Are Noel Howard (and/or MBA)'s stuff just copies?

Castor Dioscuri · Post by **Castor Dioscuri** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:51 pm

Are the shirts and pants by Noel Howard just copies, as in how FS Expeditions are just copies of Wested's originals?

The reason I ask is because, while IndyGear says that NH was the production manager involved with the movie, IndyGear also says that Andre Domentaki was the one that actually made the shirts from designs by Western Company ("...or something like that...").

So, since the shirt was originally made by Western Company, then copied by Domentaki in a company managed by Noel Howard, does this make Noel Howard's shirts originals?

It would almost be like having Wested's jackets designs copied by John Doe over at Jackets Inc, which is run by Billy Bob. If Billy Bob decides to sell his version of the jacket years later, is this considered original?

Now I don't mean to slight Mr. Howard, or to put anybody off buying his clothes. I'm sure they are the closest we can get to owning the film's clothing, and for this reason alone we should be grateful, but after doing cursory research on Indy's gear, I am a bit puzzled by it all.

Anyway, on a related note, does Noel Howard work off the original patterns, or has he come up with his own?

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:59 pm

The original shirt(s), worn by Harrison Ford in Raiders were made by Andre Domentakawhathisname...if they were copies of another pattern from another supplier doesn't matter. If they were screen-used, then they are the "originals" as far as this hobby is concerned. (Right?

)

So, are Noel Howard's shirts just copies? I would say yes, they are, but then again, everything out there as far as gear goes is just a copy of the stuff they used in the movies. There are no "originals" outside of the stuff they used in the movie itself. Thus getting a copy from an original supplier is the next best thing for most of us. That's the way I look at it with the stuff from NH. I think it is Noel's involvement with the film, and his access to certain information on some of the costume and gear pieces that give his items some of that authenticity that some folks look for. Unless you track down Andre Domentakwhatever and have him make you a shirt (which I think someone actually did, don't remember who, though), the NH is a close as you can get to a shirt from the original (i.e., authentic) supplier, and it's pretty dang screen-accurate to boot.

But if you really think about, just about all the stuff out there as far as gear goes is nothing but a copy. AB's are just copies of the Raider's era HJ, Wested's are copies of the jackets Peter made for the movies (sort of), The G&B is more or less a copy of the screen-used Raiders stunt jacket, all the other pants and shirts out there are merely copies as well.

Think about it like this, The hat (as it appeared in Raiders), the jackets, the shirts, pants, gunbelts, certain holsters...all these types of gear items only existed for use in the movies, until a demand arose from folks like us for good, quality COPIES of the stuff. The only type of things that I wouldn't include in the "Copy" category are things like Aldens, which existed in their current state before the films, and continued to exist for sale to the public after the films, or the MK-VII bag, which was around well before the films as well. Otherwise, everything else is pretty much just a copy, it's who makes that copy that can give an item more authenticity, IMO...so a shirt from Noel would indeed be the most authentic copy you could get these days. Anyways, sorry for the longwinded post...hope this helps!

-GCR

Gater · Post by **Gater** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:37 pm

I'm not so sure it's that cut and dry. The Andre shirt was the prototype, but Angels and Burhmans made all of the clothes used for the filming of the movie, as well as supplied the straps/Mark VII's, gunbelts, holsters, etc...

So although what NH sells nowadays is copies, they are of originals that the company he used to work for actually made.

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:44 pm

It all depends on ones knowledge of Indy Gear's history, a bumpy road it has been. I bite my own tongue now for a reason.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:07 pm

If I can add this before all the bim-bum-bam starts Andre Domentaki worked around the corner from Noel Howard. They practically worked on the shirt together, that's what Noel told me... in my opinion that would make the NH shirt authentic.

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:25 pm

All available gear is per definition "copies" ( IMO "reproductions" or "replicas" has a better ring to it though).
The wardrobe for the movies came from costuming company Bermans & Nathans (renamed Angels & Bermans after the merger with Angels of London), where Noel Howard was supervising. The making of the jackets were sub-contracted to Peter Botwright's company Leather Concessionaires. As for the shirt, I've understood that Noel Howard (Bermans & Nathans) contracted Andre Dometakis to design the shirt details as well. In essence, that's how a costumier company works - you manufacture what you can in-house and order the rest from sub-contractors.

The rest, as we know, is history - Noel Howard leaves B&N and starts MBA Costumes - a company selling reproductions of the screen-used (B&N) clothes. MBA closed down sometime in 2003 IIRC, but Mr. Howard's repros became available again recently.

The beauty of both Noel Howard gear and Wested jackets is that they are made from the very people who were involved in making the movies. There has been - and probably always will be - different viewpoints on this board on accuracy issues in terms of colour, pocket scalloping and such... the fact remains that NH and Wested are as close as one can get.

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:18 pm

I will agree with most of that. However for me it's screen accuracy or in other words original accuracy that matters in the great debate. Just because the person who made it for the film is still producing the item, doesn't make it as accurate as the original. Now, NH and Wested make fine items of great quality that I do own myself. I am a Flightsuits (Expedition) man if that says anything...

however I still own and love my Wested jackets.

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:45 pm

I hear you, Josh. Valid points there. Guess what I mean is that the involvement of the original "top men" brings a sentimental value to the repro garment, something which means a lot to me... My Wested Temple is one of my priced possessions, and the fact that it's collar is slightly LC-ish doesn't bother me really, being an Indy eclectic in terms of gear.

My MBA shirt, while being everything I want it to be, is not the shirt I'd wear to a "real adventure" - it's way too flimsy and "movie costume-y" for any hardships exceeding a gearhead summit...

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:19 pm

I agree with you 100% on that. I know how sentimental I am with my first Wested and all my Wested really. Knowing they are connected with a man who made the costume jackets. The same goes for my Expeditions, knowing they are spot on copies of a screen used jacket makes me feel good. NH stuff is great gear, I kinda like how the shirt is made like the real costume shirt. I do wish he made a version that's more real life. We do have to remember that the originals were all just costume peices at that time nothing more. However, I am ever thankful that this community continues to improve on the replicas we now enjoy.

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:51 pm

Good points, guys.

The way I see it, is that "authenticity" (or the relation of a certain gear items and their creator / distributor to those originals used for the Indy films) and "screen-accuracy" (how close an item comes to replicating the exact look of the original gear items used in the films) don't always go hand in hand. The modern HJ is the perfect example of this. While no one can dispute that the HJ was THE HAT used for Raiders, an "authentic" HJ, up until very recently (Thanks to Marc), was not very screen accurate for the Raiders look. Despite how "screen-inaccurate" the HJ might have been, it didn't change the fact that it is still the only choice out there for true "authenticity". So in the case of NH and his stuff, like I said above, it's as close as you can get in terms of "authentic", and as far as I'm concerned, it's the best in terms of screen-accuracy as well. But that's just my take...

-GCR

Post by **Michaelson** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:09 pm

Well, I have a double 'whammy' when it comes to my wife and my cotton Wested Raiders jackets. Peter made the linings out of left over material from his Pirates of the Caribbean costumes....so those jackets are much appreciated when worn.

Regards! Michaelson

Castor Dioscuri · Post by **Castor Dioscuri** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:18 am

I realized my mistake of using the term 'originals' right after I hit submit, due to reading a post in which another member asked a question about 'original' wested's, and got a similar response.

I guess I should use the term 'Authentic'?

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:13 am

For all I know, I 've owned shirts with label MBA and NH and I can't tell you they are different.

The man isn't accurate with himself. How can you expect the shirt to be accurate after 25+ years? Anyway, the NH was better than the MBA. He must have adjusted a few details. All in all, the NH shirt is the closest one can get to the shirt we see on the screen (deliberately avoided words such as original and authentic).

What the other vendors offer is just a shirt with pockets, epaulets and pleats and has absolutely no relation with the film thing.

It is failry easy for them to reproduce the shirt. All they have to do is buy the NH shirt and copy it. The fact that they don't do it means that they just don't care.

Same situation is with the pants. NH doesn't care to correct a few details of his pants (all he needs to do is to go to blockbusters and get/watch the film one more time) and the others (with some exception) just don't care.
And this is what annoys me the most. It's either that they don't care, or they 're trying to make an ever developing product so that they improve a little every now and then so to create new demand for it. What Intel does with the processors.

What experience tells us is that people do not care to get/have a screen accurate product. NO, they just want to get it from the original maker. Regardless if the original maker is offering a non-accurate thing, they 're gonna get and be happy with it. And they prefer that over the accurate thing made by non-original makers. This applies also for the champions/defenders of screen accuracy.

We have seen examples of that, I don't need to speak further.

It's all in the human nature....

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:52 am

PLATON wrote:For all I know, I 've owned shirts with label MBA and NH and I can't tell you they are different.

The man isn't accurate with himself. How can you expect the shirt to be accurate after 25+ years? Anyway, the NH was better than the MBA. He must have adjusted a few details. All in all, the NH shirt is the closest one can get to the shirt we see on the screen (deliberately avoided words such as original and authentic).

The shirt with NH label is the "new batch" from Noel who decided to adjust some details accordingly with the film-used shirt he has at home.

About the trousers, a bit off topic and I'm sorry but what's wrong with them in your opinion? A part maybe the pocket shape... what details are wrong?

Toldog07 · Post by **Toldog07** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:18 pm

as far as i know, only the pocket flaps. They are screen accurate, just not for raiders. I own a pair and that was the only thing i could find wrong with them. The color is fine and has a good contrast with the shirt.

Screen accuracy has been a big issue around here lately. I must say taht NH's shirt is pretty screen accurate...definetly the closest out of all of them, regardless of what people say about the color. Hopefully wested can come through with this new screen accurate raiders jacket and make it pretty #### close. I know PLATON will be happy

independent · Post by **independent** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:56 pm

Platon's point is a pretty valid one. He's a fan who was so bent on screen accuracy that he offered the most screen accurate pants (specifically the correct back pocket flaps). But apparently not too many people took him up on the offer.

I did! And I will be very sad when he no longer offers the pants. Cavalry twill wool trousers are difficult to find, especially ones that are screen accurate. (I will also miss the fact that he can make em flat front, which makes his services even more rare).

And he is right about how certain vendors are not responsive to requests to make their products more screen accurate. I have tried - no replies.

davyjones007 · Post by **davyjones007** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:42 pm

Words like "replica" and "original" do get tricky when talking about movie gear. I think the only way to get an "original" item would be to take it from the set. Copies are not bad though. Take a 1966 Shelby Cobra. Mint condition it would cost an easy mil. Buy a replica with a better 429/460 block for only about $45,000.00. Same car, same look, same color, just made 30+ years latter and safer. As far a color goes, that will be a tough one with everyone. Different screens, TV, monitors and eyes make all things different to all people. You have to go with what looks right to you. Besides, you ever look at movie props? Once you take away the FX, it's just painted plastic.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:07 am

whatcha mean 'painted plastic'? i made a SW ESB lightsaber hilt from a graflex 3 cell flash gun and blastech kit and by golly that thing turns on and slices through things and.....oh....there goes the buzzer again.....time for my meds.......

davyjones007 · Post by **davyjones007** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:01 am

Uhhh, right! Let's see, now where were we?

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:06 pm

Scandinavia Jones wrote:My MBA shirt, while being everything I want it to be, is not the shirt I'd wear to a "real adventure" - it's way too flimsy and "movie costume-y" for any hardships exceeding a gearhead summit...

I agree, I love my NH as its very screen accurate, but is indeed a costume shirt. If you want a screen accurate shirt for light use, summits, etc, then its great, but its not going to last long with hard use. Of course, on second though, you could get an accurate ToD look pretty fast!