Lost and Wandering in the Fedora Super-Store

Dr.Seuss · Post by **Dr.Seuss** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:52 pm

Years ago, this Post was thought provoking. Is it actually more topical today? There can be little dispute the "Indy hat" purchaser is besieged by choices. The novice, generally without the opportunity to actually handle, feel, and test drive the product, is faced with "which?"

"Which," presumably requires answering the question, "what?" What is the purpose: screen accuracy (regardless of how it looks on my head), or, does it make me look like "Indy" (taking into account my height/weight/face shape).

Agent 5's comments:

"I first joined this site back in about 98' and when I did the HJ, and the PB were the kings of the Indy hat world. Before then we had the Miller and a couple of others, some of which my board predecessors would recall much better than myself.

Upon first getting into thoughts of buying the gear I began looking for the perfect Indy hat and it seemed at the time the HJ was being pushed aside for the newer Peter's Bros. hats which Joe Jr. was churning out at a fast pace and took the gear world by storm. Evenryone who was new to the board could not help but notice the vast amounts of gearheads buying them and the reveiws were pouring in by the 10's and 20's. Every time a new soul reported for gear duty, they were directed to the new PB's. It seemed to be the perfect Indy fedora. Bulletproof, they called it, even though it clearly was not. It was simply an annoying a punn which stuck. Never mind the bad reviews, not that there could be many becuase many were stuck on the bandwagon. Even if there was a negative thing to say, some were simply afraid to say it. At least, that was my thought on it.

Soon after, or perhaps even in the midst of the PB craze comes the Keppler. Again, news of the Keppler spead like wildfire and all the newbies were pointed out to it. Soon the reviews came in and it seemed a new dog was on the Indy horizon. It didn't take long for the Keppler to gain in popularity and for sales to flourish. No word on how long it'd take you to get it, but when you did, all said they were more than thrilled with it. Soon talk of the PB dropped considerably and the Keppler took it's place of the 'hat of the day' here on COW.

Then came to onslaught of the Akruba's. Standard, Federation, Deluxe, etc. People were still wearing their PB's and Kepplers along with a few die hards who still stuck to their guns and their HJ's. However, it wasn't long before everyone and their mother was telling every other gearhead to get a Fed. Fed this and fed that. Soon people began to buy into the fed craze and were laying down their other felts for the newly, highly regarded Fed. It seemed to be the new buzz. Whether you were an expert on the subject or just a newbie, you could count on someone to tell you it's the best hat for the money and you should get one. Never mind the other hats or hat makers, the Fed was it! Or, at least, that's what the majority was telling us.

The Fed's had a long run but soon after came the discovery of the thinner felts and Optimo. Soon it started all over again. Word of the new, lightweight felt seeped into the veins of COW and soon a new craze was born. It seemed it was the felt we'd been waiting for and a new fedora craze was on. People were laying down the PB's and Fed's the HJ was now off the radar screen. The buzz had begun again and the Optimo was the new word of the Indy fedora world. If you were just joining us at that time, you were directed to Optimo if you wanted a serious Indy hat and had a larger pocketbook. Kids were pinching pennies and some adults were too. Either way, you were told that Optimo was the bee's knees and that if you had the dough, you were in the know. Otherwise, it was back to an Akruba for you.

During the tail end and slightly after the Optimo craze came other offers from smaller vendors trying to rescue the now debunked HJ and they had a few takers who wanted to go back to the early days of Indygear youth. It was a slightly stagnant time of the Indygear fedora. Reviews were slower and the vendor scene came to a sort of standstill.

Winding down to the present, we have a new top dog in town. The Adventurebilt fedora. It didn't take long for the AB to get to where it is today, at the top of the fedora food chain. The reviews came swiftly and the results were all good. It seemed Indygear finally had an in-house hatter who cares. The quality is as good of any of the previous offerings and it seems people here just cannot get enough of this hat. The AB is the new 'flavor of the month', or year as it usually goes here.

Looking back on all of this I find a pattern that emerges and it's not just there, but other boards as well. When something get's popular to a certain group, the group as a whole overhadows the rest. We hardly hear talk of the Fed, Optimo or HJ and almost never hear of the PB's anymore. All talk has focused on the new. As it has been for some time now, whenever someone posts asking about the older offerings, their told to save money and look into the AB. Because the majority are now getting into ordering these, the fever is now in full swing and iI've found it almost seems trivial to the group as a whole even consider another hat. When newbies now come in the door, you can bet your bottom dollar that the one hat they will be told to buy is the AB, by the majority of members. When some ask what the cheapest Indy fedora is to get, some are simply told to get an AB. Not even a correct answer to the question, but that's the type of pattern that emerges here and abroad.

I was thinking about this pattern we see here and I'm wondering if those posting these sorts of things are honest in their opinions or if they are falling prey to the mojority opinion. I wonder how many of those posting about the AB have EVER seen or handled any of the many other offerings we have here? We do still have them, don't we? Over the years I've seen people say things like "PB is the best", or "You have to get a Fed, it's the best Indy hat", but had they ever owned another fedora or even had the chance to compare their new favorite hat with ANY of the other offerings of the time?

I just was thinking about all of this and about how I have seen these patterns emerge over the years. I wonder just how much experience those who are constantly posting about certain products have with other products in the COW lineup? Not just fedoras, but with any of the gear. We see people saying, 'Why get that when you can have the best fedora/jacket/pants/etc. out there?" , but do they REALLY know the product before they speak up? Maybe so.

I do know that many, many, many people have been swayed and sent down the wrong path by reviews that have been less than truthful or knowlegeable, especially early on in this hobby. In the end, it's all up to whatever is your personal taste to decide what gear is best for you and how you want to use it. I just hope that we don't see too many more people 'jumping on the bandwagon' and that we get a look at the BIG picture and not forget we have quite a few vendors out there who don't get the recognition they should or as much as they should around here. anymore I can see looking back that it's easy to get trapped into so many positive reviews but we can't forget that there is a flipside to everything and that some of these products have good AND possibly some bad, as past ventures have shown. Heck, it used to be "You have to get a PB, they're tough as nails!", now instead of PB, it's AB. It's funny when you've been here a while and you can look back and see these sorts of things taking place. The bandwagon. It makes me wonder who the flavor or the month will be next year or the year after that? Where will gear be in 2 years? Where can we go?

Years later, there are now many excellently made hats. Designs have been modified and materials improved. Your choice, thick felt, thin felt, tall or short crown, dark brown, reddish brown, light brown, narrow ribbons, wide ribbons, stiff, floppy, bulletproof or mantlepiece, Adventurebilt, Akruba, JPD, Optimo, PB, HJ, etc., etc. Obviously, there is no one hat for everyone. (Fedora resorted to making his own, and still tweaks the design to this day).

Which, out of the box is the most screen accurate hat?

As to "real world fit," how about offering some specs (brim/crown, etc.) vs general physical descriptions (such as six feet, four, 215 pounds and narrow face). As we know, a hat on someone 5 foot, 5 inches tall, 145 pounds, does not look the same as on someone 240 pounds, and six feet tall.

Thoughts?

Sincerely,

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:24 pm

Good post (both yours and Agent5's) and very relevant. I've owned a few hats in my day, and I've been around this hobby, sometimes posting, sometimes on the fringe, since the late 90's as well. I saw the rise and fall of many of those same hats that 5 mentions in his post. Bought a few of them, too.

I think the bandwagon effect can sometimes go to far. I've seen it happen where someone will post a question about an Akubra, let's say, and someone will post a reply like "Why not just buy an AB?"

I can't complain too much, I've done sort of the same thing myself, on occasion.

However true the bandwagon theory may be, some of the rise and fall of the different hats, over the years can also be attributed to the evolution of this hobby and what people look for in an Indy fedora, or what people consider screen-accurate. Like the Indiana Miller, for example. People thought the crown was too short, the brim didn't have a dimensional cut and the ribbon was too wide. Now, aside from the crown height (which wasn't too short, really) the other issues could be remedied by cutting the brim and changing the ribbon yourself. But it seems like people didn't want to spend 100 bucks or more on a hat and have to tear it apart and cut it up in order to make it look right. And I can understand that. Later hats seemed to fill that desire by making improvements to their designs that set them ahead of the current fedora crop. Like the PB...it came with a taller crown, dimensionally cut brim, and a thinner ribbon (though I think in some cases the ribbon was too thin). Each hat seemed to take us one step closer to screen-accuracy and Indy hat perfection, as each "craze" came and went. And I don't think there is much further to go, to be honest.

As far as screen accuracy goes, speaking from my own experiences with the hats I owned over the years (Dorfmans, Stetson Temple, Millers, Akubra Fed Deluxe, JPD & my new AB) the AB is the most screen-accurate right out of the box. The rabbit JPD is a fairly close second, but it's also about 150 dollars cheaper than a beaver AB. I have yet to recieve my AB Deluxe from Marc, so I'm curious to see how that stacks up against the others.

Good thread (did I already say that? I forget...) by the way!

-GCR

K on the run · Post by **K on the run** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:34 pm

Interesting reading.
If you check this link to JAN's site you'll find a guideline that gives good advice regarding head shapes/hat sizes.

http://indianajones.dk/Webside/Billeder ... 0heads.htm

Best regards,
Kim

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:02 pm

Very well written, both from you and from Agent5!

We've come a VERY long way since the Stetson Temple and the DP and that's just what it is: a way to the best possible. When I got my PB back then, it was the "flavor of the month". It was the first "real hat for a real world" compared to all the toy hats, we'd been playin' with otherwise (i.e. official wool felt hats etc.). And it was custom made, so you could finally get the brim and crown as wide and high as you wanted. The problem: it was too bloody stiff! That was something the Akubra took care of: great color, good block shape, contrasting BROWN ribbon etc. etc. etc. Each hat in that row of hats you mentioned has some advantages that the former "flavor of the month" didn't have. DISCLAIMER: BIASED OPINION

Finally Steve came around with Adventurebilt. A fully handmade and high quality Fedora that had something so far noone else had taken the plunge to do: THE block! We had the screen accurate colors on the felt, people could rework and redye the bow thanks to Dalexs most excellent tutorial and we could put fuller's earth in the right spots to make our hats look accurate, but noone had that darn block shape right, before "one of our own" took it upon himself. So in every step that we've moved away from the now so behated DP, we've moved one step closer to what many of us believe is THE hat. For some that will always be a vintage HJ, for others other factors are more important. We should be lucky to have so many choices and I'm sure that - even without being the latest flavor of the month - some hats will stay around for a very long time due to a factor that is desired by some of us.

Regards,

Marc

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:04 pm

When some ask what the cheapest Indy fedora is to get, some are simply told to get an AB. Not even a correct answer to the question, but that's the type of pattern that emerges here and abroad.

Best comment of the year 2007-

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:27 pm

When some ask what the cheapest Indy fedora is to get, some are simply told to get an AB. Not even a correct answer to the question, but that's the type of pattern that emerges here and abroad.

It would be the best comment of 2007 if it was the entire quote.

I think people say" to get the AB when asked this question", is to help the newbie out. As not to waste their money on hats that they will not be happy with and not spend more money on a few of the lesser hats trying to be ( a peny wise and a pound foolish). I know I wish someone would have givin me the heads up so I didn't spend so much money trying to save a few dollars and went straight to the AB. I spent more money than the AB costs on hats that just didn't hold up.

I seen a pattarn were people buy the lesser hats and then complain about it in a short time and end up getting to the AB. Why waste time and money.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:55 pm

I seen a pattarn were people buy the lesser hats and then complain about it in a short time and end up getting to the AB. Why waste time and money.

I agree and I would advise the same, but some come here and say they only have $100 to spend and people still tell them to save up to get an AB, even though that isn't in the equation.

As not to waste their money on hats that they will not be happy with and not spend more money on a few of the lesser hats trying to be ( a peny wise and a pound foolish).

I disagree with this only because so many have been completely satisfied with their Fed's or their Kepplers, etc. Not everyone wants nor needs top quality or can afford to pay for it. Even if some can, they can't logically see themselves spending that much on a hat, which I can understand. Of course, most of those people are the minority as is obvious, but that's ok. We cater to all levels of fans.

Man, I disappoint myself at my grammar errors in that thread. Jeesh!

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:13 pm

But to be fair (even though I am a renowned AB fan) there have been those fans who were perfectly happy with their non-AB purchases. Sure, many of us (myself included) are serious hat buyers/wearers, but there are plenty of folks who want a hat just to costume about with, or to use as a display. These are the folks who may love the quality of an AB, but who simply don't wish to budget that much for a hat.

When people ask me what hat to get, I almost always ask them the following: What are you looking for? What's your budget? I think it may be implying a bit much to assume we know what a newbie will be happy or disappointed with. We should do our best to present all the information and opinions in a fair manner, but in the end, it's the buyer's decision, whether he buys an Adventurebilt or a Dorfman Pacific.

I like variety in my hats. I am a proud owner of three Adventurebilts. I have owned an Akubra (and am thinking of getting another someday) and have seen Optimo's, Millers, Stetsons, Dorfman's, Kepplers, HJ's, and PB's in person. I'd love to see a JPD and Camptown in person. I've heard a range of opinions and reviews of each of these. They all have their merrits, strenghts, and weaknesses. Not one hat will make everybody happy, because everyone's tastes and needs vary. So again, it comes down to doing our best to present all the information and letting the newbie (or oldie) take the plunge and buy the hat he chooses, whether he's ultimately happy with the purchase or not.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:00 pm

I've just read the entire string, and can only say, 'flavor of the month' is a pretty harsh statement regarding the evolution of the Indy hat with this hobby.

If we had had, say, the AB at the beginning of this hobby, you probably would have never HEARD of the PB, or the Optima, or the Federation, or et.al.

This was an evolving situation, and any particular hat at any particular time that had proven itself to be the best thing we could get, we were excited about....at that time. What has been ignored has been the fact that most all the hats from the PB onward were created with the cooperation of the hat maker AND the fans. Before that time we were stuck with what ever was tossed our way by Miller, HJ, or Dorfman, among others. Bailey and Stetson did the same thing.

As time passed, things were improved upon and new offerings were presented, and those who were willing to try something different found out that the next step COULD be better than the last development. Some folks really just wanted a good hat, and could care less if it looked like frame 167, Raiders, Cairo scene, take 6. They just wanted something they could depend on lasting longer than the next rain shower it got caught in. THAT'S where WE all started, as we DIDN'T own a hat that COULD do such a thing.

The PB's, Fed's, and Kepplers got us where we are today, and they're STILL great servicable hats....and yes, the PB IS still bulletproof, and made to last for years of use.

This was never about owning the 'flavor of the month'. It has been about the quest to obtain a fedora that most closely depicts what was seen on the screen in the IJ trilogy (at least for most in the hobby). For others, it's just wanting a 'close enough' hat to suit their particular puposes.
It's easy to look back and see things in hind sight, but as it was going on (and still goes on), it was just that continued pursuit of finding the best example we could find at that particular moment.

As to your specs, best suggestion is to talk to an experienced hatmaker and have them give you the 'skinny' on what you require for your body/head/face shape on your next fedora. They're the experts.

Regards! Michaelson

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:12 am

Great discussion. I think we are just lucky to have so many choices now, when compared to the year that I joined Indyfan Forum.

For myself, I spent over 7 grand on hats prior to deciding to make my own, and at that time just for myself. I got tired of spending money without being totally satisfied with the hats. So, the only way to please me was to make my own. But of those hats that I owned prior I still have high regards for several brands. If you are interested in what an Indy hatmaker considers to be good hats and worth the money here they are, in my subjective order of bang for the buck. I will leave me and Marc out of the list.

1)Akubra Federation and Deluxe Federation

2) New revamped HJ(the original brand figures into this)

3) Kepler Raiders fedora

4) Optimo Indy fedora

I may have included JPs hat here too, but since I have never held one in hand, it would be dishonest for me to list it. Fedora

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:24 am

Fedora wrote: I think we are just lucky to have so many choices now, when compared to the year that I joined Indyfan Forum.

Fedora

Yeah, what did we have at that time, Steve, maybe 3 hats to choose from back then?

Regards! Michaelson

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:11 pm

When people ask me what hat to get, I almost always ask them the following: What are you looking for? What's your budget? I think it may be implying a bit much to assume we know what a newbie will be happy or disappointed with. We should do our best to present all the information and opinions in a fair manner, but in the end, it's the buyer's decision, whether he buys an Adventurebilt or a Dorfman Pacific.

very well stated bink and I agree completely.

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:00 pm Post subject:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've just read the entire string, and can only say, 'flavor of the month' is a pretty harsh statement regarding the evolution of the Indy hat with this hobby.

If we had had, say, the AB at the beginning of this hobby, you probably would have never HEARD of the PB, or the Optima, or the Federation, or et.al.

This was an evolving situation, and any particular hat at any particular time that had proven itself to be the best thing we could get, we were excited about....at that time. What has been ignored has been the fact that most all the hats from the PB onward were created with the cooperation of the hat maker AND the fans. Before that time we were stuck with what ever was tossed our way by Miller, HJ, or Dorfman, among others. Bailey and Stetson did the same thing.

As time passed, things were improved upon and new offerings were presented, and those who were willing to try something different found out that the next step COULD be better than the last development. Some folks really just wanted a good hat, and could care less if it looked like frame 167, Raiders, Cairo scene, take 6. They just wanted something they could depend on lasting longer than the next rain shower it got caught in. THAT'S where WE all started, as we DIDN'T own a hat that COULD do such a thing.

The PB's, Fed's, and Kepplers got us where we are today, and they're STILL great servicable hats....and yes, the PB IS still bulletproof, and made to last for years of use.

This was never about owning the 'flavor of the month'. It has been about the quest to obtain a fedora that most closely depicts what was seen on the screen in the IJ trilogy (at least for most in the hobby). For others, it's just wanting a 'close enough' hat to suit their particular puposes.
It's easy to look back and see things in hind sight, but as it was going on (and still goes on), it was just that continued pursuit of finding the best example we could find at that particular moment.

As to your specs, best suggestion is to talk to an experienced hatmaker and have them give you the 'skinny' on what you require for your body/head/face shape on your next fedora. They're the experts.

Regards! Michaelson

Again very well stated. Thanks michaelson.

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:49 pm

Michaelson wrote:
Fedora wrote: I think we are just lucky to have so many choices now, when compared to the year that I joined Indyfan Forum.

Fedora
Yeah, what did we have at that time, Steve, maybe 3 hats to choose from back then?

Regards! Michaelson

Sounds about right to me. I can recall three main offerings when I stumbled into the Indyfan forum back in '98 or so...the Official Dorfman hats, the Stetsons (Ark, Indy and Temple, with the Nostalgia popping up now and again) and the HJ. The Dorfman's were considered the scourge of the Indy hat world even then, the Stetsons all looked almost exactly the same, and the HJ was too expensive. Not exactly a golden age for the Indy fedora fans.

But yeah, DP, Stetson or HJ was the choice fans were faced with in those days. I opted for Stetson, and lived to regret it...

-GCR

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:57 pm

GCR wrote: I opted for Stetson, and lived to regret it...

-GCR

Same here, but what else could we do?

Regards! Michaelson

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:12 pm

Sounds about right to me. I can recall three main offerings when I stumbled into the Indyfan forum back in '98 or so...the Official Dorfman hats, the Stetsons (Ark, Indy and Temple, with the Nostalgia popping up now and again) and the HJ. The Dorfman's were considered the scourge of the Indy hat world even then, the Stetsons all looked almost exactly the same, and the HJ was too expensive. Not exactly a golden age for the Indy fedora fans.

But yeah, DP, Stetson or HJ was the choice fans were faced with in those days. I opted for Stetson, and lived to regret it...

I remember you well from those Indyfan days GCR. I thought you had fallen off the edge of the earth, whereabouts unknown until you popped back here. I can recall when the Nostalgia was real popular. I think I bought a bunch of them. And there was even that Stetson outlet that some guys found these for pennies on the dollar. And then they discontinued them.

I can also recall when it was almost impossible to get an HJ from Mr. Swales. They just seemed to stop coming, and I think it stayed this way until SAB bought em' out. I remember his saying something about not having the felt or something.

But what is so great to me is folks like yourself still being around from that smaller community back then. And there are quite a few of us. Boy, the stuff we have seen!!! You, Michaelson, MK, Whiskey?? , Austin Powers, _, Red Four(whatever happened to that guy?), 3M$, Indiana Ken,Renderking Fisk, Indiana Texas Girl, Rundquist, Indy Coil........ Course there may be others, and I am not even sure Indy Coil is still around. Or Whiskey??.

But when I joined Indyfan, most of the above guys were already there. Michaelson was for sure, I think I joined in 97 or thereabouts. Gosh, that has been 10 years ago!!!!

So that means several here have been putting up with me for 10 years!!!!

Where does the time go? Fedora

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:03 pm

I see Red Four log in every now and again.

Yep, lots of water has gone under the bridge....

Regards! Michaelson

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:33 pm

Regards! Michaelson

Dr.Seuss · Post by **Dr.Seuss** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:21 am

“Flavor of the month,” does ring harsh. Perhaps, “new and improved kid on the block,” better explains the evolution of this species. Choice is a wonderful commodity.

Consensus? If AB was “on the scene” at the beginning of the hobby, would any of the lesser touted vendors currently exist? (Hats off to Steve, whose dedication and craftsmanship earn him a place in the Ark Hall of Fame.)

Given the banquet of hats presently available, price aside, why select any non-AB lid? What are the inherent characteristics and qualities of these more pedestrian offerings? Do they simply exist because of factors such as price vs. customization (Akruba vs. JPD)? Or, perhaps, because offering options such as customization in construction and size, i.e., heavy “western” felt (PB) vs. mid-weight felt (JPD), vs. lightweight felt (Optimo)? Without ready access to this type of information, too often “squirreled away" in a search engine’s archives, selection is difficult.

My request for brim/crown specs vs. personal size was not intended for myself, but for the novice. The knowledge of how something looks upon someone of a similar size (call it a bench mark or ruler) may offer the only secure reference a novice has when judging how their new purchase will look upon themselves. Customization is not always for the first timer, and certainly not for the uninformed faint of heart.

As I compose this, my 1980’s Stetson Royal De Luxe (brown with black ribbon), looks slightly osteoporotic with its five inch open crown and 2 ¾ - 2 5/8 brim. Weighed against the present crop of gear, it is easy to understand why the De Luxe is now relegated to the hat box.

Thanks to all of the venerable hat sages for your considered responses.

Sincerely,

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:51 am

Something else to take into account is that we now have more quality options at ALL ends of the spectrum than we used to. So regardless of your budget, you can get a truly nice hat.