Platon's Guide to the Screen Accurate TOD jacket

[PLATON]

There used to be a misconception that the only difference of Rotla and Tod was the 1 inch extra length. Well, that's not the case. And the old guys in this forum know what I am talking about. So this is just a small effort to put all the info togather, in one place, to facilitate the reader. (I hate looking through old threads myself). The details and specs below are of course the outcome of study of sceen caps taking measurements and of my perception. You are welcome to debate. Everything is right unless proven wrong. (British way). I want to thank Indiana G, KT Templar and Agent5 for all the input. (Of course, everyone else I have forgotten).

Before I serve you the main course, anyone cares to order a two pronged buckle for appetizer?

Please ignore the red circles in the photos. I borrowed the photos from other posts.

1. Leather- Authentic brown lambskin leather. Heavily distressed (after you buy).

2. Pattern- 80's fit, thinner pattern with 1 inch extra length and smaller arm holes so that sleeves are narrower and piped. Fitted on the shoulders.

3. Lining- Cotton Silesia lining / body and sleeves.

4. Zipper- 8 gauge aluminum or nickel zipper with YKK standard zipper pull that extends to 1.5 inches from the bottom of the jacket like in modern Westeds.

5. Leather facing- NO leather facing on the zipper.

6. Storm Flap- 1.5 inches (3.8cm) width;

7. Collar stand- Leather collar stand. Outer collar stand support.

8. Collar - Rounded (not pointy like in Raiders) - 2.75 inches on the tips, 2.75 inches on the center. The left collar should also extend to the center of the top of the storm flap, or .75 inches from the edge of the flap.

9. Right Pocket- 2.5 inches from the zipper seam (edge of jacket).
3 inches from bottom.
Width of pocket: 5.5 inches.
Length of pocket (including pocket flap) :6 inches
Slightly scalloped pocket flap.
Pocket flap length in middle of flap, 3 inches
Side entry hand warmer pocket
Nickel snap.

10. Left Pocket- 3.5 inch from storm flap.
3 inches from bottom.
Width of pocket: 5.5 inches.
Length of pocket (including pocket flap) :6 inches.
Slightly scalloped pocket flap
Pocket flap length in middle of flap, 3 inches
Side entry hand warmer pocket
Nickel snap.

11. Side Strap- Legnth : 6 inches, Width : 1 inch
Side straps sewn with rectangular pattern NON box double stitched.
Side straps distance from hem 5.5 inches

12. Side strap buckles- Antique Brass or 1 piece two pronged buckles.

13. Action Pleats: Pleat to extend all the way down until two inches from the hem. Pleat depth- 1.5 inches

14. Yoke seam- Yoke seam 7 inches below end of collar when collar folded in position. The yoke seam to be 1 inch above the sleeves arm seam.

15. Back panel- Tapered back panel. The back panel should extend all the way out to the sleeve seam.

16. Inside pocket- Left side, slit (less leather) pocket.

17. Underarm Gussets: 2 piece underarm gussets,


Photographic evidence

Item 1.

Every screen cap of TOD

Item 2


Look at the fit on his shoulders


See how small is the arm hole and how the sleeve has the almost the same diameter in all its length

Item 3


The color of the lining is distinguishly different than the color of the leather.

Item 4


In this photo you see the size of the zippers teeth, evidence that it’s a size 8.


In this photo you can see the standard zipper pull on the jacket owned by Noel Howard which is a screen used jacket actually worn by Harrison Ford

Item 5
On the previous pic you can also see that there is no leather facing on the zipper.

Item 6


This close-up photo shows very well that storm flap width is 1.5 inches. The experienced Wested owner’s eye can attest to that.


Item 7


I really don’t know how to explain the extra pieces of leather on the outer side of the collar stand. I guess it some kind of reinforcement.

Item 8


Collar does not taper towards the center.

Item 9 and 10
Choose your poison







Item 11 and 12





If you can’t see the two pronged buckle ask and it will be shown to you.

Item 13


What better example of the maxim “a picture is equal to 1000 words”

Item 14 and 15


What I enjoy about this post is that you can show two things with only one picture.

Item 16

No photo for that, but we can rely on the fact that the original design of the Rotla Jacket was with a slit pocket

Item 17

Also no photo evidence but only Peter’s testimony that you will find if you read all his posts around here. Stunt jackets had 1 small piece gussets. And the TOD jacket had to be a Rotla left over jacket.


At least this is where the evidence leads us. I rest my case. Call Agent Mulder and Skully and the FBI forensic team to solve this mystery….

Care for a night cup?

[CM]

Man, you're very thorough!! Very well done. A service to us all.

One suggestion - my feeling in that the TOD coat is not all that well fitted on the shoulders - it is roomy/large, the seams are off the shoulders in photos I have in a TOD souvenir book at home. I don't have a scanner, so I can't send it in. I'll try and sort this out.

Excellent work, Platon

[PLATON]

Dear CM,

Thanks for your comment. That may very well be the case. However, what I am trying to show is that the TOD jacket was more fitted on the shoulders than the Rotla. Agree?

[CM]

I'll have a look and check that out. When I was first trying to get an Indy jacket in the 1980's I always felt they were about the same in the shoulders. But I agree that the TOD jacket fits differently. I think it is also partly down to Harrison's new "body by Jake" chest and the type of leather used.

Cheers - Chris

[orb]

Thanks Platon! I love this thread. Can't wait till you get over to the LC jacket
BTW would you say that this zipper is SA for the TOD jacket?
http://www.ykkfastening.com/img/goods/L/F_045_CUT.jpg

YKK MAC-86 DA C5
Size 8
Type of Chain: MA

Much regards

orb

[Indiana G]

great compilation platon

just two things to mention:

the TOD zipper pull did not go all the way to the bottom but around where the normal wested's zipper pull's end:



CM, i think the raiders jacket was fuller in the shoulders than TOD:

look at where the shoulder seams are here:



as opposed to here:

http://www.theraider.net/films/todoom/g ... ts/395.jpg
(you'll have to click on it as it's too wide to image)

what do you guys think?

[PLATON]

You 're right about the zipper. It's also visible in that pic.



I 'll correct the main post accordingly.

[rick5150]

CM, i think the raiders jacket was fuller in the shoulders than TOD

Maybe that was a modification to Harrison more than Wested. He did gain some muscle for TOD.

[PLATON]

Maybe that was a modification to Harrison more than Wested. He did gain some muscle for TOD.

Let's not forget that if in TOD HF wears what was TL's jacket in Rotla then it maybe don't fit him very well.

[Doug C]

Here's something I've thought many times but never heard anyone mention it before..and I must get it off my chest . And that is that when I see the movie or screen caps (TOD) I get the feeling that that jacket is saturated with something or is an oily leather, know what I mean.. looks to me like something has been applied to it, look at the scuffed sleeves they look that way too IMHO.

Doug C

[Rundquist]

I have to agree that the reason for the fitted shoulders was that HF was bigger than he was in Raiders. Plus if the TOD jackets were Raiders left overs, you wouldn't get a perfectly fitted jacket for HF. The shoulders don't look very tight on the picture of Chris King above. I would also say that it’s very unlikely that HF is actually wearing a Terry Leonard jacket in TOD. His jackets got very mangled during the filming. He did go under a truck. That doesn’t mean that HF wasn’t wearing one in TOD that was from the same jacket production run. Cheers

[Bogie1943]

What I am impressed with is the cut on this jacket.



Nothing looks better than a nice custom fitting. The arm holes are cut very nice here. The pocket placement with the TOD and Terry Leonard jacket does interest me. However I agree with Rundquist, I doubt Harry is wearing a Leonard jacket.

[Captain Ron Solo]

So, with all of the specs of the TOD jacket presented here, if one was to order one new from Wested, what aspects will automatically be included, and which items will have to be specified?

Bogie1943 said:

However I agree with Rundquist, I doubt Harry is wearing a Leonard jacket.

I agree. If you look at Terry Leonard's jacket the Raiders' truck drag scene, there is little or no action pleating going on.

JKL
Ron

[Bogie1943]

Agreed _, very well said. I like the TOD jacket, the pockets especially. I too would like to be able to get a really accurate replica. Perhaps one day someone will go the distance to make that happen.

[Doug C]

I'm afraid that if someone was to request the TOD side vents they'd be sorely disappointed because AFAIK Wested doesn't offer them at this point. And they are about the only group taking requests.

Doug C

[independent]

I think if anything, Platon has revitalized a lot of interest in the TOD jacket, which is a bit overdue. Maybe that discussion has taken place in the past, but that doesn't take away from the appreciation of his efforts.

The great thing about the Temple jacket is the lean look and the smaller pockets. Those are two things that are hard to argue against, whether it's due to changes in the jacket or changes in Ford's body. If the point is screen accuracy and not investigating the convoluted history of the jackets, it might be good enough for the interested consumer to observe that the temple just looks more fitted on H. Ford.

So, in short, I think vendors have an opportunity here to introduce a new model in their products.

[Michaelson]

So, in short, I think vendors have an opportunity here to introduce a new model in their products.

Just a reality check here.....why?

Why would they want to invest the monies to create the patterns that will HAVE to be created in order to cover the various sizes needed for inventory? Every size change requires changes to a pattern to keep the jacket proportional, so a completely different set of patterns for every size made.
Why would they want to invest the time and money toward separating the slight nuances that separate this jacket from a standard Raiders jacket and create a jacket that only a few individual sales will represent ANY kind of return. Break even? Not even close.

As a one -off custom, possibly, but vendors have NEVER shown any interest in creating a TofD jacket as it's just to much like what's already out there, and HAS been out there for decades. They never have, and it's been attempted by several members of our hobby in the past.

Even one of the jacket giants, U. S. Wings, have recently discontinued several of their Indy jacket models due to slow sales, keeping only their best quality and best selling versions. All other 'experiments' have gone by the wayside.

ALWAYS an interesting study....one more 'ultimate, final discussion' for the archives, until the next iteration comes up ... but let's keep things in focus. When it comes to what a vendor will do, if there's not a good return in the offing, it isn't going to happen. Dollars and cents.

Regards! Michaelson

[Rundquist]

So, in short, I think vendors have an opportunity here to introduce a new model in their products.

Just a reality check here.....why?

Why would they want to invest the monies to create the patterns that will HAVE to be created in order to cover the various sizes needed for inventory? Every size change requires changes to a pattern to keep the jacket proportional, so a completely different set of patterns for every size made.
Why would they want to invest the time and money toward separating the slight nuances that separate this jacket from a standard Raiders jacket and create a jacket that only a few individual sales will represent ANY kind of return. Break even? Not even close.

As a one -off custom, possibly, but vendors have NEVER shown any interest in creating a TofD jacket as it's just to much like what's already out there, and HAS been out there for decades. They never have, and it's been attempted by several members of our hobby in the past.

Even one of the jacket giants, U. S. Wings, have recently discontinued several of their Indy jacket models due to slow sales, keeping only their best quality and best selling versions. All other 'experiments' have gone by the wayside.

ALWAYS an interesting study....one more 'ultimate, final discussion' for the archives, until the next iteration comes up ... but let's keep things in focus. When it comes to what a vendor will do, if there's not a good return in the offing, it isn't going to happen. Dollars and cents.

Regards! Michaelson

Yep. The high end historical military jacket producers (who routinely deal with this level of insanity with their customer base) all charge 4 or 5 times the amount for one of their jackets, compared to an average Indy jacket. I like to discuss this stuff, but not with the intension of delivering a list of demands to some jacket maker. Cheers

[Doug C]

I think what you're saying Michaelson is true with the exception of Wested.. They have a good share of this market and since they're creating a new "screen accurate" Indy Jacket (which really isn't - even though I still want one) I don't think it would be that much of a stretch for them to slightly re-design the side vents and shrink the pockets - which is the basic differences. Now, they may not want to do this because then it would be held to a closer eye, and they'd be responsible for inconsistancies.. but I think it's definately an opportunity for them or anyone else, a new pattern couldn't cost that much when you already have a good base set to work from, IMO.

Doug C

[Michaelson]

True, _.

As I also said above, Doug, in a 'one-off situation', this is doable. Wested is one of the ONLY custom makers still out there doing large scale work, so they sort of fit the description by default.

Me having just gone through the pattern making, one-off jacket making scenario with them, they'll do anything you want....but as you also point out, as much as their feet are held to the fire over the points on the standard Raiders jacket, I'll be very interested if Peter would want to grab THIS tiger by the tail.

Regards! Michaelson

[Doug C]

_ wrote:

Or, you could just buy a US Wings jacket as they already have both...

I kind of brushed it off the first time you said this (in another thread) but I'm starting to hear you.. so they're pockets are smaller and the length is a bit longer.. what about the side vents, are they similar to Terry's screen used jacket or modern Westeds? I may indeed take your advice, thanks.

Doug C

[Doug C]

Michaelson - I concurr that the "One-off" is probably the only way a mfg. could see this as an opportunity, especially one that already has most of the patterning done.

PLATON - thanks for starting this thread, recent threads have made me realize that i like the TOD jacket better than the others, and it's good to get your idea (atleast) of whats accurate with an invitation to debate.

Doug C

[Doug C]

_ - I don't quite follow.. Not that I really care what Sgt.Hack thinks but I mean does Hack even know his jacket is closer to a TOD jacket than a Raiders? Also, you didn't address my question about the side vents.. ?

Doug C

[Kt Templar]

I think what you're saying Michaelson is true with the exception of Wested.. They have a good share of this market and since they're creating a new "screen accurate" Indy Jacket (which really isn't - even though I still want one) I don't think it would be that much of a stretch for them to slightly re-design the side vents and shrink the pockets - which is the basic differences. Now, they may not want to do this because then it would be held to a closer eye, and they'd be responsible for inconsistancies.. but I think it's definately an opportunity for them or anyone else, a new pattern couldn't cost that much when you already have a good base set to work from, IMO.

Doug C

Work is ongoing on the "ROTLA authentic" the pics seen so far are testers. I believe we are getting closer to a jacket that has most of the wishlist that people send in. (One detail in particular will please many especially Agent 5). .

As for a TOD Authentic and by extension a LC Authentic at a later date who knows? I know that the main bulk of Wested orders are for Raiders jackets, it really may not be worth their time or attention to adjust the pattern further. AND it has been noted that the standard pattern LC jacket Wested does is pretty close.

Other makers have the opportunity to have a crack, as a few have taken, it's difficult and expensive work and the return may not justify the expense. Much as we love to discuss everything to death most of us have finite resources and can't buy every jacket from every maker out there.

Anyway back to the US Wings, (I know I'll get told to look in the archives for this). Does anyone have a honest to goodness made in USA example they can show us to see please?

[agent5]

For those of you who know about the construction of the jackets, would you say it's easier, not easier or the same to do the side vent construction on the TOD as the Raiders and LC jackets?

[CM]

I hate to interrupt the flow of this discussion, but back to the TOD shoulder size.

I have an official movie promotional magazine about TOD, released in 1984. The back cover photo features a groups shot of Indy, Willie and Short Round. While you can't see the jacket pockets, the shoulders are clearly visable straight on. They are the same large size as the photo Platon posted above from Raiders. Looking at that photo when I was a kid, I always thought that the TOD jacket looked to be a size too big for HF.

But I do agree that in many other shots now available on the internet the coat looks more fitted. Go figure.

[Kt Templar]

Point 14. I belive the yoke is larger, like a modern Wested, also I don't think the arm seams are below the yoke seam. But don't have any pics!

[independent]

Regarding vendors having an opportunity to make this jacket - why not?

People are already making requests for a Temple-like jacket from Wested anyways. I'm not sure what the math is, but having to deal with a list of requests every single time seems more demanding than having a set of different patterns. Why adjust a Raiders to become Temple? Especially when details seem to be left out due to an overwhelmingly long laundry list of requests?

I've read on this very site that the difference between a temple and raiders was only length. Not only is the difference in length questionable, but the pocket dimensions, shoulder and sleeve fittings and other details help establish the differences in the jacket. Is it enough to motivate vendors to make another jacket?

Well, I'm a consumer, and from what I've read in the past couple weeks, I think the differences are significant enough that I prefer the temple jacket. Moreover, a longer length and smaller pockets are details that are more contemporary than vintage, which might expand the market base. Objectively, which jacket is more fashionable, the Raiders or Temple? I know some of you care less about fashion, but I think the Temple with its fitted shoulders and sleeves, longer length and smaller pockets makes it so much more attractive to me.

I think those are compelling enough reasons why vendors might pursue a Temple model jacket.

On top of that, Indy 4 is coming out, which will bring out a lot of old (I'm 27) and new fans. Millions.

And that young group is usually more fashion-conscious with a lot of buying power.

And if they wanted an Indy jacket, which features would be more attractive?

In my humble opinion, just because I consider myself a representative member of that demographic, the Temple Jacket. More fitted all over, smaller pockets, a longer length - that's cash money right there.

-btw, I took a look at the US Wings site - is it just me or do the Indy pockets not look quite right for the temple?

[CM]

Fashionable?? The differences in the three jackets are important in terms of what we see on screen, but to argue that the TOD jacket is more "fashionable" or marketable than the other two is a curious way of seeing things. By what criteria? Whose little book of what looks best are you basing this on? Besides, there just isn't enough difference in the three jackets to make that kind of call. IMHO, anyone else outside of Indy jacket enthusiasts would just see the same jacket.

With respect - CM

[Rundquist]

Regarding vendors having an opportunity to make this jacket - why not?

People are already making requests for a Temple-like jacket from Wested anyways. I'm not sure what the math is, but having to deal with a list of requests every single time seems more demanding than having a set of different patterns. Why adjust a Raiders to become Temple? Especially when details seem to be left out due to an overwhelmingly long laundry list of requests?

There was no “one” jacket used during the making of the movies. There is no definitive version.

I've read on this very site that the difference between a temple and raiders was only length.

Wested has made that statement. I’ve often stated that that is the difference in their jackets, when asked. That doesn’t mean that there weren't any differences in the film jackets.

I think the Temple with its fitted shoulders and sleeves, longer length and smaller pockets makes it so much more attractive to me.

Work out dude. Cheers

[Michaelson]

I salute your enthusiasm, miles. I, too, had the same burn for our hobby at 27 that you do now, but take the word of a feller twice your age, this is not something you're going to see happen.

I said above, and I'll say again...yes...Indy IV is coming, and yet one of the largest producers of Indy jackets is CUTTING BACK HIS INVENTORY OF INDY JACKETS! Why? Wings ALREADY sells a TofD type styled jacket. Sales, my friend...sales. Do you think a jacket company, ANY jacket company, is interested in adding yet another item to inventory just because it has a few changes to a design when they aren't selling a huge number of it's twin that's been part of its stock for decades? Money is what drives the machine, not enthusiasm for a hobby.

Millions of new fans? Let's hope so....but they're going to be more interested in acquiring what ever Ford will be wearing in the NEW movie...NOT the second, and least popular movie of the Indy series. Just us crazy old gearheads even care one way or the other. Let's face it, most of your young fashion conscious buyers are wearing A-2's, thinking they look JUST like the spitting image of Indiana Jones now.

JMO, but based on years of experience, observation, and old battle scars from having already fought that dragon. I won some, and I lost some, but it was a battle well fought, and all when I was much more enthusiastic about things. Don't lose that 'burn', my friend.

Regards! Michaelson

[Captain Ron Solo]

You beat me to it again, Michaelson. Nearly took the words out of my mouth. Except for the age part.


JKL
Ron

[independent]

I knew I was setting myself up, since a lot of you guys here sound like really rough and tumble dudes. Indy - Fashion?

But in this case, I think it's a fair assessment, since clothing was more fitted back then, and currently, the trend is returning to fitting clothes.

Also, the fact that so many people request for an 80s cut shows that many are conscious of fit. And if I'm not mistaken, the 80s cut is more screen accurate than the standard cut, which has been adopted to accommodate more body types.

What I mean by 'fashionable' just means fitting properly, as it fits properly on Harrison Ford. These days, fashion is going away from the loose and baggy clothing that dominated the 90s. That's not just my observation, but it has been written about even in the New York Times.

In response to the guy who told me to work out. I do. I just want to make sure I have a jacket that fits me the way it fits Indy.

That's as inconsiderate as my asking you, why don't you lose weight so the manufacturers can go back to making screen accurate jackets, you dig?

Here's an unpopular, but in my opinion, truthful statement: if you don't have Harrison Ford's build, screen accuracy is already compromised. No cut will make you look 160 pounds, or whatever Ford weighed.

Now, I hate to be a jerk for saying this, but the people who seem to be very interested in the little details and obsessed about fit are those who have a pretty slim build. Such as Agent5 and Platon. I'm not discounting _ and the others who've done a ton of research, but I can understand the dismissive sentiment. You guys wouldn't be interested.

But I am.

I have no problem with some folks being satisfied with the standard cut. Good for you, I am happy for you guys. But I am dissatisfied with the standard cut, I am dissatisfied with how the Raiders jacket looks, and based on the number of threads and posts here regarding this issue, it looks like I'm not alone.

And I think it's silly to dismiss the idea that a temple jacket or LC jacket could be introduced by the vendor. Why? We're finding new things about it seemingly everyday. The differences in the temple jacket are still not fully resolved.

Heck, Indy 4 could have a jacket that sports some distinguishing feature, and fans might look for it after the movie. Who knows?

I can just speak from personal experience that I googled, I found this forum, and I found Indy jacket vendors. And I STILL have not pulled the trigger for the jacket because of these issues.

And yet, I dropped several hundred dollars on Platon's well-fitting pants and NH's well-fitting shirts.

Screen accurate? Yes. Fashionable? Yes.

Wearing clothing that I can swim in is neither fashionable nor screen-accurate.

[CM]

Well there, Miles,

Such a lot of passion. I can't see it myself, but if you're happy, fantastic.

One thing you are spot on about and that's HF's build. Few of us are going to look screen accurate unless we have a smiliar build and height. But that shouldn't stop people from having fun, I guess.

All the best - Chris

[Rundquist]

I knew I was setting myself up, since a lot of you guys here sound like really rough and tumble dudes. Indy - Fashion?

But in this case, I think it's a fair assessment, since clothing was more fitted back then, and currently, the trend is returning to fitting clothes.

Also, the fact that so many people request for an 80s cut shows that many are conscious of fit. And if I'm not mistaken, the 80s cut is more screen accurate than the standard cut, which has been adopted to accommodate more body types.

What I mean by 'fashionable' just means fitting properly, as it fits properly on Harrison Ford. These days, fashion is going away from the loose and baggy clothing that dominated the 90s. That's not just my observation, but it has been written about even in the New York Times.

In response to the guy who told me to work out. I do. I just want to make sure I have a jacket that fits me the way it fits Indy.

That's as inconsiderate as my asking you, why don't you lose weight so the manufacturers can go back to making screen accurate jackets, you dig?

Here's an unpopular, but in my opinion, truthful statement: if you don't have Harrison Ford's build, screen accuracy is already compromised. No cut will make you look 160 pounds, or whatever Ford weighed.

Now, I hate to be a jerk for saying this, but the people who seem to be very interested in the little details and obsessed about fit are those who have a pretty slim build. Such as Agent5 and Platon. I'm not discounting _ and the others who've done a ton of research, but I can understand the dismissive sentiment. You guys wouldn't be interested.

But I am.

I have no problem with some folks being satisfied with the standard cut. Good for you, I am happy for you guys. But I am dissatisfied with the standard cut, I am dissatisfied with how the Raiders jacket looks, and based on the number of threads and posts here regarding this issue, it looks like I'm not alone.

And I think it's silly to dismiss the idea that a temple jacket or LC jacket could be introduced by the vendor. Why? We're finding new things about it seemingly everyday. The differences in the temple jacket are still not fully resolved.

Heck, Indy 4 could have a jacket that sports some distinguishing feature, and fans might look for it after the movie. Who knows?

I can just speak from personal experience that I googled, I found this forum, and I found Indy jacket vendors. And I STILL have not pulled the trigger for the jacket because of these issues.

And yet, I dropped several hundred dollars on Platon's well-fitting pants and NH's well-fitting shirts.

Screen accurate? Yes. Fashionable? Yes.

Wearing clothing that I can swim in is neither fashionable nor screen-accurate.

But from a vendor’s perspective it’s a loose-loose situation. A vendor will look at you (as a prospective customer) and say, “Here’s a guy that’s complaining about the jacket and he hasn’t even bought one yet.” And I don’t mean that as a put down to you. I’m just trying to show you their point of view.

Peter puts up with the fan demands only because he far outsells everyone else (I really don’t think it’s worth it to anyone else). I bet that he’d like to collectively tell the fans to put a sock in it. (Peter has never said anything remotely like this, I’m just imagining what goes through his mind).

When people start buying Indy jackets in the same numbers as Nike shoes, then maybe you’ll have some leverage. Cheers


PS- I can sympathize with you trying to get a jacket that fits you well. Unfortunately, the Indy jacket is hard to get fitted properly.

[independent]

Again, I don't pretend that I know the economics involved in the apparel industry. I don't have any experience in that industry.

But from a layman's point of view, I'm not sure why a vendor would dismiss something that might please both hardcore fans and casual fans. Both screen accurate and fashionable. I'm just saying it's coinciding with the dominant trend in fashion today - fitted clothing. And fitted clothing is screen accurate. Killing two birds with one stone.

To provide certain examples, from this past winter season, I have seen similar bomber-type or Indy jackets from Ralph Lauren, Abercrombie and Fitch, J. Crew, Banana Republic, and many more. Those were all fit-conscious jackets (I know because I've tried them on).

I'm guessing that the potential market for Indy Jackets might be slightly bigger than what it is and what many think it's limited to.

Now this is all just my opinion. I'm not an expert. In my mind, it seems like there's a lot more unexplored potential. I'm not even saying Wested should do it. Maybe they shouldn't, according to their business/workflow models.

But the tantalizing potential is there, since the Indy Jacket has a huge advantage of upcoming advertising. Well, the release of Indy 4 is a pretty compelling advertising campaign. Who else thinks that this board will catch fire after the film is released? I'll suggest that the admins brace themselves, maybe move to another server? Just kidding. But I think it'll be crazy.

Brad Pitt's leather fight club jacket started a trend that you could still see in malls today.

Movies are a powerful thing.

I don't think anybody on the boards can justifiable pretend to know how exactly the demand for Indy Jackets will express itself upon release of Indy 4. One thing for sure, it will INCREASE.

Demand from who? Well, I think Indy appeals to a broad demographic, but you gotta think that all action/adventure movies elicit a strong response from young male viewers. Now, if I were in advertising, i would anticipate what features would be important to them if they were interested in an Indy Jacket. I'll take a shot in the dark and say the most important feature is cut and fit. Why is cut and fit important to my demographic? Because. It just is. Just go to any retailer and you'll find that they now have "custom-fit", "slim fit" "tailored fit" - it is a reality. If it wasn't marketable, it would have died out years ago when they introduced it (I believe Polo was among the first retailers to reintroduce a fitted silhouette).

Also, I'm not complaining about a jacket that I haven't received. Not at all. I think Wested is offering a remarkable service. I'm just not using it, because as a consumer, I'm exercising my right to purchase what I want. I'm not complaining, I'm just giving my reasons why I'm not buying yet. If none of the vendors care, then they don't care. Maybe somebody will step up to the plate. Some already seem to be doing so.

Anyways, I don't need really need to post this, since vendors are moving toward that direction anyways.

Maybe I posted because of the irony that I have a build similar to Ford's, but it seems like that's the fit that's hard to get.

[CM]

This is turning into an amusing debate. Got to admit, Miles, I'm with the others on this. Can't see your arguments working in the world of commerse. The corporate universe of Ralph Lauren et al is a whole different system, with different rules and backing resources to support it. But, we'll see in time.

As for Indy 4 - what if it doesn't get made? What if it bombs? What if HF wears a new design jacket in keeping with the 1950's period it might be set in? There are so many possible variables.

Michaelson is right about people's attention to detail. If everyone wants an Indy jacket, they'll ve wearing distressed A2's. That's what happened in the 1980's during the last films - I was there!

HF's build? You must be fortunate. So am I, I guess. I'm pretty much exactly his height and weight. All I need now is his face...


Keep the enthusiasm Miles. It's good to hear.

[Tyrloch]

_,

So you're saying that the jacket in the pics that KT posted a few posts above this one, are a Cooper-made jacket? At least the first 2 pics I mean...

~Jace

[Kt Templar]

I'm surprised nobody seems to care, but I did get 100% confirmation of the information I was given yesterday that a Cooper-made and fully licensed jacket was what Ford wore on the elephant and in the village scenes in ToD. Cannot speak to Pankot or the sound stage shots, but it appears to this old gearhead that the story line we've heard over and over ("It was just a bit longer") was so much fertilizer. Personally I'm going to wrap-up the jacket section rewrite and put on my body armor...

It's not we don't care, we're just waiting with baited breath.

It would be deeply ironic if the Cooper turned out to actually be screen accurate after all these years.

[Michaelson]

It's something that has been said for many MANY years now, but no one has ever wanted to believe, KT.

Miles, 'silly to dismiss the idea' of the Temple jacket, when we've always had it available, but no one wanted to accept that fact ? Sure, call me silly. After me being actively involved in these forums since 1996, and the hobby itself since 1981, guess I've earned that right to be 'silly' and to make such observations based on that amount of activity. It's better than some names I've been called over the years for those observations and unpopular shared information.

Regard! Michaelson

[agent5]

though some jackets left over from Raiders may have found limited screen time...

So then the Temple jackets left over from Raiders were copied by Cooper? I just went over screen caps from TOD yesterday as well as all the bts stuff and every single jacket shown on screen has the same characteristics as the Raiders stunt jacket.
At this point I was under the impression that either Cooper made the Raiders jacket T.Leonard is wearing in Raiders which was later used for TOD, or Cooper made several copies of that jacket for use in TOD.
The whole point is that the design of the TOD jacket is exactly the same as the Raiders T.Leonard jacket. You say the Raiders jackets 'may' have gotten some screen time but I have yet to see this Copper jacket, unless it WAS the Raiders T.Leonard jacket.
I thought Michaelson already stated that Cooper said they made jackets for Raiders? Didn't you recently read this in a post too, _?

[Technonut]

BTW - Michaelson has hinted that this may be the case for several years to me at least... I too have suffered from a mental block on this and for the life of me I do not know why...

So, my jacket narrative will outline the following...

1.) Leather Concessionaires made 11 jackets for use in Raiders.
2.) Cooper made the jackets for Temple, though some jackets left over from Raiders may have found limited screen time...
3.) The LC jacket was made by Wested, but was based upon a pattern created by Lee Kepler and Flight Suits...

Any claim to being "the sole maker and creator" by anybody except Deb Nadoolman is pure hubris...

Far Out _.... :!: Thanks for all of the info. I find all of this very interesting, and am glad to know "what is what" concerning these jackets...

[Doug C]

_ wrote:

but I did get 100% confirmation of the information I was given yesterday that a Cooper-made and fully licensed jacket was what Ford wore

OK, I'm interested..please tell how this was confirmed..did you see a lable or what?

Doug C

[Kt Templar]

BTW - Michaelson has hinted that this may be the case for several years to me at least... I too have suffered from a mental block on this and for the life of me I do not know why...

So, my jacket narrative will outline the following...

1.) Leather Concessionaires made 11 jackets for use in Raiders.
2.) Cooper made the jackets for Temple, though some jackets left over from Raiders may have found limited screen time...
3.) The LC jacket was made by Wested, but was based upon a pattern created by Lee Kepler and Flight Suits...

Any claim to being "the sole maker and creator" by anybody except Deb Nadoolman is pure hubris...

Ok, not picking any sort of fight, but should that not include that jackets 2 and 3 three are based on 1? (Especially 3).

[agent5]

Ok, not picking any sort of fight, but should that not include that jackets 2 and 3 three are based on 1? (Especially 3).

That's not picking a fight, that's just pointing out what we already know. It was my understanding that Peter didn't have the patterns for the LC jackets and used the jacket he made for Keppler years earlier ( and a FS? ) to reverse engineer the jackets for LC.
I'm just not understanding the Copper connection to the Raiders and TOD jackets and I would also love some clairty to that story.

[Doug C]

Sorry, I wrote after you'd (_) had already posted answer to my question. OK, where does the French company (that we've always heard of) fit into all of this, or was that a made up info? I can't imagine many stunt jackets being made 'cause there really isn't many stunts in TOD where the jacket was worn.

Doug C

[Michaelson]

agent5 et.al , I am the one who muddied the waters regarding the Cooper- Raiders connection. To Wings, all the Indy movies are 'Raiders of the Lost Ark'. It was just another jacket/movie contract to them. In my questioning regarding the Cooper, I made the assumption when 'Raiders' was stated, it was referring to the first movie.

In retrospect (and review of my corrospondence), I now see all 3 movies have always been refered to as 'Raiders' by David, and he was talking about the elephant scene when I was asking about the truck scene, My question to him was regarding 'the jacket worn by Ford when he was riding in the film on location'....I never mentioned WHAT he was riding in my inquiry, I so was talking about one film, and he another.

THAT'S a perfect example of how miss-information, if repeated enough times, becomes 'fact'. Sort of reminds you of what Indy said in the classroom.

Regards! Michaelson

[agent5]

Gotcha, 4&5. Makes total sense. When shopping I always have to stress I'm looking for RAIDERS items only. If I don't they vendors bombard me with all the sequel @#$%. Alot of people jumble them all together, but you won't find any of those people here.

So, _, the new info you've gotten confirms then that the T.Leonard jacket from Raiders was indeed a Cooper and in the entire film of TOD we're seeing Cooper jackets? It makes sense because as you said, they do make the best TOD jacket. It also makes sense that both Noel and Peter had no idea who the maker of the jacket was in Noels possession.

Can we ask how you came by this info or are you waiting to unveil it at a later date?

[agent5]

So then the jackets used for TOD by Cooper were off of Nadoolman's patterns from the Raiders jackets or from the T.Leonard jacket worn in Raiders. I'm just completely trying to completely make the connection between the jacket worn by Leonard which matches the TOD jacket 100%.

[Kt Templar]

We are also mixing "pattern" with "design".

I don't know what her brief to the jacket makers were. Was it loose ie: Oh, like an A2. Or was it more exacting: Including, the "patch" pockets, no knits, action pleat, side straps. That would be the "design".

However, if as previously stated. Peter brought his jacket body to the party and Noodleman suggested adding A2 style pockets then the "design" is a collaberation. The "pattern" is Peter's.

We know the famous preproduction paintings were more A2 like than anything.