A Challenge: ID This Hat

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:41 pm

Hello everyone, this is my first post here at COW. I’ve been following the discussions here for quite some time and I’ve finally decided to jump in.

I stumbled upon this site the year before last while looking for a nice leather jacket for a trip, but then I began to read posts about the fedora and now, for some inexplicable reason, I’m obsessed with the IJ hat. I’ve poured over the archives for information about the nuances of the Indy fedora, and I love reading posts about block shapes, crease heights, reverse taper, etc. I really enjoy seeing the different interpretations of the Raiders Fedora (and TOD & LC), produced by so many manufacturers, and viewing the debates about their idiosyncrasies.

I know that many of you share this obsession and so, just for something a little different, I thought I’d share some pictures of this hat and challenge anyone to identify the maker or manufacturer. It may be a “common” maker/manufacturer or maybe it’s not.

The last two shots are the closest to the true color.

IndyParise · Post by **IndyParise** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:48 pm

An HJ, maybe?

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:12 pm

magnoli's hj? it looks like steve's work so my guess is that it was on steve's block but it looks quite tall for a reblocked hj. maybe a reblocked akubra with a ribbon changeout?

regardless, thats a beautiful fedora. welcome to cow

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:12 pm

It could be.....nevertheless it has one of the best bashes I have seen in a while. I am still trying to get a bash that it stove pipe all the way around when shaped. If it is Steve's work, I would not mind him reblocking my Adventurebuilt to look like that.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:14 pm

Looks to me like a Peter's Brothers.

Maybe since this is Mac's first post it's a Mac Special?

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:27 pm

It reminds me a little of the Fed Deluxe with a cut brim, but the reverse front and rear taper has me doubting myself.
Chewie

West · Post by **West** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:36 pm

agent5 wrote:Looks to me like a Peter's Brothers.

Maybe since this is Mac's first post it's a Mac Special?

Gotta agree with agent5. First thing I thought when I saw this puppy was that it bared a strong resemblance to the custom Indy I had from PB.

Redbeard · Post by **Redbeard** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:31 pm

Peters Bros. was the first thing come to my mind too..

Captain Ron Solo · Post by **Captain Ron Solo** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:30 pm

I'll go ahead and join the guessing, too. My guess is a Peter Bros. or perhaps an Optimo? Definitely not a Fed, and I don't think it's a HJ, Keppler, or AB. Really nice lid, whatever it is.

JKL
Ron

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:16 pm

The block shape, the way the bow is done, the way it's creased... basicly everything reminds me of how Steve makes his hats. Only the ribbon and the felt look nothing like what Steve use... Kind of reminds me of what a reg. Federation looks like, after they've been reblocked and repounced.

So if I had to guess, I'd say it's a reg. Federation, that was reworked from Steve.

Regards,

Marc

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:57 pm

It's a world-class head scratcher, that's for sure.

My guess?

A Fed Deluxe...either creased very well with a good open-crown blockshape right out of the box, or after a reblock on a pretty decent Raiders block. I'm leaning toward the Fed Deluxe for a few reasons:

The slightly fuzzy felt finish

The way the hat color reacts to different lighting in the pics seems VERY much like my own Fed Deluxe

The Crown height

The center dent depth (not very deep in the frontal pics, I had the same issue with my Fed Deluxe when I first got it. Bashing the center dent too deep caused taper in the sides, so I had to keep the dent shallow until the felt softened up over time)

I'd also say it's possible that the brim has been trimmed down and sanded smoother. The only thing that doesn't fit the Fed Deluxe theory for me would be the ribbon and bow. The ribbon is not the dark, dark brown Fed Deluxe ribbon and the bow is OBVIOUSLY not the peculiar stock Akubra bow. But the ribbon could have easily been changed by someone handy with a needle and thread, and the bow would have thus been changed as well. The similarities to Steve's standard AB bow could be intentional, but I don't think it's his work.

By the way, "Heir Mac", when do we find out the true identity of your fine fedora?

-GCR

Mola Ram · Post by **Mola Ram** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:26 pm

For some reason that looks like a gladdhatter custom

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:38 pm

Thanks for all the compliments guys.

By the way, "Heir Mac", when do we find out the true identity of your fine fedora?

I’m really enjoying all the speculation and the compliments, so I’ll let the guessing go on little longer. In order to add fuel to the fire I’ll tell you that the hat may have been identified already…or not. Hope that doesn’t help.

- Mac

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:58 pm

The color of the hat suggests Fed. deluxe to me, with an HJ ribbon.

Indiana Texas-girl · Post by **Indiana Texas-girl** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:02 pm

I think it's either a PB or a Keppler. The shape looks PBish to me but the color doesn't (at least not on my monitor). The color in the 3rd & 4th pics is reminiscent of a Keppler (or even a Miller) IMO. But with the shape, I'd probably say it's a PB or a JPDesign.

WConly · Post by **WConly** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:06 pm

Strider wrote:The color of the hat suggests Fed. deluxe to me, with an HJ ribbon.

I tend to agree...but boy, it also does look like a PB. I hate making these types of decisions without more info! I do think it is a federation. But, until he reveals the source we won't know. W>

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:10 pm

All I want to know is who blocked that thing because I would have that person block all of my Indy lids.

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:27 am

I am almost positive that whatever hat it turns out to be, that it was blocked by Steve. The 5th picture down looks exactly like the hat that Marc reblocked for The Real Henry, though, so it could be either or.

Indiana Blooze · Post by **Indiana Blooze** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:47 am

It's what I wished my PB looked like.

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:11 am

Could also be a Gary White custom.

McFly · Post by **McFly** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:19 am

I'm gonna go with... Akubra. It must have a new ribbon and a have been reblocked though.

...but DANG is it nice lookin. I wish my Akubra looked like that.

Welcome aboard, Mac!!

In Christ,
Shane

Pitfall Harry · Post by **Pitfall Harry** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:25 am

Yargh......This is a tough one. If that's an Akubra Fed. or Fed. Deluxe then the brim has been trimmed. I don't think it is though.

In certain shots the ribbon kind of reminds me of the JPD hat.

I'm going to guess a reblocked PB.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:30 am

I am almost positive that whatever hat it turns out to be, that it was blocked by Steve. The 5th picture down looks exactly like the hat that Marc reblocked for The Real Henry, though, so it could be either or.

Well, since it wasn't me, I'd say it must be Steve then. Perhaps Mac requested putting a black ribbon on, instead of the HJ ribbon.

Regards,

Marc

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:57 am

Reblocked HJ?

Indiana Max · Post by **Indiana Max** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:43 am

Akubra with a new ribbon, that´s my suspicion, the colour is really Akubra like...

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:05 am

Indiana Max wrote:Akubra with a new ribbon, that´s my suspicion, the colour is really Akubra like...

first thing in my mind AKUBRA !:P

Last Crusader · Post by **Last Crusader** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:35 am

Maybe a JP Design rabbit.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:39 am

My vote is for a wool felt Dorfman Pacific.

indy89 · Post by **indy89** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:41 am

Last Crusader wrote:Maybe a JP Design rabbit.

That's what I'm thinking.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:57 am

Not my ribbon work. Looks like a reworked PB to me and looks like it has been resized going by the ripples on the brim. Also has a very square block shape, but not the Raiders block by any means. Looks stiffer rather than softer, and thicker too. Like the PB. Or a western body converted into an Indy fedora. The shiny ribbon looks like acetate instead of rayon/cotton, or pure rayon. My guess would be a PB felt or something from a western hatter. Fedora

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:41 am

The ribbon sure looks like a JPD ribbon

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 4:25 pm

I’m overwhelmed by all the kind comments. I really appreciate all the responses and all those big COW welcomes (Indiana G, IndyMcFly)!

And, the winner is…

…You know, during my time lurking in the forums, I’ve often thought to myself, “Tone is The Man.” Well, he sure has an eye for lids:

Indiana_Tone wrote:A modified Burlington Coat Factory fed with a polyester (craft store) sheen on the ribbon?

He nailed it. The hat is a $14.99 Burlington Coat Factory Tonak fur felt. I’ve reblocked it on my homemade block and added a polyester (yuck!) craft store ribbon that I dyed a little darker.

Here’s a before picture:

Here’s the block:

The crown looks tall only because the brim is short, barely 2 ¾” x 2 ½”, if that. Also, I think that my close-in camera work tends to exaggerate the dimensions of the hat. The hat is actually only about 5 ¼” open crown, as that was all I could get out of it without losing even more brim. Originally, the hat, a size Medium, had a 3 ¼” brim. I’ve been searching BCF in vain for a brown size Large fur felt Tonak in order to get a 5 ½” open crown and a 2 7/8” x 2 5/8” brim out of a reblock.

The front pinch on the hat comes in at about 4 ½” to 4 ¾” and the sides are 5” bashed. It’s unlined and I didn’t want to put the padded nylon sweat back in because I’d really like to get my hands on a leather sweat for the hat, so at the moment I can’t even wear it. The awful polyester ribbon isn’t tacked to the hat, so I can remove it in order to sew in the sweat (and hopefully toss that shiny POS ribbon and put some proper millinery rayon/cotton on!)

I spent about ten minutes pouncing the hat before I became impatient, put down the sandpaper and started bashing it. Eventually I intend to pounce it a bit finer, it really does make a hat look much nicer.

Marc wrote:The block shape, the way the bow is done, the way it's creased... basicly everything reminds me of how Steve makes his hats.

I consider this comment high praise, especially coming from Marc! I wasn’t trying to copy Steve’s hats, though; I was trying to emulate the Raider’s fedora, it just so happens that Steve’s fedoras look a heck of lot like Ford’s ROTLA HJ. Frankly, much of what I’ve learned about block shapes, and to an extent, the design of my block, comes from Steve’s description of his block. It’s not quite stove pipe, but almost, with a little taper front and back, a minuscule amount of taper on the sides, and a relatively flat dome.

Fedora wrote:Also has a very square block shape, but not the Raiders block by any means.

Actually, my block is a little too flat on top; I intend to add a little more dome before I seal it. I think the transition radius may need to be rounded a bit more, which would tend to make the hat less “square”, I believe. Also, I’d like to get rid of that reverse taper in the front of the hat, but I haven’t quite figured out how yet. More taper front and back on the block, maybe? Or perhaps a larger radius on the front and back transition from vertical to horizontal? The more I learn about the ROTLA block shape, the more questions I have.

Fedora wrote:Looks stiffer rather than softer, and thicker too.

Actually, the felt is very soft and the brim was so floppy that I added a bit of stiffener to hold it in place. The thickness is about 2.1mm, on par with the Akubra (and PB I believe).

Steve definitely knows the Raiders hat, and any comparison of a $14.99 hat I refurbished myself and one of Steve’s ABs makes me quite proud (and now my head’s so big that the hat won’t fit anymore), but Steve is right, my block is not quite there, YET.

Thanks again for all the replies and kind words.

-Mac

McFly · Post by **McFly** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 4:41 pm

O_O Holy cow! Great job! I love it! lol watch the BCF hat sales triple now... lol

Fantastic job, I think. Great!

In Christ,
Shane

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 4:43 pm

Here's one of these

for that awesome job on the BCF hat, Mac!!! Nice work!!! (And welcome to COW, by the way)

And another one of these

for Tone...Tone my friend, you are indeed the man! Nice eyes on that one!

This was an awesome thread, BTW, it's amazing how many guesses there were and how different they all seemed to be. Good stuff...

-GCR

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:01 pm

IndyMcFly wrote:watch the BCF hat sales triple now... lol

Well, the Tonak was on sale for $14.99, I believe it’s usually $17.99.

You can understand why I wanted to keep this thread going for a while; I was laughing my posterior off at many of the comparisons. I was really flattered. Decent felt and a good block will carry you far.

-Mac

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:02 pm

I am blown away by this, blown away. I never thought that possible in all my years. You did an amazing job, simply amazing. Looks like you may have a job as a hat blocker around here!

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:19 pm

Bogie1943 wrote:All I want to know is who blocked that thing because I would have that person block all of my Indy lids.

Bogie1943 wrote:Looks like you may have a job as a hat blocker around here!

I’m still tweaking my block, but when I’m finally happy with it (which probably won’t be for another few weeks, when I get time to work on it), I’d be happy to reblock the hat of anyone who’s brave enough to entrust it to me – no charge. I would love the chance to see different hat brands and various felts. The problem is that I could only block hats in my size 7 1/8 (57).

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:15 pm

mac sir, that is beautiful work. you should be very proud of the way that hat came out. i love that reverse taper on the back. thats a keeper for sure.

cheers!

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:12 pm

Dalexs has also worked some miracles with BCF hats in the past, so this doesn't surprise me, although I must say that you've done a fantastic job here, Mac! Good show.

Captain Ron Solo · Post by **Captain Ron Solo** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:42 pm

Well done, indeed.

After the extreme reblock, does the crown have enough body to hold the bash?

JKL
Ron

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:11 pm

I think the transition radius may need to be rounded a bit more, which would tend to make the hat less “square”

I agree. But you did well. Doing what you are doing, is exactly how I started. The thickness of the felt threw me off! You generally see that sort of thickness in some western hats.

The reverse taper, has its fans, but I ain't one one them. The film hat had none. While in its new state the Raiders fedora was indeed straight up on the back though, when creased down in the back. And the taper on the front and back of the blockshape also gives you that raked back front crease when you look at the hat from the sides. If you took the current HJ block shape and used that same shape with the breaking points at the same place, but just made the sides stove-piped up to where the raidius starts, you have the Raiders block. That is the key difference. But it is a huge difference. Fedora

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:08 am

Man you did a fine job on that BCF, Mac! Wonder what you could make, if you had a decent rawbody to start with.

Hats off,

Marc

Kaplan · Post by **Kaplan** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:23 pm

I've been watching this thread and I must say, I'm IN AWE OF YOU GUYS!!! For one thing, how in the heck did you get that $15 thing looking so good that people were saying Optimo and AB, Mac????
And how in the world did you know that was a Burlington Coat Factory hat Tone???? I mean...all the places that make fedoras....wow.
-GC

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:50 pm

Captain Ron Solo wrote:After the extreme reblock, does the crown have enough body to hold the bash?

The crown holds the bash just fine – with a little help from some steam. No stiffener needed on the crown.

Marc wrote:Man you did a fine job on that BCF, Mac! Wonder what you could make, if you had a decent rawbody to start with.

I’m thinking of ordering a body from hatsupply.com. I need a leather sweat and they have those fairly cheap, but they have a $25 minimum order, so I might as well get a body as well. The body is “pre-stiffened” so I’m sure it’s a thick and stiff western body, and I have no idea of the quality or color (chocolate) for that matter.

Fedora wrote:The reverse taper, has its fans, but I ain't one one them.

I like a bit of reverse taper on the back, but on the front…not so much. I can get rid of the reverse taper in the back by moving the crease in the rear up ¼” or so.

Indiana_Tone wrote:I kinda like that reverse taper look on the front of the one you've got now.
Are you going to remake another block altogether or modify the one you've got there? It'd be kind of a shame to lose the unique style on the one you've got there.

I’m going to modify the block to try and rid myself of the front reverse taper. I don’t like the way it distorts the ribbon. I won’t “lose” the unique block shape though. I can easily replicate it on another block, as essentially the “unique” shape is a stove pipe with a rounded top. The block cost me about $5 in plaster and $2 in sandpaper and this is my third one. I was thinking of posting a tutorial with pictures detailing how to create your own block, if anyone is interested.

-Mac

Post by **Dalexs** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:11 pm

Hey Mac,

Nice job on the BCF. I'm always amazed what can be done with those babys given the right amount of work.

Well worth the $14.99 you pay!

I just wish I could find that color in my local stores.

Dalexs

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:54 pm

After looking at that hat again, it is very reminincent of the PB block used for their Indy fedora. Looks practically identical to the three I bought several years ago when Joe Jr was still making the hats. On that block Mac, I basically started with your same block shape to arrive at mine. You just need to start the radius where the sides morp into the top a little lower. You want dome, but not too much. A high dome will give you a really deep top crease, but also throws off the look of the humps. The act of putting in the top crease must actually pull the top of the sides over in order to get the righ arc as seen from the front. A domey dome won't do this. A top crease can be too shallow, but it can be too deep as well. One day if I ever get time, I want to make a block that is the perfect caricature of the Raider fedora. It will have alot of reverse taper on the back, it will be as square as a wood block, it will have a top crease deep enough to hold a half gallon of water, and it will be 6 inches tall.

There is one thing that really stands out to me regarding the block shape. The hat started out as a regular oval at the sweat and then morphed into a round oval at the top of the crown. You can see this so clearly on the film hat. It jumps out at cha. Of course the traditional way of getting this is for the block to have front and back taper, so that the regular oval is changed into a round oval when it reaches the top. My original block did not have this. It makes for great reverse taper on the back, but it ain't accurate unless you get that morp to the round oval.

That is why I had to get new blocks made, if for no one else except for myself. I still have the older non morphing blocks and will use that for people wanting the Cairo look as the straighter back give some reverse taper and that is what SOC fans want. For the outside the Temple hat, the one in the Temple, the Raven hat and the Well of Souls hat, I will generally use the new block unless otherwise requested. The new block nails those looks better to my eye. All of my own hats will get the new block treatment one day. Fedora

Fedoraman · Post by **Fedoraman** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:24 pm

Fedora wrote:One day if I ever get time, I want to make a block that is the perfect caricature of the Raider fedora. Fedora

Will it look like this:

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:30 pm

nice one fedoraman........that hat looks brown though

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:43 pm

Fedora,

Thanks for the advice on the block, I’ll take your advice on Indy style blocks anytime! I was already aware of most of what you described, and you’ve posted similar descriptions several times before, – it’s just a matter of putting sanding disc to plaster and grinding away. It takes a while, and I tend run out of patience and want to see a hat blocked to check my progress. When I do that, I’m amazed at how much closer I am to my goal, and discouraged by how much work I still have to do.

It’s funny how so many people, people obsessed with the Indy fedora…top men in their field, can look at a strait sided hat and think, “that’s a pretty good ROTLA hat.” Now I’m as guilty as the next guy of that, and when I look at my hat I think, “Hey, it looks good,” (stingy brim aside), but I also tend to see the flaws where the hat falls down when compared with the screen version. Strait sidedness seems to be the defining characteristic that we all look for first and foremost, and the one that carries the most weight.

I really agree with Fedora, who has been saying for some time now, that most people tend to want a caricature of an Indy hat, an idealized version, a version from a particular scene, or even a scene that didn’t appear in the movie. When Fedora modifies his block to get closer to what he believes appears on screen, I think he is really just doing this to please himself, as 99 out of 100 people would be perfectly happy with his original block, and indeed, couldn’t tell the difference unless you pointed it out, and even then they probably wouldn’t care. I honestly think most people would tend to prefer the caricatured version of the hat.

Dalexs, I’m glad you chimed in on this thread. Your old posts on the BCF, and a couple of pictures of you wearing one, are what inspired me to look for a Tonak there (along with 3thoubucks post on the Tonak.)

The big problem with them is availability. It’s hit or miss on finding one in the color, felt, and size you need, and it may be months (or longer!) before BCF restocks. If I’m not mistaken, BCF specializes in selling clearance items that didn’t sell in a timely manner elsewhere. I just wonder where they get these Tonaks – a European retailer maybe? Tonak is a Czech company. They have a website, but they don’t sell online. It would be nice if there were a source other than BCF for these hats, even paying a full retail price they would likely be a bargain for Indy style reblocks.

Fedora posted a picture of a reblocked BCF a while back, but the photo is no longer available, maybe, if he still has it, he wouldn’t mind posting it again. I’d love to see it.

- Mac