Observation on the Akubra "Stretch marks"

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:09 pm

If the lines on Ford's hat drive ya nuts, with trying to figure out an explanation, try this one on for size.

If Terry's hat was made on a stretcher, there is not way it would be this straight sided.

That stretcher would have made his hat a long, long oval and as this next pics shows, it ain't even a long oval......

Fedora

darthjones · Post by **darthjones** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:59 pm

Wow - this brings back memories. Believe or not, I was the guy whole told Lee where the Indy hat was made and we both got ours at about the same time! His he was VERY disappointed with at first and he showed it to me. It had a very pinched front and the crown looked somewhat short.

I felt that later on he came to enjoy it with use, things getting stretched out here, bashed there, and so forth.

But his first reactions were negative and my first reaction was that it was shorter than my HJ.

LONG time ago!

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:15 am

Here is a email to me from Ron at Hatsdirect, that I felt might help with the stretch marks on the Akubras.

Superfine felt - was a particular grade of felt, within which there are a number of variations. The thickest variation is the Sombrero which would not hold its shape if made from the thinest Superfine felt.... a small Fedora on the other hand would seem like a brick if made from this felt. Main point is the stamp represents a standard, not a particular variation within the standard.

It is my understanding (99% sure) Superfine felt has not been made as such for some years, all hats are now made within the Imperial standard or Heritage standard. These standards relate to the felting process rather than a particular thickness or finish. Akubra still use the superfine stamp to identify variations in the felt or particular finish of the hat - they agree it is confusing for outsiders, just not to them!

So older hats bought on Ebay may well be a different grade due to age, Akubra now make all hats within the Imperial grade, which is arguably better quality. If the Superfine stamp is used it is used to designate a difference within the grade. Confusing eh! I can further clarify if 3thoubucks wants to write to me.

Stretch marks - Akubra do not use expanding hat blocks as described and pictured - expanding hat blocks are used to re size older hats that have shrunk or need some modification after they have reached a retail shop or Hatter. When speaking with Akubra about obtaining a new expanding block for our shop some years ago, I was told they did not even have one in the factory - why would you when you have original sets of blocks, some dating back a 100 years!

We have the Federations treated a little differently to most other hats - the crown has less stiffener applied to it than the rest of the hat. This allows the crown to be shaped easily by those without all the gear to do so. In addition the hats are shipped one in side each other, due to the lack of taper in the crown, the sides are pushed in so the hats fit together. (To ship them separately would require individual boxes, inserts within the boxes and of course take up the space of six hats in the truck. I have not done the maths but it would add substantially to the cost of freight, handling and storage.)

The combination of the softer crown felt, the block shape (it is longer on the sides, therefore does not have the curve of the front and back to support it) and this storage method result in the indent on the sides. This is a very minor issue in our view and usually application of steam will take this out. If the indent is being stubborn wetting the area and allowing it to dry on a hat block will also assist. If the hat had more stiffener in the crown then the hats would be harder to shape but the side indents would be far less pronounced.

All Hatters and manufacturers use these techniques - the problem for hats similar to The Federations is there is no taper in the crown so they are fitted into each other by carefully pushing the crown inwards.

Due to complaints about this we no longer ship multiple Federations inside each other to retail customers, but use separate boxes. We have negotiated with the Australia Post to treat these as one item when it occurs.

Fedora

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:01 pm

On the other hand Fedora, how could one machine with only one contour be used to to nicely restore every hat size, every block shape brought into a shop? A hatter would probably want a range, and my guess is they were availabe. The sizes shapes probably interchaneable on the same machine. For instance there are a wide range of shoe stretches for sale, since people still wear shoes. This same one comes in 9 sizes. Sorry Ron, I never complained about the marks, I just noticed how it could jive with the expanding block report. I don't think you need to ship in seperate boxes, just put a cardboard collar beween hats?

When speaking with Akubra about obtaining a new expanding block for our shop some years ago, I was told they did not even have one in the factory

I'm not sure what this means. Did Ron try to buy a "new expanding block from Akubra and they didn't have one to sell him at the factory? Probably because they aren't made anymore.

OK, he probably wants to imply there were no expanding blocks, new or old in the whole factery. I JUST PULLED A NEW CARDBOAD WRAPPED ACE HARDWARE SINGLE EDGE RAZOR BLADE OUT OF THE BOX! I'm going to slice the top off a brand new never bahsed Federation. Tomorrow.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:30 pm

On the other hand Fedora, how could one machine with only one contour be used to to nicely restore every hat size, every block shape brought into a shop?

I think those devices were used to stretch out a hat that had shrunk up. A fast food version of a quick refurb. From what I have read, if your hat was getting too tight, you could drop by your local hatter(they were as numerous as shoe repair shops USED to be) or even your dry cleaners who offered hat cleaning services and they would stretch the out to your size, steam it up to freshen the felt and brush it. When you got it back, it fit once again, and it looked better from the freshening. Remember also that back in the days when these things were seen in every hat shop, the average size of a man's head was not like today. Their heads were smaller. That is why is hard to find vintage hats on ebay in sizes larger than 7 1/4. Above this size, the pickings get slim. But you find many in sizes 7 1/8 downwards, with most being around 6 7/8. This stretcher would have worked great for those common sizes during that era. Most of those stretchers are 6 1/2 inches at the base.(side to side) A 7 1/4 is 8 inches long at the base, for a regular oval. This stretcher would work great for that size, and the sizes below. Above a 7 1/4, the width increases with the length, so you maintain the 1 3/8 differential. For sizes larger than 7 1/4, you would get a long oval with the 7 3/8 hat size. For a 7 1/2, problably a long, long oval, and for a 7 5/8 a triple long oval. Needless to say, those early hatters saw few hats sized above 7 3/8.

Those small hat shops and dry cleaners also had wood hat blocks. They were used for a renovation. If the hat was shrunk, they would put it on the stretcher to stretch it out so it would fit over the block that was the hat's original size.

I guess my point is, a hat stretcher is just that, a hat stretcher. It was used to stretch out shrunken hats.

I'm not sure what this means. Did Ron try to buy a "new expanding block from Akubra and they didn't have one to

He thought Akubra might have one, but found out they are not used in hatmaking. It was a retail, small hat shop, or dry cleaners item. He wanted one I am assuming so he could stretch out hats brought in by the customers who were getting a headache from the leather shrinkage of the sweats.

Really, if you think about it, why would a hat factory even need a hat stretcher? As far as I can tell, there would be no use for it. I have never seen it mentioned in all of the accounts I have read, and the pictorials available on the net.

This reminds me of something. Ron is sending me a dvd of the Akubra factory, and it shows them making hats. I am excited as I have never seen a video of the process. He says they did leave a few parts out, but you get the basic idea of the methods and steps they take.

3M$, your idea is certainly plausible, if they made hat stretchers for each size hat. But, the ruler on the bottom of the base of all of these stretchers starts at 6 5/8 and move up to each ascending hat size. This should tell you what it is used for. They are handy to have if someone sends me a hat that is a shrunk up 7 1/4, and they want it stretched to 7 3/8. It won't fit over the 7 3/8 block, heck, it won't even fit on the 7 1/4 block!! It is shrunk up after all. So if it is a stiff cowboy hat, I just heat up the heated stretcher, and crank it down to say a size 7 and pull the hat over the stretcher, once it is hot. I let it sit until I can touch the top of the crown and it is too hot to leave my hand there. I then slowly crank out the stretcher to a size 7 1/4 and leave it there a few minutes. I pull it off, let it cool, and then do it again, this time stretching it out to the full, new 7 3/8 sizing. The needle and ruler at the bottom is the indicator. While the hat is still hot, I pull it off of the stretcher, and pull it over the new 7 3/8 block. It fits.

If it were a soft felt hat, I would mist the body with water before I stretched it out, as soft felt is worked differently than stiff felt. I want steam involved with soft felt. But otherwise the process would be the same. And that is what these are used for.

The Raiders fedora is certainly unlike what followed from HJ. It makes me want to think that Swales reblocked these hats with some wood blocks that he had in the shop. The source from Hj mentioned the size 62 and above wooden blocks. Straight sided I think he said. Now, it is possible that the smaller blocks got lost in the shuffle, or perhaps Swales took them home and used them for firewood because they were old, with cracks and were worthless. That he had the 62, (7 3/4) and perhaps a 63 would be understandable, as if you can find a 62 block on ebay, they are always in pristine condition, even when they are 70 years old. Why? Because they never got much use!!

I have 4 of them to prove it. They are brown of course, but they looked like they were only lightly used, and not a single one has a crack!!

I just have a suspicion that he reblocked those hats for the first film, using the Raiders block, in the small shop, and he did not do that for the other films. At one time, HJ offered such a wide variety of hats, including top hats and bowlers. That they had culled down the offerings by 1981 is very plausible, as most hat companies had done so by that time. But, he may have still had a set of blocks from one of those early offerings, like the hat shown at 8 o'clock in this photo.

I find it interesting that in the above pic we do not see the stock Poet with the 2 inch ribbon. Also all of the hats above could share the same block shape, with the exception of the hat at 8 o'clock. I hope everyone can clearly see this hat is totally different in blockshape. I always felt this was the Raiders block.

This would make more sense to me than Swales using a tool not designed to reblock hats on. Being a hat shop, he certainly would have had a stretcher, and a hat steamer, and apparently even an assortment of ribbon.

The Raiders hat is an anomaly, but it may be that this anomaly was because Swales reblocked those hats using wood blocks that he surely had on hand, since he refurbed hats as part of the hat business- a hold over from the times when hats were popular. That makes sense too. And Occam would be satisfied.

Fedora

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 12:31 am

The 8 o'clock hat isn't much different from Hatsdirect Federation pic.

The marks from stacking or stretching, whatever caused them, aren't too important to the Raiders look, (except maybe to index the rear of the bow side front dent.) What's REALLY interesting to me is that the position of the marks could indicate a 2 inch turn...........

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 11:31 am

OK, he probably wants to imply there were no expanding blocks, new or old in the whole factery. I JUST PULLED A NEW CARDBOAD WRAPPED ACE HARDWARE SINGLE EDGE RAZOR BLADE OUT OF THE BOX! I'm going to slice the top off a brand new never bahsed Federation. Tomorrow

Hmm. I just caught this from your earlier post.

I don't know how to take it.

All he was saying was Akubra never used that retail instrument as it is not a piece of hatmaking equipment, in Australia, or anywhere else. But, even me, a neophyte hatter knew this!! And that was why you met resistance when you hinted that it was. Ron would be glad to answer any questions you have about Akubra felt and what he observed when he visited the factory. I think Ron started out as just a retail outlet, selling hats, and probably has learned some of the craft over the years from his communication with Akubra. That was the opinon that I got. And, I could be wrong on this.

The 8 o'clock hat isn't much different from Hatsdirect Federation pic.

Yes, very close in looks. Now, I can see a different radius on the top/sides which would imply at least to me that the hats have different dome shapes. But otherwise, pretty darn close.

What's REALLY interesting to me is that the position of the marks could indicate a 2 inch turn...........

I can't disagree there at all. But what is fascinating is this week on TCM, I watched an old film noir flick that was about the Saint, someone like Bulldog Drummond from that same era. He has that crease on his hat, and my first thought was, I hope you are watching this flick and noticed the crease or dent in his hat. If you watch alot of old flicks it is amazing at the things you see on some of those hats that you have seen on the Raiders fedora. Coincidental or just a common occurence when you use a particular sort of felt to make a hat from? Fedora

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:47 pm

I cut the top off. No real visible difference in felt thickness, but it's a lot softer in the marks. Strangely the leather sweat is thicker in the middle of the mark. I've got a lot of theories........ no conclusions.

I can see a different radius on the top/sides which would imply at least to me that the hats have different dome shapes.

That's why I was willing to destroy the hat. I favor the flatter dome of the Bushman lately.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:48 pm

you did what 3thou????? you are a man in need of answers i see. wow, i guess tone can't get mad at me for steaming the #### out of my hat crowns anymore

just for kicks, do you wanna post a pic of you wearing your "really open crowned" hat

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:36 am

Something very interesting that came up in this thread were darthjones' Raiders hat recolections. He's got me believing he saw the ACTUAL main Raiders hat, turned and pleated.

I do recall that the brim had a very wide - relatively speaking - section in the front right (if you're wearing it) as it transitioned from front of the hat brim to side of the brim. I remember this well because I kept staring at it thinking WTF?!

I do recall that it had that seeming "gathering" or vertical fold of felt coming up from behind the ribbon just over Ford's right eye too. 3$ did this by sewing an actual fold in on an Akubra, I think, and it looked kinda like that.

I think this is the only recorded sighting of the hat since Raiders was made. Gives me hope the hat wasn't lost, and is sitting somewhere safe in good condition. - For someone to examine!

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:41 am

I was looking at darthjone's first post here at COW, where he quoted Richard Swales

In later years he mentioned to me that the company they had been using was screwing up in two ways - they were using lesser fur and just stretching out smaller sizes to make bigger ones.

The original Raiders felt supplier was "just stretching out smaller sizes to make bigger ones"? How did they "stretch them out" if they didn't use the machine?

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:46 am

The original Raiders felt supplier was "just stretching out smaller sizes to make bigger ones"? How did they "stretch them out" if they didn't use the machine

HJ was apparently buying their bodies the way that I do. I use a larger body to make a larger hat, as the bodies come sized for a particular hat size, from the factory. If the factory is out of a size to make a 7 1/4 hat, they could take a size 7 body and stretch it out to make the 7 1/4. It that case, the first time it got damp, it would try to convert to the smaller sized hat!!!

So, it seems at least during this time period, they were getting bodies not intended to make a particular size, but rather received a stretched out hat body that was stretched too much!!! It still happens today!!! Fedora

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:10 am

Tonak sells a wide variety of semi finished hat bodies, like this 5 1/4 inch tall one. It comes in 5 widths. What if Swales was getting something like this? I'd guess a heated expanding block would be used to make a smaller one bigger. Maybe because there are more than 5 hat sizes, or maybe to give a more modern style body with too much taper less taper.

darthjones · Post by **darthjones** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:20 am

Oh - must clarify. Swales clearly intended to mean that all the Raiders hats and such were aok and that only afterwards - TOD and onward? - did they start cutting corners with inferior felt and stretching etc.

And this development it seemed to me in our conversation had nothing to do with the movies

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:41 am

DarthJones, is your first name Steve?