Was the jacket the same throughout the whole film? (PICS)

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:10 pm

In the search of the ultimate jacket, I have some evidence supporting the above statement. I am going to present that evedince as soon as it is ready.

I also want to point out that it is a misconception that HF has long arms and that the jacket has long sleeves. (Todd jacket sleeves are too long)

I'm gonna show you screen caps that prove it.

Meantime, it would be worthwhile to hear your voice of opposition if you have any arguments of course. (That way we will ascertain what is the safest conclusion and will contribute to the making of the ultimate screen accurate jacket, by Todd).

Abner1925 · Post by **Abner1925** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:31 pm

Pardon my intrusion, but how can you say the sleeves on Todd's jacket are too long? The sleeve length must reach the end of a person's arm, just past the wrist. If you and I have very different length arms, how can the jacket that fits me correctly be too long, just because my arms are longer than yours?

Sleeves on leather jackets are supposed to be ordered /purchased to come to the first knuckle of the thumb. This allows for future winkling of the leather and a perfect fit. If you are saying that G-Mann doesn't have screen accurate arms, that is one thing. But, the jacket's sleeves are going to be different for everyone and his fits him just fine.

randystokes · Post by **randystokes** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:44 pm

Boy, if we're going to start criticizing the screen accuracy of someone's arms, I'm in trouble.

There's not much about me that IS screen accurate!

Randy

Last Crusader · Post by **Last Crusader** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:57 pm

Platon, are you talking about the Raiders jacket?

It´s definately not the case that Ford wore the same jacket throughout the whole movie.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:00 pm

It´s definately not the case that Ford wore the same jacket throughout the whole movie.

i'm gonna kick back and make some popcorn.....this should be a good fight.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:04 pm

Well, I'm going to tell you all flat out right now, there's NOT going to be enough room under the Plymouth to hide this round, so get your reservations in early.

Regards! Michaelson

randystokes · Post by **randystokes** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:07 pm

Michaelson wrote:Well, I'm going to tell you all flat out right now, there's NOT going to be enough room under the Plymouth to hide this round, so get your reservations in early.

Regards! Michaelson

Reservations for one, please. And keep the coffee comin'.

Randy

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:08 pm

Heck, THAT'S a given no matter WHAT the occasion....

Regards! Michaelson

randystokes · Post by **randystokes** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:10 pm

Oh, and don't forget the special coffee additives!

Randy

G-MANN · Post by **G-MANN** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:14 pm

I think Platon is trying to get the record for the most JACKET threads ever started by one person.

Cheers,
G-MANN

randystokes · Post by **randystokes** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:21 pm

I suppose we should give Platon some credit, though. He's posing a hypothesis and asking for feedback. As long as he's willing to accept and evaluate the feedback he gets, whether it supports or undermines his hypothesis, that's the "scientific method," right?

Randy

Cowboy · Post by **Cowboy** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:22 pm

Michaelson wrote:Well, I'm going to tell you all flat out right now, there's NOT going to be enough room under the Plymouth to hide this round, so get your reservations in early.

Regards! Michaelson

Count me in. I am brining a box of Churchills and some firepower :!: :!: :!:

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:23 pm

Regards! Michaelson

Last Crusader · Post by **Last Crusader** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:23 pm

Look at the edges of the stormflap. One jacket has a rounded one, the other has not. Definately not the same jackets.

Cowboy · Post by **Cowboy** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:25 pm

Shadows.

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:42 pm

I think it might be limited to 2. With all the variation in the jackets in the film due to the fast production, they are probably the 2 that matched the best.

Bjones · Post by **Bjones** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 2:05 pm

You know how when you hear a song on the radio that you really love, but then every station just plays the #### out of it and ruins it for you?

That's what this is doing for my love of this jacket.

I'm just wondering what will happen when the finite number of frames in each movie have all been analyzed and there is still a discrepancy somewhere.......

Heh, that was my rant, now carry on.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 2:15 pm

Bjones wrote:You know how when you hear a song on the radio that you really love, but then every station just plays the #### out of it and ruins it for you?

Thank you, Bjones! I thought I was the ONLY one this was happening to.

Needless to say, my next jacket I'm having made in the future will NOT be an Indy jacket. I'm pretty burned out about the whole thing anymore.

As you say....carry on....if you must.....

Regards! Michaelson

Bjones · Post by **Bjones** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 2:21 pm

Michaelson wrote:
Bjones wrote:You know how when you hear a song on the radio that you really love, but then every station just plays the #### out of it and ruins it for you?
.
Thank you, Bjones! I thought I was the ONLY one this was happening to. Needless to say, my next jacket I'm having made in the future will NOT be an Indy jacket. I'm pretty burned out about the whole thing anymore.

As you say....carry on....

Regards! Michaelson

You are not alone in your burn out sir....and yes, non Indy for the next. maybe the Magnoli Roy Hobbs jacket or Wested Dr Who. Again...carry on.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 2:26 pm

Dang it, Indy, ANOTHER one interested in the 'Hobbs' jacket!!!

Looks like several of us are of the same mind lately.

Regard! Michaelson

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 2:29 pm

Bjones wrote:As you say....carry on....

Regards! Michaelson

....

You are not alone in your burn out sir....and yes, non Indy for the next. maybe the Magnoli Roy Hobbs jacket or Wested Dr Who. Again...carry on.

I'm not so sure you'll want the "Carry On" jacket but I'm sure Peter can oblige!

Post by **Indy Magnoli** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 2:30 pm

Uh oh... the more people interested in the Natural Jacket, the more discussion of detail will arise... the buttons are too big, the rear tabs in the wrong place, the pockets are too narrow... how many different version were worn by Redford during shooting...

Kind regards,
Indy

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 2:31 pm

Not from THIS writer and future customer, there won't be....I double dog GUARANTEE it, old friend!!!!

HIGH regards! Michaelson

doc riviere · Post by **doc riviere** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:32 pm

all this is very funny !!!
why to be so complicated then the right answer is certainly simple... just my 2 cent.

i'm not sure today someone has all the answers ! we have to find someone who got a screen used raiders jacket....

i work for movie industrie here in France, and on each low budget film i work on, the costume designer works always the same way ! 2 or 3 maximum jackets or pants or shirt etc... for the hero and some others for stuntmens ( exactly the same, no change except size )

Cowboy · Post by **Cowboy** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:35 pm

I for one really enjoy my coat. Just the satisfaction of having a 98% acurate jacket that one of my all time heroes wore is more than enough for me. 150% of the folks on the street could give a ^%$# about it being screen acurate, nor do I. If they will accept a Bomber at Planet HW, then what is there to worry about? I wonder if George, Steve or Harry ever look at this forum and think-Dear God, these guys are whacked! Lets stop the Madness now and for Indy 4, go to another style of jacket

Raiders-Energizer · Post by **Raiders-Energizer** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:24 pm

Cowboy

I for one really enjoy my coat. Just the satisfaction of having a 98% accurate jacket that one of my all time heroes wore is more than enough for me. 150% of the folks on the street could give a ^%$# about it being screen accurate, nor do I

I feel exactly the same way, as long as it's of the same style and quality leather. I'll be happy because everyone looking at the jacket wouldn't know the differences. I could understand for the other members wanting to get very close to the screen original look and willing to spend for it .

I'm wondering if their was a poll asking all members here if they care for screen accurate Raiders or a modern Raiders base on individual preferences??

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:36 pm

I'm sure there has, but after a while it all runs together....

Regards! Michaelson

randystokes · Post by **randystokes** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:43 pm

Here's what I want. First, I want to look just like Harrison Ford, probably at the time of Raiders. (My wife would agree.) Then . . . well, every thing else would just fall into place . . .

Randy

Bjones · Post by **Bjones** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:10 pm

Michaelson wrote:Dang it, Indy, ANOTHER one interested in the 'Hobbs' jacket!!!

Looks like several of us are of the same mind lately.

Regard! Michaelson

Well it IS a nice looking jacket, and the funny thing is if I had never seen the movie, I would still like it. Maybe we need another forum

I wonder if George, Steve or Harry ever look at this forum and think-Dear God, these guys are whacked! Lets stop the Madness now and for Indy 4, go to another style of jacket

If they changed to something really different I think this place might implode

Cowboy · Post by **Cowboy** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:19 pm

rbxb · Post by **rbxb** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:27 pm

This is gonna get good

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:25 am

Pardon my intrusion, but how can you say the sleeves on Todd's jacket are too long? The sleeve length must reach the end of a person's arm, just past the wrist. If you and I have very different length arms, how can the jacket that fits me correctly be too long, just because my arms are longer than yours?

Sleeves on leather jackets are supposed to be ordered /purchased to come to the first knuckle of the thumb. This allows for future winkling of the leather and a perfect fit. If you are saying that G-Mann doesn't have screen accurate arms, that is one thing. But, the jacket's sleeves are going to be different for everyone and his fits him just fine.

That's not what I am saying. I am saying that if you buy two jackets size Medium from two different manufacturers, say US Wings and Todd they are supposed to have the same sleeve length. That's because sleeve length is measured against the arm length of the average person.

Now if one jacket has 1 inch longer sleeves, then that's a jacket with longer sleeves. I understand that when Todd created his jacket was under the impression that sleeves had to be longer because that's how they were in the film, or because HF has longer arms or whatever.

The results is that G-MANN's jacket has long sleeves as evident from the photo below

His right sleeve is going half way his thumb!!!
There isn't one scene in the film in which the sleeves look like this on HF.

Now if G-MANN had longer arms (which he has not) and needed a jacket with longer arms to suit him that is another story.

I just meant to compare sleeve length on same size jackets. Since Todd is going to make only S,M,XL jackets and no customization then sleeve length should be right.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:45 am

Look at the edges of the stormflap. One jacket has a rounded one, the other has not. Definately not the same jackets

I knew you would bring this up. It's one piece of strong evidence.
I hope I will find the time this week to post my evidence so we can make comparisons.

I also lean towards the hypothesis that there were two jackets for Ford. Two that looked so very much alike that even Ford may had trouble distinguishing them...

And here have to say this: Peter was appointed to make the jacket for the film. He should normally make identical jackets except only in different sizes for the stuntmen. There is no logical explanation why he would make jackets with different size pockets (like the one we see Terry Leonard wearing).

What do you think?

And one other thing. You may found this thread amusing, but 90% of your posts were irrelevant to the topic. OK, I know this is a place for fun but please do not ridicule the subject. I am spending hours making research to find answers regardingthe screen accurate jacket to share with all of you here, you should at least show a sign of appreciation.

So please, if you have to say something relevant please do so. Your help matters.

DeWayne · Post by **DeWayne** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:52 am

I'm out of the loop for years now. I was just wondering if we know for sure that the pockets on Leonards jacket were functional pockets. Could they have been something sewed on that just looked like pockets?

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:20 am

PLATON wrote:And here have to say this: Peter was appointed to make the jacket for the film. He should normally make identical jackets except only in different sizes for the stuntmen. There is no logical explanation why he would make jackets with different size pockets (like the one we see Terry Leonard wearing).

It sounds crazy but there are always "hero" and "stunt" props and for these sorts of films clothes/costumes. Stunt ones are not mean't to be viewed as closely as the heroes and obviously to be chucked around during filming. They are put together with different criteria... don't need to look as good but might meed to be sturdier. Different construction of the pleats and the pockets may be sewn shut.

This explains some of the differences seen. The very nature of Terry Leonards jacket is that it may have been slightly roomier to accomodate padding that may throw some visual elements out. They might just have bodged smaller pockets on it as it was never going to be seen stood still!

Further to the question of why are some of the Hero jackets different from each other... we have all heard the story of all the jackets being made over a weekend... there was more than one machinist and his/her preference may have resulted in the slight differences in finish on things like pocket flaps and the top of the stormflap.

No real mystery there. Nothing in films is meant to be analysed as closely as we do here.

doc riviere · Post by **doc riviere** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:12 am

KT templar wrote:
Further to the question of why are some of the Hero jackets different from each other... we have all heard the story of all the jackets being made over a weekend... there was more than one machinist and his/her preference may have resulted in the slight differences in finish on things like pocket flaps and the top of the stormflap.

exactly !!

it's also true today, if you order 2 raiders jackets from wested you'll receive them with light differences

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:20 am

DeWayne wrote:I'm out of the loop for years now. I was just wondering if we know for sure that the pockets on Leonards jacket were functional pockets. Could they have been something sewed on that just looked like pockets?

It wouldn't surprise me if that was the case. I don't see an action pleat on his jacket either.

Regards,
Swindiana

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:44 am

I don't see an action pleat on his jacket either.

It's there but not functional at all and sewn open. Most likely to accomodate the padding under the jacket. The side vent is also sewn shut.

Quote:
Look at the edges of the stormflap. One jacket has a rounded one, the other has not. Definately not the same jackets

I knew you would bring this up. It's one piece of strong evidence.

Exactly. If you convince anyone but yourself (and maybe 3Kbucks

) that there was only one hero jacket then I'd be more than surprised.

Abner1925 · Post by **Abner1925** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:57 am

Platon, I still don't think you read my post. Since you only have one Indy style jacket at this point, maybe you just don't know this. The jacket's sleeve length is supposed to be measured to the first knuckle of the thumb. This allows for future shrinkage of the leather, so that the sleeve winds up the correct wearing length after a few months. If you don't do this, you will wind up with a jacket that has sleeves which are too short. This is standard practice, not my opinion, and can be verified by contacting Wested or asking most anyone else around here.

Now that you know this, you can clearly see that G-Mann's jacket is actually the perfect length for him at this point. In a few months of wear, those sleeves will have wrinkled up nicely and a good inch will be lost from it. Also, you can see that he is wearing the jacket at a slight tilt, so one sleeve is not positioned the same as the other. The actual point at which the sleeves land on his arms is somewhere between the point on both of his arms now, because of the tilting to one side. Very tiny difference, but since you are being picky, so will I.

Comparing sleeve lengths on same size jackets is impossible to do since you don't have them in the same photo being worn by the same person. The impression of a longer sleeve on this jacket than by another company will be determined by how long the body of the jacket is. Since this jacket falls where it should on G-Mann for a Raiders look, that should remain constant. you can't have it both ways here. Either the sleeve looks to be proportional with the body of the jacket according to the film, or the bottom of the jacket falls where it should and the sleeves vary according to arm length. To adjust the body of the jacket accordingly would throw off the entire look of a Raider jacket.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:05 am

Exactly. If you convince anyone but yourself (and maybe 3Kbucks ) that there was only one hero jacket then I'd be more than surprised.

I am already aware of the collar difference since your thread about the 'Ultimate Screen Accurate Jacket'. So I know there were more than 1 jackets.

For your clarification, what I am investigating is the fact that although there were 2 or more hero jackets, HF wore mainly ONE of them, so the other one appeared maybe once or twice. This point can be established by examining the differences of the jacket at each particular scene of the movie. This is hard work.

However, after my preliminary examination I can tell you that he wore one jacket for 95% of the time and the other 5% of the time.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:10 am

Comparing sleeve lengths on same size jackets is impossible to do since you don't have them in the same photo being worn by the same person.

Thank you for your comments.
I am not talking about comparing sleeve length based on photographs.
If I phone US Wings and ask what's the length of the sleeve on a Medium jacket and they say 52 cm and then I call Todd and he tells me that on his jacket the sleeve standard lengh is 56 cm then I will know that Todd's jacket has long sleeves.

Regardless of the rise-up effect that you mention, which I don't support, if all jackets by all makers in the world make their medium jackets with 52cm length sleeve (because that the size of the medium human being) and Todd still makes it 56 cm, then I will not buy from Todd.

You see my point?

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:23 am

PLATON wrote: Regardless of the rise-up effect that you mention, which I don't support....

Well, sorry, you lost me right there. This flys in the face of something every tailor will tell you when making a shirt, jacket, or a pair of trousers...they have to factor in ride up when a garment is made, as they have to factor in elbow and knee bend so not to make the sleeve or trouser leg to short when arm or leg are bent while being worn.

If you plan on pursuing this line of investigation by tossing out 'knowns', then I'm afraid your theories are just that....speculations based on an individuals 'theories' using incorrect assumptions.

You might want to re-evaluate this position, PLATON, or you're going to go roaring down the wrong road here....

Regard! Michaelson

Abner1925 · Post by **Abner1925** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:39 am

I'm not trying to get under your skin, I promise. But, you're not getting it man. G-Mann ordered a medium sized jacket and received one. It fits his arm length, so how can you say a medium size human being has arms that are are shorter then his?

I'm not sure how you came about the length of G-Mann's jacket sleeve anyway, but your theory is incorrect. If he wears a medium and this medium fits him, then it's the right length. Maybe you're contacting non leather jacket manufacturers or something, which would give you a different measurement for "their version" of a medium sleeve. But as Michaelson also said, leather sleeve lengths are not supposed to be ordered that way. You have to allow for the shrinkage factor (as with fedoras too).

BTW, since you just admitted above that atleast two hero jackets were used during the movie, should we now consider this road closed?

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:41 am

If you plan on pursuing this line of investigation by tossing out 'knowns', then I'm afraid your theories are just that....speculations based on an individuals 'theories' using incorrect assumptions.

Dear Michaelson, thanks for your comments which I read understood and duly noted.

The fact that I don't support rise-up is my personal opinion and do not try to impose it to anyone. I keep it for myself.

When I buy a jacket and try it on and look at the sleeves, they all have the correct length because it happens that Medium size fits me exactly. I have never tried a medium jacket with long sleeves.

If in the future I come across a jacket with sleeves as in the picture of Todd's jacket worn by G-MANN, and the salesman suggest that 'the sleeves will shorten due to the rise-up effect' I will simply not buy that jacket. My wested jacket fit me exactly when I bought it, and had no long arms. The arms were (and still are) considerably shorter than the photo of G-MANN.

The above is just a clarification to show you my opinion, which I do not ask anyone else to follow.

But all the above is not the point.
My question is this:

If I order a standard (not customised) Wested, size Medium, will it have the same sleeve length as Todds?

That is what I am trying to find out here. Has Todd used a standard sizing table that all tailors use to ascertain the sleeve length, or he was based strictly on what we see on the screen in Raiders under the assumption of a) the rise-up effect, b) that he made the jacket to match what we see on HF arms.

In other words, Todd jackets have standard length as any other jacket in the world, for their corresponding sizes, or are longer?

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:44 am

I will make it simpler for you.

In Wested's website http://www.indyjacket.co.uk/frsizing.html sleeve length for a size 40 jacket is 24.25 inches.

That fits me perfectly.

Is Todd's longer than that? Yes or no?

Abner1925 · Post by **Abner1925** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:47 am

When you ordered your Wested, who came up with the sleeve length for it? Did you specify a length or just ask for a medium length jacket sleeve? I ask that in jest, because I know Peter doesn't work that way. He deals in either coat sizes (38,40,42,44,etc..) or specified sleeve lengths to determine such things. If your jacket's sleeve falls right where you want it to be right now, it will not last. You haven't had it long enough to see this come true yet, but it will.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:51 am

I didn't specify. I ordered size 40 standard. I own the jacket for 1 year and still no rise-up.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:51 am

Understood, PLATON.

Regard! Michaelson

Abner1925 · Post by **Abner1925** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:20 pm

I don't know what to tell you man. G-mann bought a medium and his medium jacket fits him.

If you haven't experienced any sleeve shrinkage yet, you will. Ask Peter how best to measure for sleeve length when using leather. He will tell you what Michaelson did as well.

And, since it was ignored above, I'll repost this - BTW, since you just admitted above that atleast two hero jackets were used during the movie, should we now consider this road closed?

Post by **Dalexs** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:36 pm

And for just to add a bit more fuel to the fire...

I've never bought a particular size anything, and have them match size for size.
I now wear a 42R off the rack. I can buy 5 different jackets, shirts, you name it, and they will all be fit a bit different. Especially in the sleeve length.

Why not just ask Todd what his jackets sleeve length is for the off the rack fit?