Streets of Cairo

[GCR]

Well, with a trio of new AB's coming my way in the next few months, I've decided to get a little crazy with my Akubra Fed Deluxe, "Streets of Cairo" style. I sat on my hat before, to help get it more "broken in", and it's been squashed a few other times, but this time I decided to go for broke. First, I stuffed the hat under the seat cushion of my couch, and sat on it for a good 3+ hours (about the time of a football game.) Then I took it out, popped it back into shape, and beat it back down with one of the pillows from the couch. Then I popped it back into shape again, stuffed another pillow in the crown (to help keep the shape) and then I proceeded to beat the crown down with a small novelty baseball bat (the kind made out of real wood, about 18 inches long). I then removed the pillow, sat on the hat one more time, popped it back into shape and pushed the dents back in. The result? Some decent "mushrooming" effect, similar to the kind that appears in this now famous photo (from Pyroxene's thread in this section)



Plus I'm getting some nice reverse taper in the back of the crown. Here's my Akubra, getting closer, I'd say. It still needs more pronounced reverse taper on the left (bow) side of the crown, though, and a bit more "droop & flop" in the brim. A few more "treatments" and a nice dose of desert sand and it should look just right.















Stay tuned for the finished product.

-GCR

[Canyon]

GCR, wonderful post! Your Akubra looks magnificent!

*sigh* Harrison's eyes look so dreamy in that photo

[Indiana G]

thats lookin good GCR. you've inspired me to go work on my fed today!.....nothing else to do....its -25 deg C outside!!!

[GCR]

thats lookin good GCR. you've inspired me to go work on my fed today!.....nothing else to do....its -25 deg C outside!!!

Wow, how cold is that, anyway? I've never been any good at converting C to F...on my first trip to the UK, it was November and I nearly had a heart attack when, upon landing at Heathrow, the Captain announced the local tempurature as a "chilly 13 degrees". Having only my brown leather jacket (Not a Wested, this was in between Westeds), I freaked, until I realized it was 13 degrees C and not F...

Anyways, thanks Canyon and G for the compliments...it's still a work in progress...a bit more "bashing" and it should look right

-GCR

[3thoubucks]

If we're to believe the HJ employee from last year, the Raiders hat was made on a heated expanding block. And the Akubra machine is likely the same machine as HJ's? A Federation made out of vintage Poet felt, with a pleat at the base of the crown in the front dent- like the Raiiders hat (which takes taper out of the crown) might look just as good in the side view? Maybe Akubra just needs to give it an extra turn?

[Erri]

Amazing results my friend. My compliments! If I had a cheaper hat I would have tried but now I find myself with two ABs... one is a Deluxe and the other one is an AB reblocked by Marc!

[VP]

thats lookin good GCR. you've inspired me to go work on my fed today!.....nothing else to do....its -25 deg C outside!!!

Wow, how cold is that, anyway? I've never been any good at converting C to F...

-13 degrees Fahrenheit. It's +7 Celsius here, 45° Fahrenheit.

[Fedora]

First, what a great looking Federation!! If you want the SOC hat, you better beat the hat up so the pristine new look is softened up.

If we're to believe the HJ employee from last year, the Raiders hat was made on a heated expanding block. And the Akubra machine is likely the same machine as HJ's? A Federation made out of vintage Poet felt, with a pleat at the base of the crown in the front dent- like the Raiiders hat (which takes taper out of the crown) might look just as good in the side view? Maybe

Personally 3M$, unless Mr Swales comes out of the woodwork and verifies this, I have a hard time swallowing that assertion by the HJ employee. Why? Because the heated expaned block is only used to stretch a hat out that was too small, and this usually occured when the felt on a hat would shrink with wear. It was cheaper to do this than a complete reblock. No reputable hatter would ever take a too small hat, and use the stretcher to make the hat larger, before he sold it. There is something funny here in that statement from the HJ employee. Knowing what I know about stretching hats and the process of making hats, it just seems too far fetched. It has the effect of sending people on the wrong trail too. I challenge anyone to take a new hat, and put it on a heated stretcher, and come up with something close to the Raiders fedora. Unless you have tried this, it is easy to accept. Try it first, and then make a judgement. You may be surprised with what happens to the top of the crown in the exercise. When I look at the Raiders fedora, I see nothing that would hint at a stretcher being used. And like I said, it never was a common practice to size up new hats by using one. Fedora

[Michaelson]

No reputable hatter would ever take a too small hat, and use the stretcher to make the hat larger, before he sold it. Fedora

This could be the key, Fedora. Remember the time frame. Not saying that HJ wasn't reputable, but at the time short cuts WERE being taken by companies due to either not having a size in stock, and with the possiblilty of missing a sale, this was the easiest thing to do. Bear in mind that they were selling a 'lot' of hats to Paramont for a movie. They weren't making a single tailored hat for Harrison Ford. The very first fur felt fedora I purchased was sized exactly this way, as they only had a 7 1/4 in stock, and upsized it to a 7 3/8's using this very method after talking me into the purchase. Of course, at that time I didn't know any better, but I sure know better now.

So, like it or not, this could very well be a possibility considering these hats would have been purchased and delivered in late 79, early 80, and hats weren't as popular then as they've become, so the faster the turnaround, the better for HJ.

Just a thought.....

Regards! Michaelson

[Abner1925]

Aside from any debate about how the hats "might" have been made, sitting on it and squashing it seems to have produced excellent results. Nice work on this one GCR.

[Indiana G]

GCR,

i just crushed my hat yesterday and popped it back. i repeated this 3 or 4 times without much time to let it sit scrunched up and the bulbing and bowing is now quite prevelant in the crown. these feds respond quite nicely to distressing i must say. my fed and i thank you for the motivation/inspiration!

cheers!

[Fedora]

This could be the key, Fedora. Remember the time frame. Not saying that HJ wasn't reputable, but at the time short cuts WERE being taken by companies due to either not having a size in stock, and with the possiblilty of missing a sale, this was the easiest thing to do. Bear in mind that they were selling a 'lot' of hats to Paramont for a movie. They weren't making a single tailored hat for Harrison Ford. The very first fur felt fedora I purchased was sized exactly this way, as they only had a 7 1/4 in stock, and upsized it to a 7 3/8's using this very method after talking me into the purchase. Of course, at that time I didn't know any better, but I sure know better now.

So, like it or not, this could very well be a possibility considering these hats would have been purchased and delivered in late 79, early 80, and hats weren't as popular then as they've become, so the faster the turnaround, the better for HJ.

Yes, of course it is possible. I think it is well known they made 12 hats for Ford. Or was this number inclusive of the stunt hats as well. I heard that one stunt guy(under the truck stuntman) wore a 7 5/8 hat. I wonder how many other non Indy hats were supplied by HJ? Anyone know, or remember? I still have a hard time thinking that they made all of Ford's hat using a stretcher due to them not having a single one in his size. It is one of the more common sizes today, 2006. But, if it turns out they did indeed use one, this might explain the anomaly of the Raiders fedora, if you disregard the stunt hats. At least the one wore by the stunt guy I mentioned. (I know his name as well as my own, but........) His hat looks to have the same block shape as Ford's. Unless, of course, his hat was stretched as well. We would need a few coincidences to follow this line of thought.

This discussion is prompting me to stretch out my own AB one size and see what happens. So, let me get a new hat blocked and while it cools, I will steam up the AB and stretch it up with the heated stretcher. I know the stretcher will make a long oval out of a regular oval, as long as the hat size is above a size 7 1/8. We shall also see if we get the stretch marks like 3M$ maintains is on some Akubras. ( I have doubts about that happening, but we shall see) Right off, I can visualize a mushroom crown from the front and back views, and an oblong hat, or long oval. Stay tuned. Fedora

[Michaelson]

Could be the way to finally create a long oval for MY head, Fedora!

Regards! Michaelson

[GCR]

I think it is well known they made 12 hats for Ford. Or was this number inclusive of the stunt hats as well. ... I wonder how many other non Indy hats were supplied by HJ? Anyone know, or remember? I still have a hard time thinking that they made all of Ford's hat using a stretcher due to them not having a single one in his size. It is one of the more common sizes today, 2006.

I, too, doubt that they did not have enough 7 1/4 size hats to cover Ford during filming. I believe the 12 hats supplied by HJ for Raiders could have included the stunt hats for the men doubling Ford, and it could also have included other "Non" Indy hats, like the gray hats worn by the Nazi Agents in Cairo, Toht's Hat, the other black fedora worn by Toht's buddy wielding the MP-40 in the Raven bar, the seaplane/DC hat (which might have been one of the Nazi Cairo hats)

That would be:

At least 2 Cairo Gray Nazi hats

2 black Nazi hats (Toht & his buddy)

One possible gray hat for Ford (Seaplane & DC, if different than the above Cairo Gray hats)

Possibly the Panama worn by Belloq?

That leaves at least 6 brown Indy hats for Ford and the stuntmen...we know of at least 3 stuntmen doubling for Ford (Vic Armstrong, Terry Leonard & Martin Grace). If each stuntman had his own hat, that would leave 3 "Hero" hats for Ford. I personally don't think there are any more than 2 hero hats visible AT MOST in the entire film, as a matter of fact, I would say it is possible that the hero hat, throughout the film, is the same hat, with the exception of the Peru river hat (obviously), the very early Peru scenes (before the hat looks to be turned) and just before Indy & Marion board the Bantu Wind. Otherwise there is enough evidence in my mind to suggest that the Brown "hero" hat is the same throughout the rest of the film...that would mean HJ would only have needed 2 or 3 size 7 1/4 hats...any respectable hatter (and at this time HJ probably still was somewhat respectable) should have been able to cover that. Anyway, I'm anxious to see the results of Fedora's experiment. I've been tweaking my Fed Deluxe to get more of the "mushrooming effect" and I'll have some new pic soon.

-GCR

[Michaelson]

Just to toss another proverbial wrench in the rotating machinery...we're also assuming that they tossed Ford a 'hero' hat for these particular shots. Considering the stunts and action that had to be performed, instead of worrying about his 'hero' hat constantly falling off, they might have just handed him a size smaller to eliminate that problem.

As I've posted over the years, the ONLY hats I've ever owned that produced these very points pursued by the purists were ones that were one size to small for my head....and round shaped rather than my usual long oval. I found them uncomfortable in extended wear, but never worried about a high wind when they were worn.

Regards! Michaelson

[Indiana G]

on the HJ site, the story describes that HJ was commissioned to provide 45 hats for the movie.....but then again their website eluded to a DP being made by them....ha ha...i still get a kick out of that.....

[GCR]

on the HJ site, the story describes that HJ was commissioned to provide 45 hats for the movie.....but then again their website eluded to a DP being made by them....ha ha...i still get a kick out of that.....

I didn't read the text on the site, so I don't know for sure, but 45 sounds more like the total number of HJs made for all 3 films, not just Raiders. I bet HJ got their info screwed up...again

-GCR

[3thoubucks]

I recieved 2 more Regular Federations this week, and they have the obvious "stretch marks". That's 6 in a row with the same marks. The marks are about 2 1/4 inches wide and go from the base up into the corners of the top of the crown. The felt within the marks if softer. or at least more flexible than the rest. Looking at the inside of the hats, the marks are mirrored strongly in sweat and liner. Either these hats are made with a stretcher, or they are crammed tightly on top of each other at some point during manufacture (it would have to be before the ribbons go on, or the ribbons would get messed up.) and get distorted to the extreme. Or both! If I'd never heard of a heated expanding block, or never seen a Federation, I'd still be aware of the similar marks on the Raiders hat. .....This area of GCR's nicely distressed (softened) Fed is so Raiders. All of my Feds have extra thick stiff felt about ribbon high at the base of the crown. The thicknes ends abruptly. Makes it look like a stuffed or folded sweat, then gets weak, right at the top of the ribbon, allowing it to collapse there. If a hat were stretched 2 inches on a stretcher, it seems to me the brim would get transformed up into crown as well. Maybe the center hat in this HJ catalog is what went on the HJ H.E.B.

[Fedora]

The thinner felt above the ribbon normally comes from being stretched on the blocking machine. The traditional idea of a perfect hat, has the hat being thinnest at the top and gradually getting thicker as the felt travels to the brim. So, that is, or was common in hatmaking in the old days.

My experiment will have to be repeated. This is what happened. I stretched the hat from 7 1/4 to 7 3/8 on the heated stretcher, and ended up with wrinkles on the top of the crown, as well as some on one side of the crown. Not stretch marks, but wrinkles. But, once I pulled the hat off of the stretcher, it immediately shrunk back to the original shape and the 7 1/4 size. It looked the same as the pre-stretched hat. So, I put it back on the stretcher, heated the hat up really hot, and then after 30 minutes, turned the stretcher off. I let the hat sit on it overnight to cool down and to help hold the stretched out shape this time. I have not had time yet to play with it, and it will be later on before I get the change. (hats have to be made first and foremost)

The stretcher does create a long oval, no doubt about that, but the deforming of the hat created by the stretcher in the form of stress wrinkles is not a good thing, and I have a feeling if they were "set" by the heat, this may be an ugly hat. We shall see.

Now, from what I have seen so far, it would be much easier, and as fast, to just reblock the hat on the larger block, as a hatter with equipment could do this practically as fast. What I did get from this first experiment was a ribbon that was way too loose when the hat shrunk back down. Everything shrunk, except for the ribbon. Another issue would be the thread that fastens the sweat to the hat. If you use cotton or polyester, it would break, on the sides of the hat. I used braided nylon for attaching and this stuff is much stronger and will stretch. Stay tuned for pics if this one does not shrink back down.


Of course, once you stretch a hat out, the brim has to be set to this new stretched shape. So a reflanging would have to be done to the brim, as the stretching does weird, non Indy things to the brim. And normally you would put a band block inside the hat during the flanging process to maintian sizing. What I am trying to say is stretching a hat properly requires practically the same amount of labor and time as reblocking one.Afterall, you can reblock a hat with a hat block with sweat still installed. Just put the hat on the stretcher, stretch it out enough to fit over the right sized block and pull it down. To set this new stretched out shape, you would need to iron the hat while on the block.

It still seems to me if they needed a 7 1/4 hat, and being a hat factory at that time in space, it would have been just as fast to reblock the hats since they used equipment, and making a hat by this method only takes a few minutes. Stretching a too small hat is what a novice does, or what one infamous hatter does when he sends out a hat too small. These devices are better suited for stretching out a tapered, shrunk hat back to its original size, while the customer waits in a dry cleaners or a small hat shop. I still think that was the original intention of the invention,(I am poetic this morning) as the old hatmakers took great pains in creating good hats.

If a hat were stretched 2 inches on a stretcher, it seems to me the brim would get transformed up into crown as well.

Stretching a hat two inches in circumference would be like stretching a size 7 hat(22 inches) up to a size 7 5/8(24 inches) It ain't gonna happen, trust me. That's a 5 size stretch. No way. And the brim would not be transformed into the crown. The stretcher stretches fore and aft, and would create a super duper long, long, long, long, long oval. Non existent block shape by the way.

What you must remember is you can mechanically stretch felt out alot before it tears. But, it won't stay stretched out. Stressed felt will pull back to what it is comfortable being, in size, regardless of how much you stretch it. Or how much you try to "set" the new size. There are limits, as with any other material. Of course, you can stretch out one size with no problem, as the only thing involved is another 1/2 inch to circumference.

The so called stretch marks on the Akubras are not from a hat stretcher. Ron was certain of this. I trust him, and it makes no sense either. Akubra is a factory, and there is no need to resort to this bootblack technique.(those who have the book I posted a link to will know what I mean) Fedora

[Scandinavia Jones]

The stretcher stretches fore and aft, and would create a super duper long, long, long, long, long oval. Non existent block shape by the way.

Actually, such a block did exist - for a while. I made one as a result of a total miscalculation when I was making a block for my Fed. I believe I showed you a pic of the resulting long, long, long oval hat a couple of years ago...

[Fedora]

Actually, such a block did exist - for a while. I made one as a result of a total miscalculation when I was making a block for my Fed. I believe I showed you a pic of the resulting long, long, long oval hat a couple of years ago...
_________________

I sure do recall that one!! But since it was in error, I did not mention it. I bet it made for good firewood though. Regards, Fedora

[Scandinavia Jones]

Not at all - it still exists, heavily altered . After some serious sanding, it looks way better today, and while not a perfect Indy block, it does it's job with the Akubra. That's it in my avatar, btw.

[VP]

Your block has facial hair?

[Michaelson]

You're right on that one, Tone. Folks want the 'Raiders' hat to be all things for all occasions. It just can't be.

Regards! Michaelson

[VP]

Yeah, one gray unturned suit hat and one brown turned adventure/everyday hat.

[Fedora]

I want a Cairo hat."
"Well, sit on it a few times."
"But it won't look good with suits anymore."
"Then you don't want a Cairo hat, you want a Raiders bashed fedora."

The truth of the matter is, the SOC hat just looks like it is in need of a refurbish. The felt has sagged, and bulged and lost the traditional fedora, clean and crisp good look. It looks like a worn out hat, but without the holes. And that is why I love it so much!! But, with that said, it is hard to get that look without beating the hat up and yes, crushing it by sitting on it. If after one sitting, it still doesn't have the proper look, sit on it as many times as it takes. If the hat has stiffener, you will need to break this down before it approaches the look many of us like. The stiffener is put in a new hat to help maintain the new look. When someone ordera a hat from me that they want to look like one of the distressed Indy fedora, that is a tall order. Mainly because I do not feel comfortable beating up a new hat, for someone else. And, that is easy to so yourself. Most can tear up a steel ball with a feather. Fedora

[Scandinavia Jones]

Your block has facial hair?

Yes, VP. It has. Lots of it. It's the original ZZ Top hat block, you see.

"That" in the last sentence referring to my Akubra, obviously...

[Fedora]

I am afraid the experiment was basically a waste of time. I basically ended up with an Indy fedora that was just an extra long oval. No stretch marks occured on the sides once I pulled it off the heated crown stretcher. The stretcher did get rid of some of the back curve where the back moves up to form the top, and my ribbon loosened up so it appears like the LC, and TOD ribbon, that is, it stands away from the front of the hat. So, perhaps if the heated stretcher was used, it was used on the stiffer LC hat to shape it to Fords long oval head shape. Now that would make good sense. Here are some before and after pics.


Before: front view





This is after the stretch, front view




Here it is, before: side view



And after: side view


I forgot to get a before creased view, but you know what the Ab looks like already, so here is the after creased view from the front



And an after, side view. Notice the ala LC and TOD loose ribbon.

[Michaelson]

If it's a size 7 3/8, you KNOW who's been trying to get an extra long oval from the AB hat company since it began.

Regards! Michaelson

[Fedora]

If it's a size 7 3/8, you KNOW who's been trying to get an extra long oval from the AB hat company since it began.

Well, I got the thinga-ma-jig to do the extra long ones now. So, my experiment was not completely in vain. Of course it would not do a perfect extra long oval as it is only 6 3/8 inches wide. A little narrow for a perfect 7 3/8 long, long oval. Fedora

[Michaelson]

Boy, ain't THAT the truth. I can just see my eyes bugging out trying to get THAT one on!!

Regards! Michaelson

[GCR]

Yes, but GCR is also able to get the same mushrooming effect on a Fed Deluxe that IIRC 3thou has said "does not" have the stretch marks like the Fed Regular is said to have. So, if GCR gets the same effect on a fed that is not stretched, etc. it seems the mushrooming is a natural shape that occurs from squashing a raiders bashed hat downward, not whether or not it was stretched on a stretcher.

When I first got my Fed Deluxe back in '03, it DID have those strange "flat" spots on the sides of the crown. I noticed it the minute I took the hat out of the box. But that was over three years ago...the flat areas disappeared once I bashed the hat and wore it a few times. This photo shows my Akubra, literally seconds after I put in the first bashes with just my breath to soften up the felt.



The flat spots were there in that pic, but they don't really have any effect on the shape or look of the crown. Those flat areas are nowhere to be found today, and frankly, I'm willing to believe Ron at Hatsdirect when he says there were no strechers used. Either way, my hat didn't get that sagging and mushrooming until I squashed it and sat on it and beat the heck out of it. Since I started this thread, I've been trying to get more of the curve/reverse taper in the left (bow) side of the crown on my hat. I'm not having much luck. I beginning to think that my Fed Deluxe has reached the maximum sagging point, and perhaps the thickness of the felt prevents the hat from sagging and mushrooming to the same extent as the thinner felt of the Raiders hat. Here are the latest pics.









If you compare them with the photo of the actual Cairo hat I posted above, you can also see that it looks like there is a considerable difference in the overall amount of felt in the Raiders hat vs. my Fed Deluxe. Meaning the Raiders hat looks like it has more volume/space in the crown. Perhaps this was due to the HJ block shape of that era? Maybe it's due to the Raiders hat being turned further than my Fed D? My Fed D has had some shrinkage, which is noticable (in the form of taper) when I take the hat off, or when I pop out all the dents, perhaps the key is to do all these things (turning, bashing, sitting, etc.) with a NEW hat, to maximize the amount of felt or the fresh shape of the crown?

-GCR

[Indiana G]

the first and second pic looks awesome GCR! i say keep doing whata you're doing. i think the key to a really good SOC bash is time and patience.

[3thoubucks]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't think Ron at Hatsdirect said he knew for sure that stretchers weren't used. I think he said he didn't think they were, and wasn't particularly aware of the marks at all. GCR, I think you are the only person besides me who has noticed them. Yes they do fade, but then again, they only catch my eye in the Elstree studio and not in Tunisia. -- I think the brim gets pulled up into the crown when the hat is stretched. When I sand my Feds, there is a white powder that develops in the brim and the first inch and a half of the crown. The white powder, which must be shellack stiffener, isn't there above the inch and a half line. (The white area seems short, but I only sanded in that spot, skipped a space then sanded a spot higher on the crown. I don't sand the first inch and a half of the crowns now, because it seems to be key to the Raiders look.) -- Fedora, thanks for experimenting. Does you hat stretcher look like this? or the smaller pic? Aparently, a thin metal plate is used on the top of the stretcher to keep the tops of Feds from developing stretch marks. Interesting you notice the felt returns to shape. I think Deluxes snap back more than Regular Feds, and maybe the Raiders felt snapped back even less, leaving a fuller crown?

[3thoubucks]

Here's the only comment from Ron I could find- I thought there was one other, but I couldn't find it?

Quote:
Hi Steve,


flew by the forum yesterday and noted the comments about stretch marks and thicker felt - the only thing I can think is occasionally the hats will get a rub mark from the brim up the crown where the cardboard spacer rubs the felt - same as when felt hats are stacked one on top of each other. Steam takes this out of course. This is the only possible explanation I can see. I have worked with thousands of Akubra hats, shaping, blocking, re-conditioning, etc and I have never seen stretch marks

[GCR]

Here's the only comment from Ron I could find-

Quote:
Hi Steve,


flew by the forum yesterday and noted the comments about stretch marks and thicker felt - the only thing I can think is occasionally the hats will get a rub mark from the brim up the crown where the cardboard spacer rubs the felt - same as when felt hats are stacked one on top of each other. Steam takes this out of course. This is the only possible explanation I can see. I have worked with thousands of Akubra hats, shaping, blocking, re-conditioning, etc and I have never seen stretch marks

Well, I stand corrected. So Ron never even addressed the idea that the stretch marks were the work of a stretcher. He doesn't even admit knowledge of their existence. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he's lying or anything, after all, why would he? Plus, from everything I know about him, he seems like a nice enough guy, and he sold me one heck of a hat! BUT, I know for a fact that the stretch marks do exist, as I said above, my Fed D had them right out of the box. So their cause/creation remains a mystery. Perhaps the stretch marks are a rarity, something found in only one out of every 100 or so hats? It IS strange that no one else (aside from 3thoubucks and myself) have had these little marks on their Federations or Deluxes.

Anyway, I think my SOC experiment is over. I just can't get the same effect on my Fed D, at least not to the extent I want. The issue of a lack of felt in the crown (due to shrinkage and a different block shape) is not my only problem. I also have a pinch that is too high. As we have all seen by now (thanks to Fedora) the average height of the front pinch of the Raiders fedora was about 4 1/2". Fedora has stated that this height should work in the size range from 7 1/8 to 7 3/8, and I agree. My size is 7 3/8, and my front pinch height on my Akubra is about 4 3/4". I have tried, without success, to lower the pinch height to the correct 4 1/2". No matter what I do, I can't seem to make it work, the felt is just too thick. To get the right look in the crown, I think I need a thinner felt, and a freshly blocked hat. Turning the hat and then bashing the hat to accurate Raiders specs (my Fed Deluxe was not bashed to these current specs, I bashed it long before I knew about the 4 1/2" front pinch height. The original bash on my Fed D had a front pinch close to, or even slightly over 5"!) before giving it the full SOC treatment might be the only way to get the right look (bulges, sagging, mushrooming, all that good stuff) along with the right proportions.

-GCR

[3thoubucks]

GCR. my Regular Feds have fuller crowns than my Deluxe. As I said, I think the felt on the Deluxe retracts back more after stretching. Your front pinch doesn't look too high at all. I think maybe because your head is a little rounder aand bigger than than Ford's. No matter how much you beat on the hat with a baseball bat, Federation felt will always be thicker than the Raiders hat. It needs to be sanded thinner.

[Fedora]

It IS strange that no one else (aside from 3thoubucks and myself) have had these little marks on their Federations or Deluxes.

I think I never just saw them as stretch marks is all. I think it is just a matter of perception. I have seen indented areas in the place you are talking about, but never thought it had to do with a stretch. And remember, when I stretched out my own hat, they never appeared, not even on the sides where the gaps on the stretcher are. Plus, the hat stretches all over, not just on the sides.I think the stretch marks may be a misnomer. We are calling them that, when in fact they are not. Felt is not like human skin on a pregant woman. When it stretches, it does not leave visible marks. Now, that they appear on the hat where the gaps of a stretcher are located is another question. But, once the hat comes off the stretcher, the indentations that could be there if you steamed the hat and pushed in on the gap, would disapear. I think Ron's explanation is factual. Plus, he has seen thousands of hats...........

Maybe I missed it, but I don't think Ron at Hatsdirect said he knew for sure that stretchers weren't used.

Yes, in another email to me, he stated that in all of his visits to the Akubra factory, he had never seen one used. Those tools were normally not used in the factories anyways, but in the small refurb shops and dry cleaners who cleaned and refurbed hats. It was a tool invented to stretch an old hat back out to an acceptable shape, without having to reblock the hat completely. Lots of the vintage felt would develop dimples after repeated rains, and the stretcher got these out, in fact so well, that the hats appeared to be ironed.

Fedora, thanks for experimenting. Does you hat stretcher look like this? or the smaller pic? Aparently, a thin metal plate is used on the top of the stretcher to keep the tops of Feds from developing stretch marks. Interesting you notice the felt returns to shape. I think Deluxes snap back more than Regular Feds, and maybe the Raiders felt snapped back even less, leaving a fuller crown?

Yes, same profile on mine. No metal plate is needed because you do not develop stretch marks. Trust me. No need to fib about it. Also the hat sprang back only when I did not let a long period of heat set the shape. On the second attempt, I let the stretcher get hotter, and then unplugged the tool and let the hat cool while still on the stretcher. It maintained the shape at this point. The key was the amount of heat. I now have an extra long oval hat. I need to point out though, that if I would have been stretching a high domed hat on this stretcher, the results would have been pitiful. That the profile of the stretcher was similiar to my hat helped out alot. I would have basically been trying not to just stretch the hat, but change the block shape as well. It would not have been a purty sight. These things work only to the point that they are similiar to the original shape of the hat. If you walked in with a hat that had shrunk in size, but was originally a tapered hat style, this sort of stretcher would wreak havoc on your original look. I don't think a real hatter would have used them if he was concerned with what he turned out. These things just provided a quick fix for folks that did not want to wait on a complete reblock. Fedora

[GCR]

It IS strange that no one else (aside from 3thoubucks and myself) have had these little marks on their Federations or Deluxes.

I think I never just saw them as stretch marks is all. I think it is just a matter of perception. I have seen indented areas in the place you are talking about, but never thought it had to do with a stretch. And remember, when I stretched out my own hat, they never appeared, not even on the sides where the gaps on the stretcher are. Plus, the hat stretches all over, not just on the sides.I think the stretch marks may be a misnomer. We are calling them that, when in fact they are not. Fedora

I stand corrected once again. I shall henceforth refer to the marks as "mysterious flat areas". I must confess, when I saw those mysterious flat areas on my Fed Deluxe back in '03, the thought that they were stretch marks of some kind never even crossed my mind. I'm still not convinced they are stretch marks, especially after the AB experiment did not yield the same results.

3thoubucks wrote:

GCR. my Regular Feds have fuller crowns than my Deluxe. As I said, I think the felt on the Deluxe retracts back more after stretching. Your front pinch doesn't look too high at all. I think maybe because your head is a little rounder aand bigger than than Ford's. No matter how much you beat on the hat with a baseball bat, Federation felt will always be thicker than the Raiders hat. It needs to be sanded thinner.

I think you're right about the felt thickness, although I can't bring myself to sand my Deluxe any thinner. I already gave it a once over with the fine sandpaper plus a shave to get rid of some of the longer hairs in the felt. That was a couple years ago. As for the front pinch, I think the only solution could be ironing the crown into the brim, but again, I don't think I can go that far, especially if it involves sewing sweatbands and ribbons back on. I can't sew to save my life. My only choice is to start over with a fresh hat that has the right block shape and felt thickness to begin with. I'm on the list for 3 AB's, but I don't think I could bring myself to abuse ANY of them just for the sake of making my hat look more "Cairo". I was planning on picking up an HJ from Todd's as well, but I wouldn't want to mess that up, either (I doubt I'll wear the HJ much, I'm pretty much just getting one to have one, since it's the original hat and all). In a few months, when I get my "Bargain" Rabbit AB, perhaps I can bring myself to give it the "Cairo" treatment. That would probably be the best hat to try it on. The right block shape, the right kind of felt, (same as the Raiders hat) and it will be fresh, with no shrinkage or taper. Hey Fedora, how thin is the felt on your Rabbit AB's? How does it compare with the Fed Deluxe?

-GCR

[GCR]

GCR,

i just crushed my hat yesterday and popped it back. i repeated this 3 or 4 times without much time to let it sit scrunched up and the bulbing and bowing is now quite prevelant in the crown. these feds respond quite nicely to distressing i must say. my fed and i thank you for the motivation/inspiration!

cheers!

Hey G,

How about some pics of your newly squashed Fed? According to 3thoubucks, his recently purchased Regular Federations had more space in the crown than his Deluxe, perhaps yours is the same way? And since your hat is far newer than mine, it's doubtlessly got no shrinkage or taper to speak of, I'm sure. Maybe your hat looks closer to the real SOC hat because of all this? Your hat already has the "turn", right? I'd love to see some pics, anyway!

-GCR

[Indiana G]

i'll squish it again for the....i think i lost count of how many times she's been flattened......and post some pics tonite. i think its looking pretty good.

[Fatdutchman]

Well, now that I understand what you all are talking about, yes, I have seen the "marks" on the three (with the fourth on the way) Akubra hats I have bought. It consisted of a "soft spot", that was maybe a bit flattish. These spots I found ONLY on the ribbon-bow side, and simply assumed it was a dent caused by stacking the hats up, with the hat above indenting the bow side... It went away quickly when steaming and bashing the hat.

GCR, I notice that your deluxe had the typical "too tall" height (in the pre-squished '03 incarnation), and in the squished up form, the crown height is noticeably shorter, and looks much better. Looks like about 5 1/8" total height before, and close to my "ideal" of 4 7/8" after.

Though I don't really want to do the SOC bash on my new Deluxe when it comes in (I don't even want to turn it...anything off center or asymetrical bugs me...I've tried, and just can't do it!!!), I believe I'll give it a good squishing to maybe get rid of some of the height and get the sides out some.

My problem when shaping hats is that even though the hat may be utterly untapered (or even with a reverse taper!) to begin with, when I put that top crease in, it pulls the sides in and tapers the hat. No matter what I do.

[Fedora]

My problem when shaping hats is that even though the hat may be utterly untapered (or even with a reverse taper!) to begin with, when I put that top crease in, it pulls the sides in and tapers the hat. No matter what I do.

Sometimes it just takes some practice. I place the thumb and last finger of my right hand on the top crease, fore and aft, and while holding it in place, I put my left hand inside the crown and open my fingers and thumb up to push out the top sides of the hat. If you steam the hat just a little, or wet it, this will help greatly. Then hold it in place(if you are usng steam) until it sets, or dries. Doesn't take long. Then you may have to repeat this a few times. I find also that crushing the hat down a few times aids in the taperless crease. I have even steamed the top of my hat and rapped it on the top with a wood ruler to get it to look good. As long as you don't oversteam the Akubra, you can't hurt the hat. Don't be afraid to play with the hat. The nature of some felt requires some work on getting a good Raiders look. Practice makes perfect. Fedora

[GCR]

Well, now that I understand what you all are talking about, yes, I have seen the "marks" on the three (with the fourth on the way) Akubra hats I have bought. It consisted of a "soft spot", that was maybe a bit flattish. These spots I found ONLY on the ribbon-bow side, and simply assumed it was a dent caused by stacking the hats up, with the hat above indenting the bow side... It went away quickly when steaming and bashing the hat.

Ah ha! Another eyewitness to the phenomenon of the "mysterious flat area" comes forward! I'd have to say, that the flat spot theory of hats being stacked seems like the most logical one so far.

GCR, I notice that your deluxe had the typical "too tall" height (in the pre-squished '03 incarnation), and in the squished up form, the crown height is noticeably shorter, and looks much better. Looks like about 5 1/8" total height before, and close to my "ideal" of 4 7/8" after...

I just used the ruler method on that pic of my deluxe when I first bashed it. Using the ribbon as a guide, the front pinch height measured out at approx. 5 1/4 inches. My Deluxe now measures 4 3/4 at the front pinch. Although squashing the hat (and all the other methods I used) did not cause this half-inch difference in height, that was from constantly reworking the pinch over the years, because I always thought my hat looked too tall (I still do, that's another reason I can't wait for my AB, with the 4 1/2 front pinch height already bashed into it from the get go). Of course, the height was effected in other areas due to the squashing, beating, etc. I put my hat through, mainly in the rear of the crown (causing reverse taper).

My problem when shaping hats is that even though the hat may be utterly untapered (or even with a reverse taper!) to begin with, when I put that top crease in, it pulls the sides in and tapers the hat. No matter what I do.

That's strange. It must be due to the block shape of the hats you're creasing, or perhaps even the stiffener in the felt. I had the same problem with my Fed Deluxe when I first got it. I kept the top dent shallow for months, until the hat softened up enough and I was able to drop it lower. Even then, it wasn't as low as it is now, AND, when I did lower the top dent, I had to push the tops of the side dents further towards the back of the crown in order to compensate and keep the sides straight. Perhaps once the felt becomes softer it will be easier to do? The right kind of felt on the right block shape might be the key here as well, as it seems dropping the top dent down low is no problem for the likes of an AB. My Fed Deluxe isn't as low in the back as I'd like it to be, but it's lower now that I sat on it and beat the heck out of it. Here you can see how shallow the dent was back in '03, compared to now:



-GCR

[Fatdutchman]

That is a so much nicer brown color than the standard Fed.!! Mine'll be here in a few days. Waiting as patiently as I can...

Bashing....I'm just not holdin' my mouth right, I guess (a Southern phrase...).

I've been messin' with my gray Fed. I whacked it a few times with a piece of wood, and I can see how even after a few smacks it will bow out a bit. Give it a good workout, and you could really get that bulb shape. I just want this one straight, though. I've wet the hat and got it into the shape I want it and it is sitting drying now. One side (the bow side) looks better than the other, but I think I can work it out and even it up. I can press out from the inside with my thumb and move the felt out some. I've been fairly successful at pushing the felt out and steaming it into place. I even managed to somehow knock about an eighth of an inch off of the total height! It's 5" total height now (at it's highest point on the "humps" above the rear ends of the front pinch dents). The front pinch height is about 4 3/4". This particular hat is nice and straight front and back, and even with a tight pinch, the front doesn't angle back very much.

[Indiana G]

one of these days, i'm gonna learn how to focus this darn camera!!!

GCR, here's my SOC bash.....work in progress.....

[GCR]

Lookin' good Indiana G! You can really see the mushroom shape forming nicely on the right, I mean, left, no right (NON-bow) side of the crown. That turned brim looks pretty floppy, too. I can't seem to get the front of my brim to cooperate with me lately. Nice work, anyway. I'd still love to see what someone can do with a hat closer to the original Raiders hat, like one of those vintage 70's HJ's we've seen Fedora post pictures of...the block shape and thin felt on one of those would probably be perfect for the SOC look, but then again, if anybody DID get thier hands on a vintage HJ like that, could they ever bring themselves to sit on it??? Personally, I'd have second thoughts. A nice rabbit AB, pounced thin, is probably the next best thing.

Fatdutchman wrote:

That is a so much nicer brown color than the standard Fed.!! Mine'll be here in a few days. Waiting as patiently as I can...

Those pics are a bit deceptive (though unintentionally). The color of my Fed Deluxe is not as light as it seems in those pics. While it is lighter than a standard Federation, the pics of the hat when it was new, were taken with a flash, which made it seem much lighter. The other pics (of the hat now) are closer to the true color.

-GCR

[s7eng]

My problem when shaping hats is that even though the hat may be utterly untapered (or even with a reverse taper!) to begin with, when I put that top crease in, it pulls the sides in and tapers the hat. No matter what I do.

I've been dealing with the same problem with my Reg Fed. I'm going to try the advice here and see if it works. I also have noticed that when I have tried the deeper top crease my head pops it back out when I put the hat on. I probably have too tall of head!

[Indiana G]

GCR,

my fed regular once it has been smushed and tweaked and played around with for hours on end, gets very soft and very floppy. i must hand it to akubra on this, the felt can be manipulated quite nicely and i can see why there is an overall concensus about how tough these things are.

s7eng, tightening the front pinch will taper a straight crown, but pushing the side bashes towards the back of your head should straighten it back up. i found that out playing with the akubra.

[s7eng]

Thanks for the tips Indiana G. I've had my Akubra for about 6 months now and I am constantly tweeking it. Probably about the time I get it where I like it I'll have saved my pennys for an AB.