Platon's Guide to the Screen Accurate TOD jacket

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:06 pm

Amazing stuff, _. So there was no "French" company afterall?

As for the marketability of a TOD style jacket, if you look back you'll readily see that the TOD jacket has always been sneered at for its horrible looks. Not deservedly, IMO, but it has been.

A few points:

1. Just because Cooper jackets were used doesn't mean that USW's current pattern hasn't been modified for mass production. Some screen caps of the elephant scene and other Sri Lanka scenes would help establish that.

2. Although Cooper made a prototype for "Raiders", it was altered for TOD (change of leather). Perhaps they were sent the TL jacket with the small vent to base their re-design on? Perhaps their jackets matched the TL jacket exactly?

3. If the Cooper was based on the TL stunt jacket, then it is likely that the basic cut is exactly the same as the "Raiders" jackets. To be honest, I don't see a difference in the cut of the jackets. By "cut" I mean length, width, taper, sleeve, etc.

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:38 pm

I just pulled out my USW and took some measurements. To my amazement, most of them are right on! However, there are some significant changes that might have been made since you were dealing with them.

1. shoulders are much wider - 2" wider
2. side straps are 2" lower
3. collar stand does not extend onto the storm flap
4. sleeve seam is under the arm (to align with side seam) rather than over the biceps.
5. Rear center panel is narrower.

These are probably concessions to cost. But the basic pattern is still discernable under it all!

Technonut · Post by **Technonut** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:59 pm

4. sleeve seam is under the arm (to align with side seam) rather than over the biceps.

That was an issue with both Wested's I had.. (Still have one)

In my case, the seams are practically in the middle of my forearms when my arms are held-out. It is not as bad with the arms at the sides, but still noticable. I was constantly pulling the sleeves around to hide the seam.

The U.S. Wings jacket has seams that are hidden and look proper...

If the seams on your jacket sleeves are like a Wested, I would not want the seams to ride over my forearms, no matter how "screen-accurate" it is.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:16 pm

_ wrote:
I disagree... And I have to say it appears you are attempting to split a hair that does not exist… Cooper made their original jacket without using anything from Peter. In fact they sent jackets to LA along with their pattern. Like a real business - they kept records. Another reason they were selected to get the license. If I wanted to push THAT fact and make deductions, I could imply even more. I know there is a desire out here to protect Peter, but call a spade a spade... He modified an existing jacket pattern he had to her specs. Her specs were close enough for Cooper to have made what would basically be called the same jacket by any reasonable person.

People need to deal with the facts... For years he claimed to have original patterns and for years we the fans received jackets that were so far off what we saw on screen as to be laughable... How many epiphanies do we give somebody - i.e. "Now I have FOUND the original patterns again" - before we all agree on the truth?

He took an order for some jackets with modifications. We can all agree that there is so much deviation on screen in RotLA that inconsistency is one of the strongest pieces of evidence that they did come from Wested, but there were no patterns. The one that got accepted was the best one and was the hero jacket. The rest were hit-and-miss...

I'm not out for a pound of flesh - just trying to document the truth... If people are so blind as to refuse to see things for what they are, then they deserve the @#$% others feed to them... IMHO...

Not really, just trying to work out what her brief to jacket makers was.

It seems that Nadoolman was far more exacting with what she wanted than jacket lore has previously stated.

You've stated that Nadoolman came to the various makers and had them produce jackets, for whatever reason she settled on one of them for the main jacket. Each one must have brought something different to the jacket. Otherwise there'd be nothing to choose between them.

Perhaps it was merely the fact of a quirk of geography. Maybe it was because the folk at Elstree knew this costumier.

Maybe she forgot to bring the Coopers with her?

In the end if the Cooper jackets were what she wanted why did she get Burmans in at all.

If Leather Concessionaires made the Raiders hero jacket we all know and love that's good enough for me.

If Coopers made the TOD then that's good too. I'll have to work around USWings' exhuberant shipping.

I can't afford a G&B.

.

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:37 pm

I understand that Cooper made a prototype for Raiders and had a pattern. Is it also not possible that when it came time to mass-produce the jacket per their contract, Lucasfilm sent them a jacket to reproduce? I could be way off.

Just to clarify on the Lee Keppler/Flightsuits/Wested (Leather Concessionaires) connection, Lee approached Peter between TOD & LC. At this point he already had FS producing a jacket based on his notes for what the Indy jacket was (This is a completely different jacket from the Expedition, btw). At the time, FS was about to change ownership (which never happened). The new ownership was giving Lee problems and he had to find a new jacket producer. Chance brought Lee to Peter and Leather Concessionaires.

Lee was floored when he found out that Peter made the original jackets for Raiders. He immediately commissioned Peter to make him one, which he did (by memory). The jacket that Lee got from Peter was the infamous “Bell Hop jacket”. It was waist length and had shoulder pads in it. It was abominable. Lee sent Peter one of his FS jackets. Many of the details from this jacket made their way into Peter’s jacket. The patented Wested reinforced inside pocket design is straight from Lee’s jacket for example.

Also I must say that I’m not trying to take anything away from Peter, he made the original jacket and no one will ever be able to take that away from him. But at this point I’m more interested in the real story than I am in having a stitch-by-stitch recreation of the jacket. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Guys like Michaelson, _, and Lee Keppler (the guys that have done actual research) are the real heroes of the hobby. Cheers

Technonut · Post by **Technonut** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:08 pm

Well, I think this information should be written-up and given a permanent sticky in this forum....

I thought it odd from the start of my joining this forum, that the original "creator" of the jacket could not reproduce it...

Even if patterns were lost, if I made something that turned-out to be a film icon, I would more than likely know how to recreate it fairly close to what I made originally....

_: I would LOVE to see pics of the "bellhop jacket"....

independent · Post by **independent** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:39 pm

Michaelson wrote:It's something that has been said for many MANY years now, but no one has ever wanted to believe, KT.

Miles, 'silly to dismiss the idea' of the Temple jacket, when we've always had it available, but no one wanted to accept that fact ? Sure, call me silly. After me being actively involved in these forums since 1996, and the hobby itself since 1981, guess I've earned that right to be 'silly' and to make such observations based on that amount of activity. It's better than some names I've been called over the years for those observations and unpopular shared information.

Regard! Michaelson

I certainly didn't know that we had a temple jacket available. Is it available? I'm finding more about that as this thread continues.

I'm not calling you silly, I'm calling silly the claim that vendors wouldn't be interested in producing new models. I gave many reasons why I thought it was silly, but none more than the fact that Wested itself is rolling out a new model.

Didn't mean to offend anybody - the point was to show my appreciation for people's efforts around here. I wanted to convey how relevant their quest is to me.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:51 pm

milesfides wrote:I'm not calling you silly, I'm calling silly the claim that vendors wouldn't be interested in producing new models. Didn't mean to offend anybody -

Miles, I made the claim. You state the claim is silly. Two and two make four.

No offense taken, but it's either one way or the other. You either accept it or you don't, but that doesn't make it 'silly'.

Regards! Michaelson

independent · Post by **independent** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:04 pm

How does the saying go, "hate the silliness, but not the person?"

I don't think you're silly at all. I would call you the MVP of this forum, at least to me. You personally answered many questions of mine and I appreciate it.

But I still think what you SAID was silly...no offense.

Back to the subject of the Cooper jacket:

I asked earlier about the Cooper's pockets on their website - they don't look like temple pockets (squared off). Puppetboy re-raised that question in a broader sense, and _ cleared that up by saying Cooper made some adjustments - which Puppetboy confirmed.

Ok. But is it fair to say that the US Wings is the closest to a temple jacket that there is - but not exactly screen accurate? Is that the bottom line?

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:17 pm

milesfides wrote: But I still think what you SAID was silly...no offense.

I'll make a note of it.

Michaelson

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:28 pm

All farily new people, this is required reading.

Rundquist wrote:I understand that Cooper made a prototype for Raiders and had a pattern. Is it also not possible that when it came time to mass-produce the jacket per their contract, Lucasfilm sent them a jacket to reproduce? I could be way off.

Just to clarify on the Lee Keppler/Flightsuits/Wested (Leather Concessionaires) connection, Lee approached Peter between TOD & LC. At this point he already had FS producing a jacket based on his notes for what the Indy jacket was (This is a completely different jacket from the Expedition, btw). At the time, FS was about to change ownership (which never happened). The new ownership was giving Lee problems and he had to find a new jacket producer. Chance brought Lee to Peter and Leather Concessionaires.

Lee was floored when he found out that Peter made the original jackets for Raiders. He immediately commissioned Peter to make him one, which he did (by memory). The jacket that Lee got from Peter was the infamous “Bell Hop jacket”. It was waist length and had shoulder pads in it. It was abominable. Lee sent Peter one of his FS jackets. Many of the details from this jacket made their way into Peter’s jacket. The patented Wested reinforced inside pocket design is straight from Lee’s jacket for example.

Also I must say that I’m not trying to take anything away from Peter, he made the original jacket and no one will ever be able to take that away from him. But at this point I’m more interested in the real story than I am in having a stitch-by-stitch recreation of the jacket. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Guys like Michaelson, _, and Lee Keppler (the guys that have done actual research) are the real heroes of the hobby. Cheers

To stand by own guns here. People need to really start listening to fellows like Michealson, _ and the like. They honestly know what they are talking about, trust I have been there and I know. The story above I lived hearing back in the day. I first heard the story from Daniel Riser. Then others filled me in on the details. Including Lee Keppler, Rundquist, MK, and this was all face to face conversation. So for those of you who may doubt this story. Let me tell you, you are looking at the stone cold truth.

Technonut · Post by **Technonut** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:09 pm

_ wrote:
Technonut wrote:Well, I think this information should be written-up and given a permanent sticky in this forum....
Well, the point would be to write an update to the jacket section of Gear. Sticky posts seem to have been taken as some kind of "license to make ones' self an expert" in some cases, and the point was really to make the Gear site the robust repository of record. It has been too easy to "post and run" without any peer review, if you will, by the staff to determine if the writer has really done their job and tied things together. Make sense?

I understand that, and agree about updating the jacket section of Gear. I also think that many come to the forum without reading the Gear site, and should be educated regarding the true events leading to origin of the jacket.

I'm not sure if the "powers that be" of the forum are concerned about "ruffling feathers" by posting verified info as a sticky, but I think most people want to know the "real deal"... The ones that do not can continue living in denial....

Captain Ron Solo · Post by **Captain Ron Solo** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:49 pm

I was a big fan of the Gear site for a couple of years before I ever even knew that there was a forum. Not sure what that says about me.

But I remember thinking that I knew everything about Indy's gear, and then I found the forum, and discovered that what was on the main page only scratched the surface (no mention of Adventurebuilt, etc.).
I look forward to any revamps of the main page.
So, who makes the best ToD jacket?

JKL
Ron

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:08 pm

Regarding the French company,....has anyone here read Sgt hacks bio book that he ships with his purchases?? Besides being an incredible read, near the end of the book, he talks about how he found out he was descended from French Royalty, and there is a section at Wings website that discusses this,....

http://www.uswings.com/thea-2pg1.asp#Ffrench

Is it possible that the jackets Cooper made were labeled with this crest,..and the story got mixed up that the jackets were actually French made??
Just a thought
'Blues

CM · Post by CM » Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:38 am

I can't say I like the look of the US Wings all that much. From all the postings I've just been looking at it, the pockets seem hideous. What's with the straight angle flaps? Why are the pockets so large? Why the three piece sleeve? It doesn't seem much to me like a TOD jacket. What am I missing?

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:06 am

Nobdoy said it was perfect, just the best TOD available. I've never been too hot on the Wings jacket myself.

Tyrloch · Post by **Tyrloch** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:19 am

Personally, I don't think it's all that bad. While maybe not totally SA, the only thing I'm really not crazy about is the stormflap not reaching all the way up to the collar. If it wasn't for that little detail, I probably would've ordered one...

~Jace

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:51 am

Tyrlock, with these currently on sale for only $79, does that really make THAT much difference?

If so, you're NEVER going to be happy with ANY jacket you ever get.

Just kidding, of course....

Regards! Michaelson

Tyrloch · Post by **Tyrloch** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:24 am

Michaelson,

Actually, to me it sort of does! I can live with non-scallopped pocket flaps, no gussetts, but for some reason the storm flap bothers me.
And there's more than a bit of truth in your last statement -- I'm still looking for the jacket that I'll be COMPLETELY satisfied with. The search goes on...

~Jace

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:01 am

Hi Jace!

I totally understand, my friend. You're not the Lone Ranger in your quest, I assure you. You have more brothers in arms here than one can shake a stick at.

Good luck in your search. I know eventually you WILL find the 'Grail'!

HIGH regards! Michaelson

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:07 am

I say it's time for Todd to consider offering a TOD jacket.
It will be a pity if he don't cause the jacket already bears his name... TOD, Todd.... you see what I mean?

Tyrloch · Post by **Tyrloch** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:10 am

Todd - Temple of D-Doom?? Oh, brother!!

Captain Ron Solo · Post by **Captain Ron Solo** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:54 pm

Michaelson,
I had emailed USW about getting a jacket and never heard back from them. Then,
Doug C wrote

They don't have any LONGS in the factory second list, I just asked via phone.

Their longs are their Temple versions, is that right?

JKL
Ron

Captain Ron Solo · Post by **Captain Ron Solo** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:57 pm

Just curious, but is there enough material at the bottom of a Raiders jacket to possibly lengthen it at all? I imagine that the resulting seam would need to be improvised somewhat, but it looks to me that a skilled seamstress (or seamster?) could coax an extra inch out of a Raiders or Last Crusade Jacket.

JKL
Ron

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:59 pm

i would think that it would look really, really bad. also, the storm flap doesn't have enough material as the reverse side/mating leather is only that length.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:00 pm

No, their longs are just that...longer jackets for long waisted people. There are no separate 'Raiders' and 'Temple' versions.

Regards! Michaelson

Captain Ron Solo · Post by **Captain Ron Solo** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:09 pm

Michaelson,
So, what makes US Wings the best Temple jacket?

Indiana G,
Admittedly, I hadn't thought about the zipper or the storm flap. Hmm. I might be willing to experiment on a jacket that I get cheap.

Anyone,
Should I still call US Wings to inquire about availability of jackets?

JKL
Ron

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:17 pm

I'm not sure how to answer that question Ron. Did you read this entire string?

There's not much more I can add to the discussion.

Regards! Michaelson

Captain Ron Solo · Post by **Captain Ron Solo** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:29 pm

Michaelson,
Yeah, I've been keeping up with the string, but I guess I got kind of lost. If the USW jacket is not longer, and apperently has inaccurate pockets, I don't see why Wested wouldn't be the way to go. At least one would get his extra inch of length. I'm really not trying to reopen the can of worms.

I just emailed US Wings again - trying to play by the rules that they set out on the website (email for availability, then call to order). We'll see if I hear anything back this time. Am I being too impatient? I waited two days?

As always, thank you for your assistance.

JKL
Ron

Doug C · Post by **Doug C** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:35 pm

Platon's right on - TODD make us a ToD jacket too!!

There seems to be a bit of confusion with what's going on regarding the sale items at US Wings, partly because they have a 'clearance' section, 'factory 2nds' offerings, and 'discounted goats in long only' and apparently some people who are inquiring about the 'factory 2nds' are getting the others at the good price. Also, because IMO the customer service aren't thoroughly aware of all the offers, etc.

Doug C

CM · Post by CM » Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:23 pm

_, sorry, I can't find this info anywhere else. Is the overseas version of the US Wings jacket different in terms of pocket size too? How do you specify which jacket you want? If the pocket was smaller, I'd be interested. I'm keen on a US made product. I love all things American.

Regards - CM

Technonut · Post by **Technonut** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:34 pm

The pockets on my Wings clearance goat, (China) are almost exactly the same size as my Wested LC.... AFAIK Wings made in the U.S.A Indy jackets have the same specs as the imports...

Doug C · Post by **Doug C** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:30 pm

The only Wings jackets I find with smallish pockets are the one from way back, a few have been posted lately and the pockets look pretty big to me, not convinced (again) if it's the best ToD jacket. Could somebody post a picture of the side vents opened on their USW jacket?

Doug C

Technonut · Post by **Technonut** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:08 pm

_ wrote:
Kt Templar wrote:
_ wrote:BTW - Michaelson has hinted that this may be the case for several years to me at least... I too have suffered from a mental block on this and for the life of me I do not know why...

So, my jacket narrative will outline the following...

1.) Leather Concessionaires made 11 jackets for use in Raiders.
2.) Cooper made the jackets for Temple, though some jackets left over from Raiders may have found limited screen time...
3.) The LC jacket was made by Wested, but was based upon a pattern created by Lee Kepler and Flight Suits...

Any claim to being "the sole maker and creator" by anybody except Deb Nadoolman is pure hubris...
Ok, not picking any sort of fight, but should that not include that jackets 2 and 3 three are based on 1? (Especially 3).
Hmmmm.... Have you ever heard the old saying, "Everything said before the word "but" is a lie...

No... I realize there is an irrational need to make all equations reach the same conclusion among some of you, i.e. that Peter created God on day 0, but it just ain't so...

Deb Nadoolman provided detailed enough specs for Cooper to have provided patterns along with their submission of jackets. That submission took place before she even left the US - before Peter Botwright even got the call from Berman to grab sample jackets and get his butt over to Berman's shop... According to the people who should know, those patterns have remained unchanged since, with the exception of the patch pocket standardization already mentioned across all of their jacket lines... These are people who have no egotistical need to lie in order to ensure their place in history with guys who dress as a fictional hero… They are business people and they have no reason to make @#$% up…

Maybe the man needs to foot the bill for a forum on his site. I'm sure I could name the moderators from a short list of naysayer’s on this string... Also, anybody who saw the bellhop jacket - and realized that this abomination was sent out with a clear conscience as being "The Raiders of the Lost Ark" jacket - well, that negates any claim in this gearheads mind... Lee had to tell St. Peter what it was the man claimed he had original patterns for!

I may be going too far in showing my lack of patience for this blind fan loyalty, but really, I have had many direct conversations with Peter over the years about the history of the jacket, and the only times I can clearly say the man was not lying to me were those moments when his mouth was closed...

I believe I am making myself fairly clear... I for one am through allowing bruised egos to use the weak-minded to turn this into a commercial site for their unchallanged self-promotion. And I will make one prediction - Todd is far to astute to allow you to sew your lips to his back-side... Just my opinion, but I'd bet the farm on it...

Does this mean I have to cancel my travel plans to Mecca... 'er.... I mean Wested Lane? What's next, no Easter Bunny???

Seriously, I would like to see the man pop-in to refute this info, but it would probably do no good anyway. He would just threaten to stop making "THE" jacket, or at least up the price for all of the bothersome requests to make a screen accurate version.

Then the sky would darken, and the roar of the faithful would cry-out to forgive the unbelievers for they know not what they say...... All will be forgiven, and the believers will be rewarded with the "final" screen accurate jacket made from the sacred pattern it's self.... $\:D/$

Damnnnn... I had better stop... I think I just heard distant thunder... 8-[

Technonut · Post by **Technonut** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:21 pm

I caught the additional material, and edited my post to include your most recent edit..... For posterity, of course...

Ripper · Post by **Ripper** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:35 pm

I always love to see your posts _ ! Im glad you are back around these parts. I always believe that one should be honest and allowed to speak his/her mind. You do it so well !

Doug C · Post by **Doug C** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:15 pm

_, I'm all ready to believe what you're saying but (with all due respect) go easy and have some patients with this. I mean look some of us haven't heard this stuff before, so sceptism seems natural. In light of this new info, I'd say you're right that there is a tendancy to follow the 'Pied Piper' and I've never been one to do that in any form. Ok got that off my chest. So, to re-cap: The US Wings jacket used to be Cooper and was the First jackets submitted to Deb Noodelman before any others, giving it the right to be considered the original creater of the Indy raiders Jacket, and still retains it's original patterns. Besides that it also saw screen time in the movie ToD. Ok, and not trying to split hairs here but wouldn't the COA that comes with a Wested still be considered correct since they were chosen (though really Leather Concesionaries or whatever) and actually got the contract ?

Doug C

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:03 pm

_ wrote:I did get 100% confirmation of the information I was given yesterday that a Cooper-made and fully licensed jacket was what Ford wore on the elephant and in the village scenes in ToD.

_ wrote:Cooper had already made jackets for Deb's review - they just were not selected for Raiders.

_ wrote:Cooper obtained the licensing agreement, pulled the patterns and cranked out jackets and they were delivered to production for Temple.

_ wrote:What I am saying is that this design we have all fallen in love with came from Deb Nadoolman. She knew what she wanted and asked suppliers to provide prototypes.

If the TOD jacket was made by Cooper from patterns leftover from Raiders, then why is the zipper pull on the wearer’s left, in the European style?

Likewise, if the jacket was designed by Nadoolman, an American, then why is the zipper pull on the wearer’s left side, in the European style?

Since everyone agrees that Leather Concessionaires constructed the screen used jackets for Raider’s, I can believe that the zipper pull was placed on the left because that was Peter’s usual way of putting together a jacket, even if the design came from Nadoolman. He simply built the jacket based on his usual conventions. I can buy that – barely.

However, if the TOD jacket is based on a Cooper pattern that was designed prior to the filming of Raiders from specification supplied by an American costumer, I find it hard to believe that the jacket would incorporate a European style zipper pull placement.

Was the Cooper pattern changed for TOD from a right to left handed zipper in order to make it look more like the Leather Concessionaires jacket used in Raiders? Why? There are so many other differences: pocket size, vent construction, length, etc. Why change the zipper pull, a small detail unlikely to be noticed by a general audience? The jackets Cooper sold to the general public immediately after TOD don’t have this style zipper, do they?

Now I am certainly open to the idea that Cooper made the jackets for TOD, and to any new evidence that they did, but it seems to me the zipper placement points to European design and/or construction.

- Mac

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:14 pm

I had no idea people thought that Peter was responsible for creating the Raiders jacket. I always assumed he was given the patterns by the costume designer to make a jacket for a film as is common in moviemaking. I always assumed it was just another job like any of the movies he'd worked on. Just that since he was the guy who actually got the job to do it. I almost always see him refered to as the 'maker' of the jacket, but maybe some got confused along the way.
Of course, nothing can take away from the fact that he did get that contract and he was the one to make it. Even if it wasn't my creation, I'd still be proud to have physically produced such an iconic jacket. Nothing wrong with that.
It'll be good once the jacket section is done so that there will be no more guessing or asking.

About the zipper...they may have just asked for the zip to be installed on the same side as the Raiders jacket for continuity. Just a thought.

Post by **Mike** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:48 pm

I agree with what 5 said. From my memory, Peter has always claimed to be the 'maker'. I think symantics got in the way with the changing of stories over the years. Remember that Deborah has stated on numerous occasions that she doesn't know Wested. Of course she wouldn't as Peter was subbed through Berman's.

With that said, let's not let emotions carry us too far into calling names. Try and keep the responses non-inflamatory.

I've been proud to see that this has gone on so long without a flame war. Let's keep it going in that vein.

And with that said..._ PLEASE do keep something for the rewrite.

Mike

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:34 am

Guys,
I think Peter made the patterns and the design.
It is impossible that Nadoolman gave Peter any patterns or design.
Nadoolman was a preson responsible for the costumes in a movie. She was no designer.

Nadoolman just gave to Peter the "general idea" of how the jacket should look like.

She told him, "I don't like the hem and cuffs on the A-2 but I like the pockets. Why don't you take a Jacket like James Dean's and add the pockets to it"

That was all. Peter designed the jacket, added action pleats, side straps and all the specs we see in the jacket. He designed it, made the patterns and finally the jacket.

The jacket is Peter's creation based on an idea by Nadoolman.
So the idea/design yes belongs to Nadoolman, but Peter made the actual design from which one can draw patterns.

Technonut · Post by **Technonut** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:21 am

PLATON wrote:Guys,
I think Peter made the patterns and the design.
It is impossible that Nadoolman gave Peter any patterns or design.
Nadoolman was a preson responsible for the costumes in a movie. She was no designer.

Nadoolman just gave to Peter the "general idea" of how the jacket should look like.

She told him, "I don't like the hem and cuffs on the A-2 but I like the pockets. Why don't you take a Jacket like James Dean's and add the pockets to it"

That was all. Peter designed the jacket, added action pleats, side straps and all the specs we see in the jacket. He designed it, made the patterns and finally the jacket.

The jacket is Peter's creation based on an idea by Nadoolman.
So the idea/design yes belongs to Nadoolman, but Peter made the actual design from which one can draw patterns.

So, you are saying that _ is mistaken about the entire matter? Even after all of the research he has done, speaking to many contacts "in the know", and taking time out of his life to set the record straight?

As a member of this site, do you think that the staff of Indy Gear would allow _ to rewrite the Jacket section
with this information if it were not true?

Perhaps you have evidence to the contrary? If so, please present it...

Ripper · Post by **Ripper** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:14 am

There are to many self proclaimed "experts" on the jacket who base their information on screen grabs and measurements taken off of a computer screen.

I'm in _'s camp, he did the research, extensive research, and I am sure he knows what he is talking about.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:32 am

It is impossible that Nadoolman gave Peter any patterns or design.
Nadoolman was a preson responsible for the costumes in a movie. She was no designer.

Her title is actually 'Costume Designer'. I think designing the costume was her primary job requirement.

There are to many self proclaimed "experts" on the jacket who base their information on screen grabs and measurements taken off of a computer screen.

I've never claimed to be an expert and in fact made it perfectly clear that my observations were almost all based on facts presented us years earlier by the old school COW and Indyfan club. However, none of it was all put in one place. It was all spread out in lots of different posts. All I did was sort it out and take the time to post screen grabs to verify what was being laid out.
It's not my fault some misunderstood my specs as being cannon. I never presented them to be the be-all-end-all and even asked for people to chime in if they thought I'd gotten anything wrong. After a while it became another small controversy.
In short, anyone could have done up a post like that, but to date nobody had. I thought it would benefit everyone who fully understood but it turned into more of a hastle since everyone thought I was trying to be Mr.Jacket.

Dr._J · Post by **Dr._J** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:53 am

Man, I am LOVING this post. I have said in the past that this forum has eroded into a "Wested and AB" publicity site (excellent products btw). Not enough comparisons nowadays. Newbies come on board and ask "What hat do I buy? Which jacket?" and are instantly answered with Wested and AB recommendations. Nothing wrong with either product, but I know for a fact there are other alternatives. I love hearing from guys who have actually done research (read articles, made phone calls, visited locations, talked to industry people, etc). _ is one of those guys. Along with Lee Keppler, MK, Michaelson and others, _ has done actual research regarding the specs of this crazy jacket we all know and love. I have always respected his input and am grateful that he has shed light on this touchy subject. Guys, listen to the man, you might learn something.

No doubt, the Indy jackets from Wested have improved over time. I credit this to input from the men mentioned above as well as Chris King, Agent 5 and others who have raised the bar for screen accuracy and asked Peter for more. If the patterns had been in Peter's hands all along, he would have made more "movie-accurate" jackets from the beginning. Makes me wonder if Gearheads hadn't asked for more and Lee hadn't provided Peter with his FS, would the bellhop jacket still exist?

Regards, Dr. J

Ripper · Post by **Ripper** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 10:14 am

I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone in particular. I enjoy the heated discussions that go on here. I usually keep quiet and don't join in. I own a Wested and I have no problem with it or them. I don't look for screen accuracy , just close. I liked the jacket that Disneyland had a few years back, it looked great in my opinion. No one outside this Forum would know the difference anyway. I'm sure most of us get laughed at when we go out in full gear anyway. Its just that this place has developed into an "I'm right and your wrong" attitude. The "its my way or nothing" mentality needs to go. Its like discussing religion. I don't remember it being this way when I joined 6 or so years ago. Still, my favorite argument has to be the brown/gray hat issue....but that's another Oprah.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:18 pm

Here's a question that popped into my head. If Cooper had the contract to do the TOD jackets, how come their jackets are so off, as with some of the Wested specs?

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 6:45 pm

Well, one fact is that the self proclaimed "experts" do not sell any jackets.
Second is that Wested, who has been under fire recently is (in my opinion)the best vendor for the simple reason that they offer CUSTOM jackets.

There are basically three products in the market that come closer to the screen accurate jacket more than any other. As you know, these are (in random order) Wested, FS and Todd's.

All the above vendors have tried to give us the screen accurate thing but none of them succeded 100%.

However, only Wested offers the privilege of allowing you to correct a few details and create a jacket to your taste. The way you see the "screen accurate" jacket.

I applause Wested for that. Regardless of whose was the original design, if Peter still has the original patterns and so on, I still think Wested is unbeateble because, it's good quality, it's cheap, it's custom and it's from the original maker.

I 'm not biased, I like jackets from other vendors as well, but I think all the above are just the facts.

Technonut · Post by **Technonut** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 6:59 pm

agent5 wrote:Here's a question that popped into my head. If Cooper had the contract to do the TOD jackets, how come their jackets are so off, as with some of the Wested specs?

Production cost-cutting measures I would imagine...

Hmmmm... Since U.S. Wings bought-out Cooper, I suppose that the jacket pattern Cooper submitted for Raiders conveyed to Wings also?

That means Sgt. Hack is sitting on the original patterns.... If so, U.S. Wings should do a limited production run for COW ...

CM · Post by CM » Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:05 am

Technonut wrote:
agent5 wrote:Here's a question that popped into my head. If Cooper had the contract to do the TOD jackets, how come their jackets are so off, as with some of the Wested specs?
Production cost-cutting measures I would imagine...

Hmmmm... Since U.S. Wings bought-out Cooper, I suppose that the jacket pattern Cooper submitted for Raiders conveyed to Wings also?

That means Sgt. Hack is sitting on the original patterns.... If so, U.S. Wings should do a limited production run for COW ...;)

I'd be interested in that if they went back to the old design with the small pockets, etc.