After 25 yrs I FINALLY found the correct strap configuration

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:54 pm

After watching the film carefully nearly a thousand times I grabbed the below screen cap

It's clear that the strap configuration introduced by agent5 (and others before him), i.e. to pass the strap twice through the loop, is not right.

I trust you can see that in the pic. Look how thin it is. There is no way it has gone through there two times.

It seams also that the configuration I have proposed with the 'theta' is also wrong. The basic idea is the same, although the correct hardware should not have the center part moving. It should be fixed. Kinda like the bag strap hardware. I trust you can see the upper side of the rectangle.

I am looking for the correct piece and will let you know.

Masterfulks · Post by **Masterfulks** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:38 pm

Maybe it's glued...

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:35 pm

Keep in mind that's a screen grab of only one of the many jackets used in the film. There's no knowing for certain that every strap was looped the same way on each jacket.

St. Dumas · Post by **St. Dumas** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:28 am

Give the guy some credit. You gonna argue with a photo?

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:49 am

I am talking about the buckle shown in the photo below

It looks the same with the one shown here
http://www.stardust-records.com/partner ... buckle.jpg

I think this covers the "buckle" issue for most of us.

It has to be something like the below

It's called a "triglide", although the metal should not be that thick.
I keep looking...

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:52 am

Okay, I just found it

It's either this

or this

Ha ha!!!

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:55 am

Could be this as well

Take your pick. They all come in black and I don't think that's accidental.

Maybe we should vote here. Which of the three do you guys think it is?

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:57 am

The market is full of these babies

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:58 am

They keep coming all the time...

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:14 pm

I agree those shots do not look like the doubled-back configuration with the double rectangle loops. The doubled-back method makes a large lump. Of course, the suggestion that it is glued down (or stitched down) is very plausible.

It does look like a strap slider (or "tri-glide") in flatness. But I can't make out the right side of the slide - I think I can see the left side of the slide. The right side looks like a folded strap.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:27 pm

Also keep in mind that in both shots we have no idea if HF is wearing a stunt jacket or not. We do know the stunt jackets were slightly different in construction for use in the stunts themselves.
I do think it's weird that there is no bulge whatsoever in the top pic in the middle of the slide. Who knows how they may have fixed up the side straps for this fight scene? I imagine they'd want them to stay fixed so they may in fact be glued ro stitched in as mentioned.
Until someone is able to look at these firsthand, we'll just never know.

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:37 pm

I would argue that in the hanging off the truck shot it looks like there is a big lump of strap sticking up in the center. (but it's hard to tell with that straight on shot)

I'm using the "agent5 method" but it doesn't look like it's done that way in those shots, so it's apparently not accurate, so I'm open to other ideas. (I don't remember what shots he posted as reference.)

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:02 pm

I'm using the "agent5 method" but it doesn't look like it's done that way in those shots, so it's apparently not accurate

But alas, it is. Below is my original thread. You can easily see they strap configuration in the pic from the film as well as recreated on my Wested. It seems obvious to me. I wish we could difinitively find who was the very first person to use this method. It wasn't me, but I was the first to find that one frame showing without a doubt how it was done on at least that screen used jacket. I think it was Lee Keppler who first started it. In any case, here's my thread with the pics.

viewtopic.php?t=16278&highlight=strap+c ... 80bca79a8a

In doing my frame x frame research into the side straps I did come across Platons posted pic but now it has me thinking about it again. Another thing to consider is that there is alot of quick movement in that one, quick shot and at so many frames per second, the camera can only capture so much of reality before it becomes distorted due to speed. I'm not saying that's what happened but it could be possible that we are seeing something that's not actually there due to motion. Of course, maybe it's exactly as we see it, but then that leaves the question of what was done here.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:56 pm

The important thing here is that again we have a choice.
The photos I am posting are not 100% clear but they show that maybe the straps were fixed using the 'triglide'.

The triglide makes sense in having the straps facing backwards. And the photos here suggest that the triglide is accurate.

So if people in here like the triglide, they can use it. It's a good solution for the straps.

One day I will put the film through a film editing software and will look at the details very closely. I hope that some new evidence will be found then.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:25 pm

Until I find that evidence, look at these photos and think about it

I am not the best photographer, but you get the idea

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:51 pm

agent5 wrote:
I'm using the "agent5 method" but it doesn't look like it's done that way in those shots, so it's apparently not accurate
But alas, it is. Below is my original thread.

Ah, indeed. I see why I used it now.

Platon, what buckle is that you took pictures of? It looks like one with a movable bar in the middle. (the last 3 are about as in focus as the screen shots

) The center bar disappears when they are blurred.

Don't we have "sworn testimony" or a statement from Peter that he used the buckles he's using now? (either D or rectangular) Of course there's the theory they were changed on the set.

I vote grooves...I mean... never mind....

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:02 pm

I agree those shots do not look like the doubled-back configuration with the double rectangle loops. The doubled-back method makes a large lump. Of course, the suggestion that it is glued down (or stitched down) is very plausible.

It does look like a strap slider (or "tri-glide") in flatness. But I can't make out the right side of the slide - I think I can see the left side of the slide. The right side looks like a folded strap.

Well if you can't see the right side of the slide look below

And here's what I think about that screen cap by agent 5

The strap simply became loose. Se below

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:51 pm

The same thing crossed my mind, however in your new, smaller Indy on the truck shot, I could argue it's the opposite. That it's just like agent5 showed, and that right side is in fact the fold of the strap and not the buckle.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:40 pm

The same thing crossed my mind, however in your new, smaller Indy on the truck shot, I could argue it's the opposite. That it's just like agent5 showed, and that right side is in fact the fold of the strap and not the buckle.

Well, look at the below photo. How much more clear I can make it for you? I don't know.

"Those who have eyes will see". In the meantime, if you still don't, you can have yours as agent5 showed. No loss for me.

After this last comparison pic, I'm 1000% sure it's the triglide....

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:21 pm

It still don't think they disprove what I just said above. (and what about the stunt jacket that was examined by a member way back when?)

It's just like bag strap grooves. Pushed screen shots will convince some, but not every one.

BTW, the buckle you pasted it would be the one I would pick out of those you posted.

Indiana Cromeens · Post by **Indiana Cromeens** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:34 pm

i think we have a proverbial smofing gun here! I for one Patons jacket looks spot on. If it isn't screen accurate, it sure looks the part, and the tri-glide seems like it would hold better. I'd put these on a raiders jacket over the buckles, you get the look and less worry about your straps coming undone.

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:46 pm

<---- See this little guy right here? See what he's doin'? That's me right now, I am totally befuddled...sure, the screen caps are very convincing and Platon's various photos of his own strap configuration look great...but how the heck do you get these "tri-glide" things on your dang jacket?

<--See, there he goes again!

I swapped out the brass D-rings on my Wested and put on some of the nifty black "metal loops" that Dr. J posted about a while back. They weren't welded shut, so installation was a cinch. But all these glider things look like they're shut from the get go, so how would one get it to work without taking out the stitching on the jacket, installing the glider and then re-stitching it?

<---Geesh, I just can't stop him!

So Platon, how did you get them on your jacket? Is there an easier way to do it?

-GCR

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:27 am

But all these glider things look like they're shut from the get go, so how would one get it to work without taking out the stitching on the jacket, installing the glider and then re-stitching it?

You have to unstitch or order your new wested with these on.

Here's how it works

The ones I have installed now are not triglides. They are 'thetas'. They are about the same, but the part in the middle is a moving part. You can get it open and pass it through the loop hole.

But that was before I realized there was the triglide.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:38 am

This photo will help you understand it better

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:01 pm

Thanks for clarifying all of that! I can send this little guy (:-k ) back to the misc. emoticon bin now.

-GCR

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:11 pm

One more for the non-believers

after enhancing the brightness and contrast

and a little magnification just for you

I personally don't see any strap loop like the agent5 method, and I fail to see the two rectangular pieces that Flightsuits and Wested sell to us for all these years.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:54 pm

It's pretty hard to tell from any of those let alone the "enhanced" versions. Lightening it just a bit would be much more helpful. That blown up version is just a washed out bunch of pixels. I can make out the curled end of the strap and the the strap connected to the jacket on that side and the "buckle" but nothing on the bottom side and nothing definite whether it is a buckle or two rectangular ones. Most of them do look like they could be a buckle like you say they are, but the rectangular sliders can look like that as well IMO.

Toldog07 · Post by **Toldog07** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:35 pm

maybe someone could ask peter...since he did actually MAKE the jackets for the film.

Post by **Michaelson** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:01 pm

Peter has stated many times here he used the rectangular rings for Raiders, and D rings on the other 2 movies. I believe the maker of the original jacket myself.

From what I can see on this monitor, I can't make out anything that proves or disproves a thing, other than there is a strap, and there is a buckle. What kind of buckle, there's not enough detail to say, so anything you want to make out it, go for it.

Regards! Michaelson

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:35 pm

Didn't I mention that twice above?

(what Peter said)

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:21 am

-Peter also said that he made the straps facing forward.

-Peter still refuses today to place the straps the other way around on custom jackets so that they face backwards.

-Peter also said that he didn't make jackets for TOD as some French company did. I believe that company was chapal (http://www.chapal.fr/)

It is therefore highly likely that the makers of the film changed the buckle to what I am suggesting.

There are more screen caps showing it and I am gonna fetch them

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:18 am

PLATON wrote:-Peter also said that he didn't make jackets for TOD as some French company did. I believe that company was chapal (http://www.chapal.fr/)

Why do you think the TofD jacket maker was Chapal? If you could PROVE that one, that would be a real coup, as no one has been able to definitively find proof WHO the French maker was.

As to more frame grabs, go fetch 'em. I still haven't seen anything on my monitor that couldn't be explained using other suggested theories (which HAVE been posted here in the past). This reminds me of the fedora discussions and whether or not they used double back tape under the ribbon to keep the hat in place, and frame grab after frame grab was posted. I could see the wrinkle too, but unless someone had one of those hats in hands, we'll never know.

We DO know a stunt jacket used in Raiders HAS been seen, handled and spec'd. That's the one the G&B jacket is based on, and it DID have the rectangular double rings on the straps, so we know of ONE solid concrete piece of evidence that this did occur....but once again, one can always argue that those were applied AFTER the film in order to make the jacket more sellable at the auction the jacket was obtained from.

The first jackets I received from Wested had side straps that were almost a foot and a half long. When you put them through the D rings, the ends stuck forward almost 8+ inches. The only way to get them out of the way was to double them back through the rings. Since then Peter has shortened the straps to where they are now.

A LOT of things have changed in the past 25+ years. I still don't see the type buckle you suggest in your fram grabs, but that's just what I'M not seeing. Maybe you and others can see that in the frame grabs. I'm just not one of them so far. Let's see some more if you can find some better, sharper images.

Regards! Michaelson

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:49 am

IndyDoc wrote:Didn't I mention that twice above? (what Peter said)

Just agreeing with you, Doc.

Regards! Michaelson

St. Dumas · Post by **St. Dumas** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:22 pm

I think it's already pretty clear you're correct, Platon. The rectangular sliders don't look like the strap configuration shown in your January 3, 2007 sccreen cap. Nice work.

SD

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:43 pm

See what I mean?

Regards! Michaelson

Ripper · Post by **Ripper** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:17 pm

I agree....what would Peter know Its not like he created the jacket...oh....wait a minute.....

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:15 pm

Okay, here's a few more caps

Same thing but bigger

Same thing after a few miliseconds and bigger

and another one, CLEARLY black and rectangular

What do you see now?

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:21 pm

PLATON wrote:

What do you see now?

Now THIS screen cap is one that definitely makes me see what you're talking about. No hump, and no fold back....

The only thing, though, it that MIGHT be the one with a slider bar in the center of the large rectangular buckle that hold the strap in place when pressure is put on the buckle in a rearward fashion. Still, in this photo, I do only see a single buckle rather than the pair.

Regards! Michaelson

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:32 pm

Yeah, there is only one buckle.

Here's how it works.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:39 pm

Well, if the straps and buckles are made standard, the buckle is attached to the strap at the front of the jacket, and the loose strap at the back.

In the photo above, you can see the back strap goes through the back of the buckle, then looks like it loops backwards toward the back of the jacket. You buckle requires the strap to go all the way through the buckle rather than through just the one side. If I'm seeing the buckle correctly in the screen cap, the buckle used must have the loose slider bar in the center of the buckle that allows the strap to pass through the one side, then from friction/pressure, the slider bar holds the strap in place.

Did any of the make any sense?

Regards! Michaelson

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:41 pm

PLATON wrote:[

This buckle you showed a few days ago. Are we talking about the same thing here? This is what I'm seeing used in the screen cap above.

Regards! Michaelson

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:01 pm

This what you posted is the closest I could find to what we see on the sceen before I found the below (which I believe is the one)

The one you posted (my previous find) is different; notice the area in the red circles. Indy's buckles don't have that.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:28 pm

I have seen examoples that don't extend beyond the edge of the buckle, as shown in your second example, so I still believe the buckles seen on the jacket in the screen cap is probably one with a sliding center. JMO, though.
Anyone else want to chime in on this? Don't let PLATON and me have ALL the fun!

Regards! Michaelson

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:36 pm

The fact that Peter mentions 'slider' a lot is telling, I think. I have a feeling that this type of buckle is a likely candidate.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:13 pm

Which one, KT? They're both sliders, but one has a moveable center.

Regards! Michaelson

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:31 pm

Yeah the leather strap slides through the thing.

Michaelson, if you notice the first photo of this post you will see that the moveable center is not apparent....

as it is in the photos of my Wested a few posts above

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:45 pm

Well, like I said WAY up there, I can't see that in your examples. It wasn't until the photos of Indy on the front of the truck that I could even see what you were trying to show, so that first photo example is lost on me, I'm afraid.

I just don't see it.

I DO see an decent example of the slider with a moveable center in the last set, though. At least that's what MY eyes are seeing, both on this home PC screen and my flat screen monitor at work.

Sorry, I'm one of those old cruds that just will not accept things like this 'on faith'. Just because I'm being told something's there, if I can't see it, I'm not about to agree just because there's a good verbal argument and others are buying in.

You have shown me in the last set that there is definitely something different than originally thought on a field used, screen used 'hero jacket' side strap buckle. It does not look like a solid center slider buckle to me. You are making a good case, but have yet to convince me this is a not the moveable center slider type buckle....not that it really matters one way or the other if I believe it or not to you, I'm sure.

Regards! Michaelson

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:44 pm

PLATON wrote:Michaelson, if you notice the first photo of this post you will see that the movable center is not apparent....as it is in the photos of my Wested a few posts above

From your Wested photos (the last 3 blurry ones) the center bar is NOT apparent with just a little blurring of the photo and that's not even motion blur, it's just out of focus. There is a good bit of motion in most of these screen shots and could easily blur off those bar ends.

I am more convened of either a center bar slider or the tri-glide now. that pic of Indy on the front of the truck was a money shot to show it is a solid ring and not two of them. As for the last shot of him banging the driver against the dash...it took me a bit to even find the strap, though I can see the buckle somewhat, but it's not nearly as good as the first (or blown up version)

I think KT may have been going with the slider bar version, but I'll let him clarify.

It makes sense to call them sliders.

Michaelson, though it is technically a hero jacket because Ford is waring it, it's also a good possibility it's really meant to be a stunt jacket as he is doing a stunt, and we know he did other stunts in this scene, so he'd probably be waring one that he could tare up. So it could be a stunt jacket in reality. I'm guessing it's also the one with the hole in the sholder? Which would be a "special" one as well.

So using one of those slider buckles (movable center) how are the straps arranged? Is it still like one of these examples?

I'd think one strap would be fastened to something like in the first illustration and not both just threaded through like the second one. You'd get the under strap poking out at times I'd think

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:51 am

I'm talking about the slider bar one. If I was asked to describe it I'd call that a slider buckle

. They could have used something like that. I've seen similar buckles to that in the workshop. Perhaps with a less pronounced loop either side of the bar.

Though, I admit we don't have clear enough pics to really tell. Roll on HD!

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:50 pm

Whatever the configuration, it is clearly FLAT. Here is a collection of 10 screencaps from that shot from the full screen DVD:

actual pixels unenhanced:

enlarged 100%, and enhanced:

Here is a link to a larger version unenhanced:
http://www.toddscostumes.com/images/spe ... elarge.jpg

and the same pic enhanced:
http://www.toddscostumes.com/images/spe ... hanced.jpg

The bottom right cap seems to show all 3 bars of a "tri-glide" type slide, although it could be the top of the strap. Okay, it's puzzling - the front strap is clearly going OVER the front bar of the buckle. IMO the apparent front bar of the buckle in all of the screen caps is the fold of the rear strap over the front strap. Some of the screencaps show a highlight on the rear bar and top bar that show them to be raised, but the front line that looks like a front bar shows no highlight.

Based on the lower right image, it looks as if the front strap is looped around the front bar of the buckle (permanently) and and the rear loose strap is doubled back, passed under the center bar and looped back under the rear bar. That would mean that the straps are reversed. This doesn't make sense to me for a few reasons.

1. Why reverse the straps on Terry Leonard's stunt jacket? (we only know about his jacket specifically) I can see using different buckles for various reasons, but why reverse the straps?

2. Attaching the buckle to the rear panel ensures that the buckle is always at the edge of the rear panel. Attaching the buckle to the front panel means that the position of the buckle will move in relation to the front panel (okay, I guess that's not a big deal)

3. The length of the front strap would be fixed - you could only tighten the side strap until the buckle reached the back panel. If your front strap was 3" long, your minimum side strap length is 3". Perhaps the buckle was aligned with the side seam?

Still, I wonder why? I can picture this scenario: You've got three days (or whatever) to make 8 jackets. You've only got a few sets of tri-glides, and being the weekend, it's too late to get more. Okay, you use the tri-glides for some jackets and the rectangle loops for some. If the buckle is attached to the front strap, and the adjustment strap is attached to the back on your tri-glide jackets, wouldn't it be better to keep that arrangement for your rectangle loop jackets? You can buckle it up without a double loop if you keep the straps as-is. The only explanation I can find is a simple mistake. Perhaps in the hustle and confusion of such an impossibly tight deadline, one of your guys puts the straps on backwards and you don't notice it until it's too late to fix it.