Stick a fork in me

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 3:30 am

I'm done looking for a Raiders hat. I should have been done 3 weeks ago when I posted this

But, I took this pic minutes after I ripped out a hole at the top of the front pinch. ... I bought 2 more , and the first one has the same mods, and is as close to being The Raiders Hat as I think can get, outside of finding a, heated expanding block formed, pork-pie that HJ carried in 1980. . . ... These are size 57 Regular Federations, or, size 7 1/8 at 22 1/2 inches. My head is 22 1/8+ so they're about a size big. Crown heights are 5 3/4 inches. ....... Here are the MODS.... The hat is sanded thinner, A pleat in the crown, Two inch turn, A tightened ribbon, 1/3 inch of the front of the crown ironed into brim. ...... ............................................................ ................................ ............ This hat is as soft as any vintage Poet, after sanding. I saved the fuzz. I sanded the inside of the crown and the bottom of the brim. I didn't sand the thick, stiff, first inch and a quarter of the crown, even on the inside, as it is KEY to the Raiders look. It's what I took to be stuffing or a folded sweat previously. ..

......... I pleated the crown at the exact front of the unturned hat. Such a pleat completely dissapears when it is part of the front pinch, with a ribbon over it. When the hat is turned 2 inches, the pleat, intended to inconspicuously tighten the hat's fit, ends up in the middle of the front bash, and sticks out like a sore thumb. .... I came up with the two inch turn due to the unusually square back of the Raiders front dent on the bow side. The dental floss indicates the back of the stretch marks on a Fed. The Fed on the right is turned 2 inches. This explains the sqareness in the back of the bash.

... So, a two inch turn explains the position of the pleat, and the shape of the rear of the bow side bash. (Two inches is before the pleat is put in, after the pleat, it's a bit less.) ........... ....This Fed comes with a 2 7/8 brim in front. After ironing the front of the crown into brim, it's almost 3 1/4. (this could easily explain the "dimensional cut") This lowers the front pinch height to less thean 4 1/2 inches, while the top bash remains at least Raiders deep.

....... I'll need to buy gif software this time, or post a video to You tube to show the hat properly in a movie. But first I have to shorten the brim, and let the hat spend some time as a pork-pie. For anyone who doesn't believe in the pork-pie, obvious in the daylight in Cairo, here's one from Elstree.

Here's the same line entering the front bash, also at Elstree.

And for any who don't believe in the Fed "stretch marks" or whatever they are, I've taken pictures of them in all six of my Feds when new and unbashed, inside and out, left and right, and will make a web page with all pics, if needed.

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:21 pm

Wow. I don't know what to say...I never thought this day would come.

Congratulations on ending your quest. Sounds like you have found very plausible answers to most of the great Raiders hat mysteries, though I, personally, might not be able to accept all of your theories just yet. However, even if the Raiders hat wasn't ever a porkpie, at least those diehard fedora fans looking to recreate every little detail in their own hats, will be able to replicate that "mystery line" with the porkpie method. One question: did the color of the regular Federation change at all with the hefty amount of sanding you did? In the pics you posted, the Feds look lighter than any other Feds I've ever seen pics of.

Excellent work, for sure. I hoping all of this gets cataloged over at raidershat.com!

Now, how about some pics of the finished product? I'm sure I'm not the only one who is dying to see this thing!

-GCR

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:47 pm

So will you be starting a Fed modification service now you are finished with your quest? What ribbon are you using BTW?

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 5:38 pm

No Fed mod service. It takes about 20 hours to sand the hat with the coarsest sandpaper. The ribbon is the stock ribbon, which is excellent. I just rearrange the bow Raiders style. No color change with sanding. I have another new 57, so I might give one the bleach treatment. ...I jumped the gun here, not having more pics, but I had two new theories- the pleat once being part of the front pinch and, the back of the stretch lines indexing the back of the bowside bash- I've kept them to myself for a month, and wanted to get them out there before someone else did.....I proposed the pleat was once part of a front pinch a few years ago, but not in the perfect front of the unturned hat. ...My avatar was done with a trial software which has expired. I don't know how to put a video on Youtube, but I'll have something before long.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:44 am

Here's a taste. I'm wearing it normally. The brim needs some ironing. I took a front shot, but seriously, it needs the pork pie, before it looks right.

I didn't take the sweat out to iron the crown into brim, I just reinforced the stitching at the outside points where the ironing seems to be, cut the old stitches in between, then tacked the loose 4 3/4 inches of the sweat back in at about 5 spots. I also had to fold a little zig-zag in the sweat to make it fit back in, which meant folding the wire reed. That fold is just to the left of the crown pleat.

moses · Post by **moses** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 4:11 am

It'll be interesting to see how the hat holds up to daily wear - the Akubras are regarded as being fairly tough, but I wonder if yll that sanding will affect how and when the hat starts to taper. Or will you just keep it as a costume replica?

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 4:41 am

Costume replica.

CairoIndy · Post by **CairoIndy** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:24 am

I'm curious 3thoubucks,now you've achieved your goal of the perfect Raiders hat(though I can't help thinking you would have had an easier time just ordering an AB? )what are you going to do next?(learn Klingon?

). I have to say I admire your single-minded pursuit, but I also think your're a bit barmy(but aren't we all?)trying to achieve the perfect Indy look.I hope you don't retire now and ride off into the sunset because your mad theories give me a lot of pleasure!

Magnum Jones · Post by **Magnum Jones** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:54 am

If it's perfection you are seeking.............keep looking you won't find it....................If you want excellence I think you are there.

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:32 am

I am both excited and a little saddened that you have found what you deem to be perfection, 3K$. I'm happy for you, but at the same time, I can't help but feel like you feel as though you are settling rather than achieving the ultimate perfection you were looking for.

However, kudos be to you. As far as research on the Raiders hat goes, few can hold a candle to the work you've done. Not to mention the fact that you have penned the penultimate as far as documented research with raidershat.com.

So...thank you. Thank you for doing all of this and sharing it with us, because I know that the project was mainly just for you, but watching your research over the time I have been here has been nothing short of fascinating. I think the last thing to do is chronicle the steps you've taken on raidershat.com so that users like us can go there and replicate your process (ala the "Pagey" bash for ABs).

So ... after all this work, you aren't even going to wear a (the) hat?

moses · Post by **moses** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:13 am

Strider, why penulitimate? And is the Pagey bash just for ABs?

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:06 pm

Do we get to see more pics of this hat ( front view, back view , etc)?

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:37 pm

BendingOak wrote:Do we get to see more pics of this hat ( front view, back view , etc)?

I may be wrong, but I think 3thoubucks is letting the hat "incubate" as a porkpie before he puts in the final bashes. from previous posts I believe he lets the hat stay in a porkpie shape for at least a day or two, so I wouldn't expect pics right away.

-GCR

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:52 pm

Okay. Hold still.

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:53 pm

moses wrote:Strider, why penulitimate?

Have you been to Http://www.raidershat.com ? Show me something documented that even comes close. I know our friends Steve and Marc have done an amazing amount of research as well, along with others, so I am not excluding them. I'm simply saying the penultimate as far as DOCUMENTED research.

moses wrote:And is the Pagey bash just for ABs?

I'm sure that "the Pagey bash" can be used on other hats (as I've seen the results of using his own techniques on a vintage Herbert Johnson), but the tutorial that is hosted on Bama's site is done on an AB, so it's pretty much taken that the techniques will work the best on an AB, but you can use them on other hats at your own risk.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:56 pm

BendingOak wrote:
Do we get to see more pics of this hat ( front view, back view , etc)?

I may be wrong, but I think 3thoubucks is letting the hat "incubate" as a porkpie before he puts in the final bashes. from previous posts I believe he lets the hat stay in a porkpie shape for at least a day or two, so I wouldn't expect pics right away.

Then we shouldn't get the fork out just yet.

Abner1925 · Post by **Abner1925** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:32 pm

Incubating a hat. Now that's funny. How about just buying an AB, bashing it then sqashing it? It's alot quicker and cheaper than all this conspiracy theory stuff.

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:34 pm

Because what works for one might not work for the other.

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:22 am

Abner1925 wrote:Incubating a hat. Now that's funny. How about just buying an AB, bashing it then sqashing it? It's alot quicker and cheaper than all this conspiracy theory stuff.

Quicker and cheaper?

If you order an AB today, how soon will you have it in your hands (or on your head

)? It's at least a few months wait. And for the price of one Beaver AB, you can get two standard Federations. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to knock AB, or convince anyone not to buy one. I've ordered 3 so far myself. But if you want a hat just like the one 3thoubucks has made for himself, with the many mods he believes the original Raiders hat had, then buy an Akubra. Then wait a week or two, tops, until it arrives. Then take another week to sand it, turn it, stitch in a pleat, make it into a porkpie, and then rebash it as a Raiders hat. All in all, the project would probably end up taking 3 weeks or so from start to finish and I'm guessing around $120-$140 USD

-GCR

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:26 am

Also, some people just like to have a project to occupy their time.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:40 am

well put strider. hat projects are a great pastime IMHO.

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:53 am

Strider wrote:Also, some people just like to have a project to occupy their time.

Indiana G wrote:well put strider. hat projects are a great pastime IMHO.

I agree with both of you. To many gearheads, this hobby isn't just about collecting all the gear, but about changing it, modifying it and creating something unique. I didn't just buy a Wested, or a holster, or a web-belt. I modified them, with distressing or color altering techniques to get them to look right, to me. That's part of the fun of it for me. That and using the gear in the real world once I've made the changes I want to make, and allowing natural distressing to take over.

Anyone can buy a regular Federation, but how many people will have one like 3thoubucks, arguably the most screen accurate Federation, and definitely one of the most screen accurate Fedoras, ever?

-GCR

Abner1925 · Post by **Abner1925** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:03 am

With the amount of Feds he has purchased over the years, he could have bought 5 ABs easy. This hasn't been a recent set of experiments either, so ordering an AB now is not the point. He could have ordered, received, and worked on many of them by now.

Also, I do not want anything resembling the hat he has made. I'll stay with my Indy fedoras, thank you. I honestly don't think his hat is anywhere near screen accurate, in my opinion.

It's a project for some sure.... but this seems like an obsession. It's not rocket science, it's just a hat. They didn't do all this crazy stuff to the HJ thy used in Raiders and everyone with any common sense knows it. The AB has a block and brim shape as close as you can get to the original, so my point is... this seems like he doesn't even want to try working with the obvious.

Wearing a hat out in the real world is a fine way to occupy your time, BTW.

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:24 am

Abner1925 wrote:With the amount of Feds he has purchased over the years, he could have bought 5 ABs easy. This hasn't been a recent set of experiments either, so ordering an AB now is not the point. He could have ordered, received, and worked on many of them by now..

You're right about that, though I'm not positive how many different Indy hats 3thoubucks has purchased over the years, or what the overall expense is. I might be wrong, but I think he may even have an AB already. I vaguely recall him mentioning something like that from another post a while back...again, I might be wrong. Anyway, my point was, if someone wanted to replicate the 3thoubucks process to achieve the same results, it would cost less and take less time than buying an AB.

Abner1925 wrote:Also, I do not want anything resembling the hat he has made. I'll stay with my Indy fedoras, thank you. I honestly don't think his hat is anywhere near screen accurate, in my opinion.

Though I know it's your own opinion, which I respect, and knowing that everyone has their own personal preferences as far as how they want their fedoras to look, saying his hat is not "anywhere near screen accurate" is a bit harsh, I think, based on one dark pic of the side profile of a hat that isn't even finished yet. Maybe you should withhold judgement at least until there are some clearer shots, showing all the different sides of the finished hat?

Abner1925 wrote:It's a project for some sure.... but this seems like an obsession. It's not rocket science, it's just a hat.

Well, that's debateable!!! I'm sure there are more than a few gearheads out there that stradle that fine line between "hobby" and "obsession".

Abner1925 wrote:They didn't do all this crazy stuff to the HJ thy used in Raiders and everyone with any common sense knows it. The AB has a block and brim shape as close as you can get to the original, so my point is... this seems like he doesn't even want to try working with the obvious.

Some of those "crazy theories" aren't all that crazy if you ask me. It seems pretty obvious that the Raiders hat was turned to some degree. It's apparent. The bow and brim are a dead giveaway. Yet there was a time not too long ago that people scoffed at that idea. And the crease / wrinkle / pleat (whatever you wanna call it) in the right front dent was there, plain as day, watch the film, you can see it. Now, maybe it wasn't a sewn pleat, but it was something. You don't buy a hat off the shelf with a weird crease in the middle of your right front dent. Then again, I'm still not sold on ALL of 3thoubucks theories, but at least they do attempt to offer some sort of explaination for some of the strange nuances of the Raiders hat (the "porkpie" lines for instance).

Abner1925 wrote:Wearing a hat out in the real world is a fine way to occupy your time, BTW.

I agree, I'll never dispute this. I wear my fedora almost every day. I wear it to the office, I wear it camping, hiking, hunting, you name it. Some folks don't. Some don't wear it at all. Those folks just want a great looking replica/collectable to put on a shelf with all their other props and gear. That's not me, but I can respect that. There are many, many different aspects to this hobby beyond just buying the gear, and many different types of gearheads in the world because of that.

-GCR

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:57 am

Can you smell what's slow cookin'?...... It's Pork Pie!

hp · Post by hp » Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:01 am

3thoubucks,
your effort deserves admiration!

I have one question: do you believe they did all these "tricks" for the film head as well or do you just try to replicate the look?

If they did it back in 1980, please tell us briefly the reasons for these modifications (pleat, pok pie, brim etc.). Though I studied all your posts and raidershat.com, I haven't got the key points yet...

Cheers
HP

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:14 am

Abner1925 wrote:With the amount of Feds he has purchased over the years, he could have bought 5 ABs easy. This hasn't been a recent set of experiments either, so ordering an AB now is not the point. He could have ordered, received, and worked on many of them by now.

What's your point? Believe it or not, The Adventurebilt is not the be all end all of fedoras, even though it is a very fine hat. No hat is. Y'know why? Like I said earlier, what works for you doesn't mean it's going to work for everyone. Otherwise, every clothing manufacturer would be making millions in the "one size fits all" business. Sure, he "could have" ordered a few, but what if he didn't want to? Honestly, your same argument could be used for ABs. "Why did you buy an AB? You could have gotten two Akubra Federations for that price." You wanted an AB. 3K$ wanted Akubra Federations. What's that have to do with the price of tea in China?

Abner1925 wrote:Also, I do not want anything resembling the hat he has made. I'll stay with my Indy fedoras, thank you. I honestly don't think his hat is anywhere near screen accurate, in my opinion.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but I'd like to remind you that the "turn" (y'know, what everyone asks for when they order their Raiders ABs?) was, at one point, one of 3K$' "theories".

Abner1925 wrote:It's a project for some sure.... but this seems like an obsession. It's not rocket science, it's just a hat.

Again, what's your point? If you wanted to apply the "it's just a ..." prefix, then no one would have any hobbies. "It's just a model train." "It's just a whip."

Abner1925 wrote:They didn't do all this crazy stuff to the HJ thy used in Raiders

And you know this because...?

Abner1925 wrote:and everyone with any common sense knows it.

A third time, what's your point? 60 years ago, anyone with any "common sense" would have called you a looney if you said that man would one day walk on the moon.

Abner1925 wrote:The AB has a block and brim shape as close as you can get to the original

And I suppose it's completely impossible to try and replicate "the original" on your own?

Abner1925 wrote:so my point is...

*rubs hands together* Alright, finally!

Abner1925 wrote:this seems like he doesn't even want to try working with the obvious.

Ok, now I feel like I did when I watched The Phantom Menace for the first time.

Why do people build their own computers instead of just going out and buying one that's already made? Or, for that matter, why do people build things, period, when there's already something pre-made they can just go buy? I tell you. They like that sense of accomplishment. The feeling that they did something with their own two hands, instead of taking the easy way out.

In the case of fedoras, the easy way out is fine and dandy for some, but like my original point above, what works for you doesn't necessarily work for everyone else. If this is how 3K$ chooses to spend his time and hard earned money, so be it. If it's what he has fun doing, great! I mean, seriously. We all dress up like a movie character and try to find ways to justify doing it daily. Not like we all don't have a screw loose here or there.

Abner1925 · Post by **Abner1925** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:33 am

Wow, the conspiracy theorists have banded together and formed a team now!

Funny how you are so quick to believe that all these crazy things were done to get a hat shape. It couldn't possibly be that they did exactly what they said they did - sit on the hat! I have seen wonderful results on this forum alone, where sitting on and roughing up the hat has provided all the creases and wrinkles of the SOC without starting from a pork pie design or stuffing an oversized hat with extra sweatbands, wire, or soda bottles.

The AB may not be the be all/end all of all fedoras, but it's light years closer than a Federation. And for the record, 3Thou was offered an AB and an AB Deluxe for free to experiment with and he turned them both down. Remember to tell Fedora what you think about his design the next time you order one.

Don't snap to some quick defense as though the person you are jumping on is new to this interest. There are many people out here that don't post much, but have been around the scene for years.

randystokes · Post by **randystokes** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:15 pm

Regardless of the various "conspiracy theories," I wanted to compliment 3thoubucks on his dedication and diligence. Excellent work. And who can complain about someone as devoted to this particular hobby -- quest -- as 3thoubucks?

Fine work. Keep us posted.

Randy

G-MANN · Post by **G-MANN** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:28 pm

congrats

Shawnkara · Post by **Shawnkara** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:17 pm

You know, 3thou has been asked many times if he believes these steps were actually used on the film hats, or if they're just his own "kooky" methods, with the exception of the pork pie mod. And calling it "conspiracy" is a bit strong, too. To his defense (and to my knowledge) he has never confirmed or denied his beliefs on this one way or the other. So, arguing how nuts he is/isn't is a moot point.

There are generally two camps of people here; those who collect gear with 75%-85% screen accuracy and are more interested in the "real world" application of this stuff. Then there are those who strive to create totally screen accurate "costume pieces". It's not to say "costume pieces" can not be worn for daily use, it's just that we're more interested in accuarcy than with wrether or not our "Indy" hat is clean enough or nice-looking enough to be worn with a suit to a wedding.

I've also observed over the years on this board (and this not directed at anyone in particular) that there have always been far too many people content to take a vendor's word, or another fans word, regarding what is/isn't "screen accurate". None of us were there, and none of us truly know. We have stills and DVD's, open to our individual perception. If you really care about the hobby, take the time at least to go over this stuff on your own. Stop asking for exact brim widths, crown heights and pleat depths. NO ONE here knows any of this with any profound certainty.

In the pursuit of "replicating" a particular look, who cares if certain "tricks" were or were not used on the screen item? It's about doing what you have to do to get "the look". That's why it's called "replicating".

I've not always agreed with 3thou's theories, but I've always admired his dedication. He knows what he wants, and he doesn't give up. And I've grown tired of the old "It's only a...." cliche. Of course it's only a whip, or a hat, or a jacket, etc. You're SUPPOSED to take your hobbies seriously, that's what makes them fun and enjoyable. If it's really "Just a...." then why bother at all, if it's not important to you?

Strider is right about the sense of accomplishment that comes from making something yourself. Nothing tops that feeling; knowing you now have exactly what you wanted, and that YOU did it. I know not everyone can do that, but if you can, you should. Or you should at least try.

I don't see the point in bashing 3thou for his "crazy" theories. He's going for an accurate "costume piece". If his methods work, they work. Yes, you can get the general worn appearance of the Raiders hat by just crushing a soft felt hat, but you won't get every single and exact ripple, detail and flaw seen in that hat. As obsessed as it may be, that's what 3thou is trying to do.

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:18 pm

Abner1925 wrote:Wow, the conspiracy theorists have banded together and formed a team now!

Funny how you are so quick to believe that all these crazy things were done to get a hat shape. It couldn't possibly be that they did exactly what they said they did - sit on the hat! I have seen wonderful results on this forum alone, where sitting on and roughing up the hat has provided all the creases and wrinkles of the SOC without starting from a pork pie design or stuffing an oversized hat with extra sweatbands, wire, or soda bottles..

Well, okay, I'm not sure if your post is directed toward myself or Strider, or perhaps both of us, as we are now apparently a "team".

I have stated that I don't believe in every single one of theories put forth by 3thoubucks. I was never a firm believer in the wire theory (which, if I'm not mistaken, he himself has abandoned) and I'm not so sure about the porkpie theory either. But the "turn" is for real. Take a good long look at the Raiders hat and tell me that hat is bashed on center. Tell me that a normal brim does those things on a normal centered hat. Tell me that HJ used to install their hat bows so close to the front of the hat.

As for the porkpie theory, I believe this hinges on the idea that the hat used for the Raiders fedora started off as an "Australian" Model hat bashed as a porkpie. As far as I know, the only way to replicate the odd lines that appear to circle the upper crown of the Raiders hat is to follow 3thoubucks porkpie method. If you want absolute screen accuracy, then, technically, you can't overlook the upper crown lines. And if you want the lines, you need the porkpie treatment. Does this mean I believe that the Raiders hat was once a porkpie? No, I reserve the right to accept the unknown, and I don't know about that. But SOMETHING made those lines in the Raiders hat.

Abner1925 wrote:The AB may not be the be all/end all of all fedoras, but it's light years closer than a Federation. And for the record, 3Thou was offered an AB and an AB Deluxe for free to experiment with and he turned them both down. Remember to tell Fedora what you think about his design the next time you order one.

I did not know 3thoubucks was offered ABs and turned them down. This I can willingly admit, and I stand humbly corrected. As for what I think of Fedora's design and the AB's in general, I have already stated that I believe the AB's to be the absolute best Raiders fedora available. I don't even have one yet, though I am waiting on 3 of them. But from what I have seen in pics, read on this board and the way that Steve and Marc have tackled this AB project head on with such dedication and enthusiam, I feel confident in my assestment of the AB, even though I have never held one in my hands. So I guess I shall confess this to Fedora next time I order an AB (and I will, you can bet on that).

Abner1925 wrote:Don't snap to some quick defense as though the person you are jumping on is new to this interest. There are many people out here that don't post much, but have been around the scene for years.

I should know, I'm one of them. I didn't post much here for a couple of years, until a few months ago. But I still poked my head in to keep up to date on any new developments. I can remember chatting about gear over at Indyfan with a few other folks here, back before Indyfan required you to register in order to post. I've been gear-hunting since the 80's, myself. And I didn't mean to "jump" on you, either. That wasn't my intention. As a fellow member of this board and a fellow gearhead, I respect your opinion. I just thought your initial posts seemed a bit "out of place", I guess. A guy like 3thoubucks has put a lot of time, money and effort into his project. Maybe you think his project is a waste of all that time, money and effort. If so, fine, that's your opinion. But do you have to tell him that? Or rip his hat in one dark, not so great quality pic?

"Hey everyone, look at my finished project, that I worked my tail off for."

"Yeah, so what? Why not just buy this other thing instead?"

-GCR

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:48 pm

Shawnkara wrote: I've also observed over the years on this board (and this not directed at anyone in particular) that there have always been far too many people content to take a vendor's word, or another fans word, regarding what is/isn't "screen accurate".

I agree to a point. When it's one of the vendors who MADE the items for the movie and actors from direct measurement sessions WITH the actor, and some (granted, not all) still have the records of what they made for the actor for said project (like Noel Howard did, and still does to this day), I'll believe him over the theorists.

Regards! Michaelson

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:02 pm

3M$ has had great fun in getting the look he likes. Let's not take that from him. For me, I think if the original Raiders HJ fell into our laps, we would not be able to come to a consensus as to whether it was the "one" or not.

We do better when we see a pic of a particular hat and then say, it looks very Raideresque or more often, nope, that's not it. Some of our disagreements are nothing more than human subjectivity. IMHO. I think we tend to caricature "the hat" in our vision of it. We over emphasize certain things, from certain scenes, and the distortion involved affects our vision of "the hat". For instance, a guy may want a hat that does not have the raked backed front pinch as seen from the sides, but at the same time, he wants deep bashes in the front. Of course, this is impossible. Something has to give, and in this case, the felt on the front has to give, and that logically gives you the front tilt of the crease. Once you get a fairly straight sided hat with little taper, an experienced stylist can get "the look" with no problem. Doing this with a too tapered hat, or one too short or too tall is almost impossible.

Creating hats for the real world involves losing something. You want a hat that will last you a lifetime? Then you will lose part of the original look. A better felt has to be used than on the original. Better felt will not react the same as the Raiders felt. Not exactly the same. You want a hat that will take a reblock-safely, then you better use less machine stitching at the brim break. Or better, move the stitching off the break, and this has to be a hand sewn attachment as opposed to machine. Like HJ used to do. There are tradeoffs when you move away from costume quality to the real deal. All you can do is try to tradeoff, only when neccesary.

I think the Raiders felt was some older felt HJ was still using, and cannot be had anymore. At least outside of some vintage HJs, I have not seen it in the modern felt. And I think I have seen 99 per cent of what is being made today. It was not top of the line felt, but it had the right characteristic to provide some of that look. Fedora

randystokes · Post by **randystokes** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:13 pm

I agree with Fedora. If Harrison Ford went into his closet, pulled out a specially marked hat box and said, "Here. This is the hat I wore in the [fill in the blank] scene in Raiders. I guarantee it." we'd probably all still sit around comparing it to pictures in that scene and say "No, that's not it. See the creases, see the turn, see the whatever."

I'm also convinced that most of us, if given one of the hats worn in one of the movies -- all beat up, distressed, etc. by the costumers -- would say "Eww, I wonder if Fedora can salvage this."

Still, as said above, I commend 3thoubucks for all his investigation and hard work.

Randy

randystokes · Post by **randystokes** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:18 pm

Actually, the hat I would like the best would be the one that would magically make ME look just like Harrison Ford in any of the three movies. If I could find THAT hat, I'm sure my wife would let me pay anything for it!

Randy

Indiana Kev · Post by **Indiana Kev** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:36 pm

Indiana_Tone wrote:This is all too complicated and confusing. I'm going with a Dorfman.

"Dude, that looks like cr-"
"-I know."
"It's all tape-"
"-I know."
"You know there are like four hats out there that can get a pretty go-"
"-Yes, but too much pressure. And the pin stays in the ribbon."
"It's GOT A TEARDROP CROWN!"
":whip: -Tut! Shsh! This is MY INDY Hat." ~~~~~~~~~~

Why's everybody always making fun of my Dorfman? I mean I did take the "Indiana Jones" pin out of the bow? Will anything ever be good enough? That's it, the pin goes back on the hat!

Would it be wrong to put one of those Indiana Jones pins on an AB? (quickly jumps behind a car to avoid the beating)

Indiana Kev · Post by **Indiana Kev** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:07 am

I knew it Tone, why do you have to hate my hat?! [I caught the joke part, just thought I would add a bit too it, I guess I need to work on my sense of humor]

I haven't posted any pics of my current DP, but I did post a thread about my "vintage DP." I thought calling it a "vintage DP" was pretty funny.

I think very few people actually notice differences in the Indiana Jones hats other than gear heads...I doubt there are many people like 3M$ who can notice such little details about the hat in the screen grabs.

I do look forward to wearing my AB around Disney in the future but it will be pinless.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:49 am

Fedora is always refuting my theories with "it's superior felt that does the trick" And he's right. If the felt is plyable enough, you can basicly shape the exact hat you want, if there's enough felt, and not too much. If he sanded an AB as thin as I've sanded this hat, he could do more with it than I could with mine. The turn theory wasn't mine, it's something I heard about, and illustrated and promoted like no one one had before. I guess I was the first one around here to notice the "pork pie" lines. This year's "3 sizes too big" theory was a dead end. (By the way, I bought my first Akubra Federation only 6 months ago.) It gave me a good looking hat, but it was too big. The 2 inch turn theory makes sense in some ways, in some ways not. When Fedora started selling AB's, I was looking for an Australian pork pie. He went the Poet route, with Marc, and I've gone Akubra. It's like Democrats and Republicans. Sheitetes and Sunis, PS3 and X-Box, P.C or Mac, Aguilera or Spears, Gibson or Fender, Blue Ray or Hi Def .... It's all good, whatever. Mark and Fedora have been generous in their offers of free hats to the extreme, and I thank them.

Magnum Jones · Post by **Magnum Jones** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:38 am

Randy brings up a good point. Is it the hat or the Harrison Ford look that we all want to achieve. Can you really spin gold out of straw

:

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:49 am

Fedora is always refuting my theories with "it's superior felt that does the trick"

I have felt for some time now that the SOC look was mostly just the type of felt used, along with quite a bit if distressing. The ribbon seems unusually tight for an HJ, so I assume at some point the ribbon was pulled tight for some reason. It is interesting to think about why this was done. Not for cosmetic reasons, if you take into account the hats from the last two films that featured a loose ribbon. In that case, it looks like the hat shrunk and the ribbon did not. Or the ribbon was not swirled when installed on the tapered crown. But back to the SOC hat. That ribbon is tight, really tight. So much so that it pulls in the back of the hat and the felt bulges over the ribbon. The reverse taper we talk about. But, it is nothing more than a bulge of felt. Not true reverse taper. If you look at the bottom of the ribbon and then follow a line up the back of the hat, you can see that the hat actually tapers in somewhat, then the bulge brings it back plumb. But, the bottom of the ribbon and the top of the hat is not plumb. It tapers. Illusions created by bulging felt.

You see the same effects on the sides of the SOC hat. There are bulges that creates the illusion that the hat is actually squarer than it actually is. All of this is about the felt.

On the porkpie, to me the line that is seen supposedly created by the hat being a porkpie occured when the hat was sat on. Pop your hat out to open crown, now just puch it down like your hand was your rearend. What do you get? A porkpie, or practically a porkpie. Folks, generally speaking, the block shape used to create a porkpie is similiar to a number 51 block. Trust me, nothing resmemblling the 51 was ever used for ANY Indy fedora. Blocks simliar to the 51 were created for hats that had the crown folded down inside, or for hats with a deep c-dent like the Bogey fedora, and even the Croc Dundee hat. All of these hats used the same block shape.

I think if 3M$ would have lucked upon the same sort felt used back then, his quest would have been shortened. But, I know what great fun the quest involves, so I think his quest as followed has been worthwhile for him, and for us. He basically reverse engineered the felt needed.

Sanding down a hat is ok if used for a display hat. But not so good for a hat you want to keep as a daily wearer. Felt has 3 layers. Outer layer, the core, and the outer layer. The consistency of the core is not the same as the outer layers. Felt felts, from the outside in. Therefore the best felt, is in the outer layers. I am talking new hats here, or fairly new hats. So, you don't want to remove too much or you hit the core. Since core felt is felted less, the hat will shrink faster. Another tradeoff.

Fedora

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:17 pm

Abner1925 wrote:Wow, the conspiracy theorists have banded together and formed a team now!

Funny how you are so quick to believe that all these crazy things were done to get a hat shape. It couldn't possibly be that they did exactly what they said they did - sit on the hat!

Have "we"? I checked my post, but I don't see where I said that I endorse any of 3K$ theories, but I do endorse his right to come up with them and test them. *Checks the ol' Thesaurus* I guess that makes me a "conspiracy theorist."

Abner1925 wrote:I have seen wonderful results on this forum alone, where sitting on and roughing up the hat has provided all the creases and wrinkles of the SOC without starting from a pork pie design or stuffing an oversized hat with extra sweatbands, wire, or soda bottles.

Again, that's YOU.

Abner1925 wrote:The AB may not be the be all/end all of all fedoras, but it's light years closer than a Federation.

In your opinion.

Abner1925 wrote:And for the record, 3Thou was offered an AB and an AB Deluxe for free to experiment with and he turned them both down. Remember to tell Fedora what you think about his design the next time you order one.

Maybe 3K$ didn't want to do to a 250$ hat what he does to a 100$ hat. For the record, I have loved every AB I have ever owned. I think my Akubra is wonderful, too.

Abner1925 wrote:Don't snap to some quick defense as though the person you are jumping on is new to this interest. There are many people out here that don't post much, but have been around the scene for years.

I don't know what you expect, man. You showed up with an argument that amounts to: "You're stupid because you didn't do it [~this~] way."

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:03 pm

It seems likely to me Ford had his hat on under the headgear at the Tannis digs- getting mushed down in 130 degree heat. Sallah and none of diggers headgear looks anything like it. It's huge. He didn't have his hat with him when he hiked up to the top of the Well of Souls, but as the sun set, he had it. it was under the headgear in my opinion. I think it's another clue to the SOC look.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:08 pm

....but thats post SOC and now you're getting into the WOS bash.

i have no idea what i'm talking about, i just wanted to play devil's advocate

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:11 pm

Tannis was filmed before Cairo. But I just realized, the hat would have got a bit of this treatment at Elstree in the Map Room scene.

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:09 pm

3thoubucks wrote:It seems likely to me Ford had his hat on under the headgear at the Tannis digs- getting mushed down in 130 degree heat. Sallah and none of diggers headgear looks anything like it. It's huge. He didn't have his hat with him when he hiked up to the top of the Well of Souls, but as the sun set, he had it. it was under the headgear in my opinion. I think it's another clue to the SOC look.

I pondered this scenario myself a while back, but I don't think it would have been possible for Ford (or Indy, depending on whether we're talking about reality or the story) to hide such a tall, wide-brimmed hat under his headgear, even though his headgear is so much larger than everyone elses. I always figured one of Sallah's workers carried the rest of Indy's gear in a bag or something. After all, we don't see Indy's leather jacket until they uncover the well of souls, but I don't think that means he had it on underneath his "Arab disguise". I think it would have been too hot to wear a felt hat and a leather jacket underneath all of that in 120 degree + heat.

-GCR

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