I have handled the jacket in person and it looks nothing like anything I have ever seen Peter make, yet Noel has told me to my face Peter made the jacket. Peter has told me in person on more than one occasion that he didn't make the jackets for TOD.

Now that I have probably confused everyone...............

I was hoping our long lost _ would poke his head and enter the fray. But being the good CFO, he has email from Peter that also admits to the lack of involvment for TOD. I'm not trying to stir the pot, but perhaps to correct some urban legending (is that a word?).

)

IndianaJames · Post by **IndianaJames** » Fri Feb 07, 2003 11:52 am

After taking RUNDQUISTS advice, I looked really close - Lo and Behold, HES RIGHT! Just a second here whilst I pull my big foot out of my even bigger mouth...Ahem. Ill excuse myslelf now.....

PETER · Post by **PETER** » Fri Feb 07, 2003 11:58 am

Yes it sure makes me feel old:
More facts:
I did make some jackets for TOD but not many, a french company made the top ups.
I did NOT make the jacket that Noel Howard has, I do not know where it came from but I beleive it is a french TOD.
Beleive it or not we still have the original makers
Peter Botwright- Designer and Pattern Maker of the Original
Bill Mole- Leather Cutter or Clicker ( official term) cutter of the original and still cutting.
Doris Scott: First prototype and Original jacket machinist and still machining Indy jackets
Georgie Shadwell: Original Jacket machinist and also still making Indyjackets.
Of course we have new blood but the Old Gang still exists.
Cheers
Peter

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Fri Feb 07, 2003 12:01 pm

Those should be the credits at the end of an IndyGear-type movie.

PETER · Post by **PETER** » Fri Feb 07, 2003 12:11 pm

Thats a good idea
Should I put them as credits at the end of the Wested/Indyjacket web site
with Pictures.
Maybe not as pictures of grandfathers and grandmothers may put off the punters although between four of us there is more than 200 years experience.
That really, really makes me feel even older.
I think I will quit now and oil my wheelchair.
Cheers
Peter

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Feb 07, 2003 12:22 pm

I hope somebody will take this information and place it in the FAQ or jacket section of the main site. This is information that needs to be saved. Thanks Peter! Your two posts today gave me a true chuckle! High regards. Michaelson

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Fri Feb 07, 2003 12:32 pm

Michaelson wrote:I got the answers to that, IndyDawg. Rick IS Dan, and there seems to be a problem with the email address in reregistrating. I'll do some probing around and see what's going on. Regards. Michaelson

It’s partially my fault, the woman he loved in Paris, and Ilsa was my wife… came with me on the plane bound for Lisbon instead of staying behind with him. I’ll be forever in his debt, since he sacrificed himself and the Letters of Transit that Ugarte gave to him. But Ugarte a parasite. As you know, he doesn’t mind parasites, but Rick objects to a cut-rate one. Still though… he was right… It was the beginning to a beautiful friendship.

IndianaJames · Post by **IndianaJames** » Fri Feb 07, 2003 12:39 pm

WHEW!

Im glad I wasnt the only one that was wrong about something....Now I dont feel so stupid!
Thank you Peter, VERY interesting! Makes the jacket that much more special!

Cheers

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Feb 07, 2003 12:40 pm

Uh, uh huh. (grins) Sorry, Renderking, wrong forum. You'll find the 'Casablanca' forum at down at the end of the hall.

Regards. Michaelson

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Fri Feb 07, 2003 12:55 pm

THAT ought to answer the question concerning the authenticity of a Wested!

I agree, Michaelson....we need that on the main jacket forum at the main site...

As always, Peter...high regards to you!

Later!
Indydawg

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Mon Feb 10, 2003 8:17 pm

Rundquist wrote: There is no "funky" angle, like on the US Wings jacket where the two meet [On the collar].

I did US Wings a bit of a disservice in my above statement. Their "angled" collar is similar to the TOD collar attachment. Many people in the past have said that the US Wings is closest to the TOD jacket. Cheers

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Mon Feb 10, 2003 10:27 pm

So let me see if I have this straight: all of the current Wested jackets have the same larger body as the one seen in LC, rather than the more form-fitting jacket that Ford sported in Raiders? I kind of suspected that when I first tried mine on last year. No complaints here, mind you, because I am totally in love with my Wested.

So if this is the case, then all one would have to do in order to transform their current Wested Raiders jacket into a LC model, would be to add the storm flap buttons. I presume these can be added to a jacket after it's been made?

Since I distressed my Raiders jacket to look like the one in LC (and the collar is obviously the LC size), I could simply obtain a set of snaps from Wested and have my local British leather shop attach them to my jacket!!!

-Dale

Prof. Fanara · Post by **Prof. Fanara** » Mon Feb 10, 2003 10:47 pm

whipwarrior wrote:So let me see if I have this straight: all of the current Wested jackets have the same larger body as the one seen in LC, rather than the more form-fitting jacket that Ford sported in Raiders? I kind of suspected that when I first tried mine on last year. No complaints here, mind you, because I am totally in love with my Wested.

So if this is the case, then all one would have to do in order to transform their current Wested Raiders jacket into a LC model, would be to add the storm flap buttons. I presume these can be added to a jacket after it's been made?

Since I distressed my Raiders jacket to look like the one in LC (and the collar is obviously the LC size), I could simply obtain a set of snaps from Wested and have my local British leather shop attach them to my jacket!!!

-Dale

I talked to Peter over a year ago about adding the snaps after the fact and he said that shouldn't be a problem at all.

I'm also under the impression as well that unless you figure out your exact measurements and how the "standard" cut Westeds fit on you... without asking Peter to modify the cut of the jacket, you will get a Jacket more close to LC, even if Raiders is specified.

(Again, I mean no slight by any of these comments, they are only my observations from experiences with my own jacket orderings.)

My first Wested (a Predistressed Cowhide Raiders) is not really too my liking. I'm not such a big guy and its actually too long to look right with the rest of my Indy gear. (For the record, Peter was a great help the whole way through. I just didn't know what I wanted at first.

)
My second Wested (a New Lambskin) incorporated a number of custom requests by myself (a lot of which were pioneered by MK - THANK YOU MK!) and Peter was fantastic about helping me! I LOVE this jacket! I love all my Westeds and am a big fan, but I'm guessing this board doesn't need anymore "pro-Wested" boasting because there has enough already.

If you are happy with converting your current Wested into a Last Crusade... man, I say go for it!

Ok, this has probably been more than 2 cents, but...

My 2 cents...

Best Regards,
-Prof. Fanara

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 10:11 am

I have long since left this arguement years ago, now I stand by what Peter says, I feel that he is the one to listen to when it comes to the jackets, he was there and he has a staff of people to back him up who were also there. In props you learn that when you need a prop made, sometimes, you don't care who makes it as long as it looks close to the original, I feel that is the ToD thing, I stand by Peter's facts, that's what I go by, Wested in my mind is forever the definative Indy Jacket!

Is a wested really authentic ?

Is a wested really authentic ?

Hmmm...

Re: Hmmm...

Ahh...

That's good to know...

Re: Hmmm...

And I'm probably going to send folks REALLY reeling...

I'll show you on mine...

Oh yeah

I'ts not the years, it's the, uh...

Ain't that the truth...

Well..