the HJ SAB project

[Indiana G]

last week i purchased an HJ poet from SAB, cut indy. according to what they relayed to me, all of their poets have a uniform brim dimension until you request the 'indy hat' and then they trim the sides for you. they also put that DP-like crown bash in and a soft front pinch exactly as it is on their website.

i know, that alot of you don't believe that this hat is worth the $$$ but i have a soft spot for wearing an HJ with the wested...they're like bacon and eggs, peanut butter and jelly, matching your jersey with your hockey socks.....etc my todd's HJ is too large so i wanted one that fit correctly (todd was out of my size and i wanted one from the HJ "motherland"....plus it was an early christmas and birthday present from myself and my wife).

i talked to a lady in their cambridge factory and i soon confirmed what i've been speculating....THEY HAVE NO CLUE WHAT INDY'S HAT LOOKED LIKE. they couldn't bash it with a center dent so i ordered one open crowned (or untouched as they put it).

with the 3 day delivery option that i chose, it arrived today....with another $80 cad bill for the customs....someone's kid in customs is gonna have a really good x-mas

i eagerly opened the well packed box and to my horror:

- the first thing i noticed was the light brown ribbon, very different than the HJ that todd offers as his ribbon is the correct dark shade.
- the hat was not open crown but had the teardrop bash and the side bashes which i do not care for. the brim snapped down making it look like indy's hat when he was swimming away from the hovitos. out of the box it just looked god awful
- the brim was soooooo floppy i was scared that there was no stiffener added at all. also, it was cut quite poorly as some of the brim near the front was still the dimension of the side width...really sloppy work :evil:
- the hat was snug as it measured 22", not the 22 1/2" that i requested and asked for a confirmed measurement prior to shipping

at first it felt like the money i spent (more than any other hat i have purchased, more than both my beaver and rabbit AB's combined, more than my wested...) was like a flowing stream of sand gushing from my wallet into the wind.

i decided to cowboy up and see if i can save this thing so i got the kettle steaming (i bought a new kettle just for this hat....because i ruined the last one on rebashing my oversized HJ....the wife wasn't impressed at all).

well, in the depths of the steam the stiffener activated and the hat was at my command....in under half an hour i managed to do what i thought was impossible....shape it to compliment my head. it also loosened up in the steam and fits perfect (as long as i keep my hair this short).

how did i bash it? i bashed it to naturally fit my face, my personality, and my style....nothing movie specific...i just picked different aspects of what i liked from each hat in each movie an threw my personal twist in there.

in the end, i was quite happy. it was well worth everything that i put into it.

cheers!









...i think i've finally found out how to focus this dang camera too!!!

[Indy Magnoli]

I understand where you're coming from... I'll always have a soft spot for a genuine HJ. It looks great in any case!

Kind regards,
Magnoli

[BendingOak]

I just don't understand this at all. If the hat is not your size, why not send it back. I also don't understand that if they have sent you something other than what was expected , why keep it?????

[Indiana G]

...because i'm very impatient!

other than the akubra fed, i have yet to be 100% satisfied with any of my hats. i had to send the AB back for a resizing because it was way too large on me....too large to compensate.

actually my sloping 'ape-like' brow helps alot . i can play with hats that are a little too small or too big to sit on my head correctly....which is how i got away with wearing my first oversized HJ.

this one is a little snug but the softness of the hat itself keeps it quite comfortable. the other hat that was mis-sized like this was quite "bulletproof" as mr. sable puts it. it always gave me headaches.

[Strider]

Looks very Temple of Doom-esque. Great bashing job!

[Marc]

Sorry to read this G, as it just proves (yet another time) how little they care to please us.

Perhaps I should offer an "Adventurebilt pimped HJ" for those who really want an screen accurate HJ, as it seems that SAB cannot get it right themselves.

Regards,

Marc

[Indy Magnoli]

Perhaps I should offer an "Adventurebilt pimped HJ" for those who really want an screen accurate HJ, as it seems that SAB cannot get it right themselves.

That sounds like a super idea!

Kind regards,
Indy

[Strider]

Perhaps I should offer an "Adventurebilt pimped HJ" for those who really want an screen accurate HJ, as it seems that SAB cannot get it right themselves.

I suggested this same thing earlier this year.

viewtopic.php?t=15893



Question is, how would you get 'er reblocked, since the general feeling is that modern day HJs are not something you want to try and reblock due to the sewing of the sweat that results in a perforated brim break?

[Marc]

I suggested this same thing earlier this year.

Right! And I HAD looked into it back then already. But that was when my contact at HJ (who left in the meanwhile - which I just found out) told me that they would fix it themselves. It is now clear that they DIDN'T fix it. So this time I'll be more penetrant

Question is, how would you get 'er reblocked, since the general feeling is that modern day HJs are not something you want to try and reblock due to the sewing of the sweat that results in a perforated brim break?

I wouldn't want to reblock them, I'd want to built them from scratch using their materials (if they allow). I got the name of the guy responsible for the Indy Fedoras five minutes ago and will call him up later.

Regards,

Marc

[Erri]

Indiana G, you put a very good style in the hat that looks good on you!

I suggested this same thing earlier this year.

Right! And I HAD looked into it back then already. But that was when my contact at HJ (who left in the meanwhile - which I just found out) told me that they would fix it themselves. It is now clear that they DIDN'T fix it. So this time I'll be more penetrant

Question is, how would you get 'er reblocked, since the general feeling is that modern day HJs are not something you want to try and reblock due to the sewing of the sweat that results in a perforated brim break?

I wouldn't want to reblock them, I'd want to built them from scratch using their materials (if they allow). I got the name of the guy responsible for the Indy Fedoras five minutes ago and will call him up later.

Regards,

Marc

I bet Marc is the obsession of the Herbert-Johnson company
I can imagine a HJ employee saying "ow Charles, that unmannered gentleman from Germany called again! He's still pestering about that bloody hat"

The project is good Marc, very good. How much will it cost us approximately? Since the materials are surely of an inferior quality compared to your super-top-notch felt I suppose it will be less than 300 euro, right

[Marc]

I can imagine a HJ employee saying "ow Charles, that unmannered gentleman from Germany called again! He's still pestering about that bloody hat"

Just spent 15 min. with one of them on the phone and plain told him, that I need to make their hats, if they want to sell them to the hardcore fans. He aggreed and gave me yet another phone number to call to

The project is good Marc, very good. How much will it cost us approximately? Since the materials are surely of an inferior quality compared to your super-top-notch felt I suppose it will be less than 300 euro, right

I have absolutely NO idea Erri. If this works out, I'll let you know. Be sure that the profit margin on my side will be as low as always.

Regards,

Marc

[mark seven]

An adventurebilt/HJ collaraboration?..how cool is that! ,fingers crossed for you on this one Marc!

[geo]

Congratulations, the hat looks great.

[Fedoraman]

i had to send the AB back for a resizing because it was way too large on me....too large to compensate.

I also had this problem with 3 hats from Steve - I just couldn't bring myself to send them back as they look too perfect. I think his blocks run bigger than what a true size would be as they are custom blocks, which isn't a bad thing neccesarily as you CAN compensate for big and the sweat will sinch up after it gets wet and conforms to your head. But you can't do much with one that is too small...

[Marc]

We've gotton better regarding sizing a sweatband, as we've changed the way to size them. Steve shared that technique with me early this year and I've been using it ever since.

You can be sure that the hats as we make them today come EXACTLY as requested, plus 1/8" for further shrinkage of the leather.

Regards,

Marc

[Michaelson]

Steve shared that technique with me early this year and I've been using it ever since.

Regards,

Marc

Was it the technique he told me about a while back that involved a slinky, a 32 oz. can of pork and beans, a can of yellow spray paint, and the sacrifice of a brown chicken?

Then again, I get his stories confused sometimes. Maybe he was talking about last Fourth of July's barbecue.....

Regards! Michaelson

[Marc]

Well, you know that I'm a close to the vest guy when it comes to these techniques Steve and I use, but now that you spilled the beans...

Regards,

Marc

[Michaelson]

Rats. Sorry about that.

Regards! Michaelson

[Fedora]

I am confused here Indiana G. Was the hat really soft, but once you steamed it, the stiffener was activated, and it became stiffer? IF that is the case, I have some info for ya. If true, that HJ was never properly blocked, and this may explain WHY the HJs taper rather quickly once they get wet and dry. They are dry blocked(Marc said this was a fact last year from talking to HJ about how they make their hats). When I receive my hat bodies, they are all soft and floppy. But, once you properly block the hat, the stiffener is activated. If what I get from your post is the case, someone needs to go and show those guys how to properly block a felt hat.

I had originally made a post back when I first started making hats that I was thinking about buying open crowned HJs and reblocking them with the right block. I got little postive response, instead, someone posted, why would I want to do that??? Heck, I called HJ and found out I could buy the hat wholesale for a hundred bucks at that time. I could have pulled it over a block and sold it for 150, which is about what that hat is actually worth.


The HJ name is magical, but realize that you are not getting an authenic HJ.(and this is the reason I will only buy vintage HJs, or at least those made when Swales was still there) You are getting a SAB hat, that bought the HJ name. They own the name. It is like comparing the original Stetson, made in Philly, to the ones made by Hatco today. It has as much in common with the Swales HJ as Stetson does with the real Stetsons. My point, is these hats are not REAL HJs. They are knockoffs. Fedora

[Fedora]

I also had this problem with 3 hats from Steve

I had to go with head measurements to get the sizing right. You can buy 3 different brands of hats and get 3 different measuments for a 7 1/4. Some hat charts list a 7 1/4 as 22 5/8, another will say 22 3/4, and another one will say 23 inches. There is no standard in sizing, and I always figured the mad hatter disease caused this. You see the exact same thing in hat blocks, I have blocks stamped with 7 1/4 that are actually sized to 7 3/8 circumference. This is very common. I had to go and measure each one of my numerous vintage blocks and then remark the bottoms so I knew what I was using!! Fedora

[geo]

You are getting a SAB hat, that bought the HJ name. They own the name.

My point, is these hats are not REAL HJs. They are knockoffs. Fedora

Swaine Adeney bought HJ (the company), not only the name, the same way as they bought Brigg earlier. That doesn't mean that the HJs are not real, nor does it mean that Brigg business cases are knock-offs.

[Fedora]

Swaine Adeney bought HJ (the company), not only the name, the same way as they bought Brigg earlier. That doesn't mean that the HJs are not real, nor does it mean that Brigg business cases are knock-offs.

SAB is doing the same thing Hatco is doing to the Stetson name. That is common knowledge with hatters. But, I am open minded, so convince me. Show me the commonality of the current HJ to the Swales Raiders fedora, other than the name. There is none. Even the traditional HJ crest has been sent to file 13. Different felt, different sweat, different liner, different block shape, a factory dimensional cut, instead of the Swales cut. The proof is in the pudding. You are paying those hundreds of dollars so you can look in the liner and see the HJ name. The current SAB company is doing what the folks did that bought the Stetson name. It is more than semantics here. If SAB no longer has the Raiders block, they no longer make the Raiders fedora. At least when Swales was there, they actually had a hatter in the mix. Nowdays, HJ is run by guys with degrees in marketing, with NO knowledge of hats. Knockoffs, and not accurate ones at that. Fedora

[geo]

HJ is more than the Indy hat, and the Indy hat is more than the Raiders hat. The LC hat is also an Indy hat, and you can get perfectly accurate LC hats from HJ today, and not-bad Raiders hats. Even though the hat has changed since Raiders (25 years ago), today's HJ Indy hats still scream Indy when you see them, even when not looking at the liner. "Knockoffs" and "not real" mean forgeries, and that's not true. And of course HJ is run by people with degrees in marketing, it always has been, they're the ones who know how to run a company.

[Abner1925]

I guess people without marketing degrees have no idea how to run companies?

(Just messing with you)

[Indiana G]

easy now boys....i didn't want to start a debate here. fedora has a point, these are not the hats they were 10 years ago....the only thing left is the name. now due to the quirkiness of human nature, we will go to far lengths just for that; regardless of inferior quality to hats that cost much less. the hats that bear the HJ brand today are remnants of what once was a good quality hat company with pride in their craftsmenship....and to some people (like me), that is enough to make the sale....just to have in the collection. i'm not saying this is the best hat that i have, but its currently my favourate...then again, i'm still waiting to get my AB beaver back from resizing and the new AB rabbit

marc, if you manage to swing something with HJ and make the hats, i'm gonna have to get one of these in secrecy from my wife as i told her that this one was the "last" hat......but i don't think i can resist if either you or fedora struck a deal with HJ to show them how to make hats.

steve, i wouldn't be surprised at all if these hats were dry blocked. todd told me that the cambridge factory puts more stiffener in their hats so i was expecting something quite solid. when it arrived, it was more delicate than the todd HJ that i had....softer than any other hat i had received. when i put her through the steam, she stiffened up quite well and i have to say it is now stiffer than the todd's costumes HJ. that is an interesting notion though.....if people are buying the SAB hats and wearing them out of the box (without steam bashing), i can easily see how it can turn into a witches hat in no time.

[Fedora]

"Knockoffs" and "not real" mean forgeries, and that's not true.

I squarely put the current HJs in this category. I also put the current Stetsons in this same category. Technically, they are of course not knockoffs. No more than a modern Stetson is a knockoff. I just put them there because the only thing they have in common with the Raiders fedora is a name on the sweat and liner. When any company whether it is the folks who bought Stetson, or the one that bought HJ takes over, it is no longer Stetson, and it is no longer HJ, from a particular point of view. It is someone else using those names. For a price. As far as I am concerned, when Swales left the company, the guy who handcut the brims, the real HJ Poet Raiders fedora died. The others are knockoffs.

Take the folks who made the Raiders jacket. Peter was involved with the other company and now has Wested. If he sold it to a corporation, and he retired, and the new owers had their own folks ready to take over. And they changed the labels on their Indy jackets, changed leather suppliers, and no longer had Peter involved. Would this new product be as authenic as what Peter was making? Or would it be a knockoff? Say in the changeover they lost the patterns Peter had for the Indy jacket. They halfa$$ed copied one they still have in stock. How authenic? Another knockoff. But, the company's name is still..........Wested. This is what I am referring to. Fedora

[geo]

the only thing they have in common with the Raiders fedora is a name on the sweat and liner

Like I said, HJ quit making Raiders hats long time ago, even when Swales was there, and they now make a hat which is closer to the LC hat, which is also an Indy hat, so HJ still makes a genuine Indy hat of superior quality, far from being junk or a knock-off.

[VP]

HJ still makes a genuine Indy hat of superior quality

Superior to what, the DPs? That ain't much.

[Bufflehead Jones]

I speak as someone that owns a modern HJ. Plain and simple, it's quality is not commensurate with it's price. The only reason that I own one is just so I can say that I have a hat with the brand name that was used in the Indiana Jones movies. I rarely wear it, as I don't feel it would have much longevity with heavy useage. It is not made of the same components as it was in the early 1980s.

I feel that it is fine for a company to be taken over by new ownership, as long as the company still produces the same high quality product. There are many reasons why someone would want to sell their business, even ones that have been family owned for many years. Sometimes ownership of a company changes hands and many consumers are unaware of the change.

I think we would all agree that it is sad when new ownership takes over a once proud company that is an industry leader, and the new ownership makes changes that are detrimental to that companies products or services. This is the case in the two examples that Fedora mentioned, specifically, Stetson and Herbert Johnson. Unfortunately for fedora wearers, these two legendary names in hats, are not what they once were.

[Fedora]

so HJ still makes a genuine Indy hat of superior quality,

A joke-right? Look, like it or not the HJ is a medium quality hat. Certainly not superior. Now, they made high quality hats at one time. I own a few. But to call the current HJs high quality shows you know nothing about hats-period. But, you are in the right place to learn. Or any other reputable forum that discusses hats. Don't trust me Geo, heck ask anyone who has been around the block. But don't pee on my leg and tell me it is raining. Fedora

[Scandinavia Jones]

What he said. Sadly, the Herbies of today are mediocre pieces of... headgear. I used to own one late 90's "Swales" HJ, which was made of a better felt, IIRC, but was still pretty far from a superb hat (Steve, you remember that one?). My current Herb from Todd is what it is - A Herbert Johnson hat, bought for the same reason as Buff stated above.

[Indiana G]

whats superior is the price!....gonna be feeling that for a while....

anyways, i stumbled on something that made me a liar. remember when i said i didn't bash the shape to any of the movie hats......



i'm gonna claim that this is my bash shape and that they copied this when TOD was made. i'm gonna need you guys to back me up on this...then mr. lucas will hear from my lawyer!......michaelson, any room in the trunk of the plymouth??? i need something that locks!

[Strider]

Personally, I think your hat looks more like the bridge hat...

[Indiana G]

ha ha strider, you're wrong!!!....but thank you because that is quite a nice compliment (i like the look of that hat)

i'm calling this my TOD water-tunnel-left-alden-on-fire hat because you all know what a stickler i am for screen accuracey [add sarcastic tone here]

[Fedora]

I used to own one late 90's "Swales" HJ, which was made of a better felt, IIRC, but was still pretty far from a superb hat (Steve, you remember that one?).

Yes I do. Of the scores of HJs I have reblocked, I used to make notes on each hat. This was early in the seach of the best Indy fedora. The felt used in the early to late 1990s, was the LC felt. It was quite a bit more substantial in the area that pertains to reblocks. It would not generally tear at the perforated stitch lines at the brim. What I have seen of the current felt is some of the weakest felt I have run across. Now, I am speaking not as a hatter here, but also as a fan. And I would tell you this if I was JUST a fan. For those that know me, from the old days, can attest that I don't mince words when it comes to hats. I got into trouble more than once trashing hats verbally here, that I had spent big money for. But, if a gear forum is not for this sort of review, then it does not help folks who are about to put out hard earned money. The few complaints about my own line I have taken to heart, and have worked to address those issues. In my appraisel of other hats, I will always remain honest, and try to use tact, although I slip occassionally. And if I am wrong, by George, I have no qualms about admitting it, and eating my hat. I have done that to. Look guys, I am as serious as a heart attach about my love-the Raiders fedora, and then the craftmanship and quality aspect of ANY hat.

Now with all of that said. I can also tell you that if you take a new HJ, the soft ones and tear it down, pull it over a block and then remake the hat, what you get is much more superiour to what you received. There are things that small custom hatters do to the hat that helps stabilize the felt, while making the felt stronger. No, I will not tell as I promised Marc.

Part of the new HJs shortcoming are the shortcuts that I honestly believe thay are taking in the manufacture of these hats. I reblocked my own new HJ and the difference in stability is verifiable. You lose a little of the crown height in the process because the hat is still in the state of shrinking, and was never stablized at the factory. Plus, my blocks are fuller at the top and this fills up the crown and you lose some height. I could still get the Raiders height out of my own though.


The factory HJs also come with a factory dimensional cut. It is a true dimensional cut, as used on the Stetson Temple. The Raiders HJ and perhaps some of the others were hand cut by Mr. Swales. A hand cut hat is different in dimensions as it goes around the hat than a perfect factory cut. I have a template taken from our Admin's late 80's early 90's HJ that he bought from Lee Keppler. It was THE Raiders block, and dimensional cut. I cut my cuts using this template from an original Swales cut. The Swales cut was not like the factory cut. This same hat also showed me early on that the LC block and Raiders block were not the same. Since that time, several vintage HJs have proven this several times. My vintage hats have two block shapes. One is the LC, and the other is the Raiders. Completely different blocks were used. Regards, Fedora

[Michaelson]

michaelson, any room in the trunk of the plymouth??? i need something that locks!

Unfortunately, no lock on the trunk, so you're on your own I'm afraid.

Regards! Michaelson

[BendingOak]

Steve, I have to disagree with you on this one. I don't think you can call the current HJ a knock off. This would imply that they are trying to make a half way decent Indy Fedora. I see no effort on thier part.
You are so right with the fact that the only thing the current HJ has with the Raiders hat is the name on it.
It does make a good TOD or LC hat but the quality isn't worth half of what you pay. It's just not worth it. If I had to do over again, I would have sent my HJ back to them. I made the misstake thinking you could wear the current HJ as a hat

[GCR]

Steve, I have to disagree with you on this one. I don't think you can call the current HJ a knock off. This would imply that they are trying to make a half way decent Indy Fedora. I see no effort on thier part.

I agree. The folks at HJ/SAB took the time to correspond with Indiana G regarding his issues with the hat size and specs but then sent him something that does not come close to what he ordered (such as the wrong ribbon, the hat's size being a bit tight after all his concerns over size, the oddly uneven dimensional cut and the lack of an open crown). Not exactly an "A" for effort...For the kind of money you pay for these HJs, and the kind of service you get (nevermind quality of the product and materials used, etc.) they outta ship the hat to you in a solid gold box...

Still, Indiana G, the hat looks great! I think it matches up very nicely with that pic from ToD! Tell me, aside from color, does the ribbon differ much from that of your HJ from Todd's, specifically the bow? I was interested to see if the bow looks anything like the picture they have on the SAB site now.

-GCR

[Indiana G]

hey GCR,

the bow is shorter and less pinched in the middle on todd's bow. the SAB bow is pretty much exactly as what is on their website....but even their website has the right colour!

i just steamed out the raider swoops on each side so that it looks pretty close to the "bridge hat".......dangit strider! your post drove me to it! thanks for the inspiration buddy!

[Marc]

From what I understand, the way they make hats nowadays is something that Steve and I would call "bootblacking" It's not hatmaking as we think it should be. Not even short of it. That is a fate that many hat factories share today. At HatCo. it takes two months to make a trainee a - what they call - hatter! Two months folks Now, why do you think that people like Steve, me and Art (just to name some) took several YEARS to get to the point, where we considered ourselves real hatters? - Because we think so low of ourselves? - Our due to our own stupidity?

Fact is, that the current HJ's are disposable hats (copyright by Steve Delk). And for that, I think the price is too high.

Regards,

Marc

[rcinlv]

heck ask anyone who has been around the block. Fedora

Pun intended!!!

RC

[Marc]

Latest news folks: I talked to someone at the factory in Cambridge who's been working together with the infamous Mr. Richard Swales for many year and who HONESTLY assured me, that the Poet was to this date the exact same hat, as it's always been I assured from my side that CERTAINLY not so, as the felt was WAY off compared to my vintage HJ (FROM that time - 25+ years ago), so was the sweatband, the liner, the ribbon and the craftmanship, so don't go tell me I don't know the difference. Even though I tried to stay as polite as possible regarding their current quality, the person became quite upset and told me that the hat I was talking about (the way that Steve and I make them) would cost several thousand pounds Steve we need to price 'em up!!! The way we're giving the away, just doesn't make people realize how valuable they actually are!

So, off to writing some e-mails and try to talk them into gettin the untouched rawmaterials from them.

Regards,

Marc

[Marc]

At least you can't say, that I'm not updating you on this

I was promised to hear back from them after Christmas by now. I have kindly asked for permitance to make a Herbert Johnson Poet, using their very rawbodies, sweatbands and liner. So, it WOULD be an entirely hand made HJ IF they chose to coorporate. One with preaged felt, made to measure etc. etc. etc. Time will tell if they are willing to do so or not.

I'll let you know as soon as I hear something new.

Regards,

Marc