Crown height?

[Fatdutchman]

Just exactly how tall is "The" hat crown supposed to be (finished height)? I see on different people's hats a slightly varying height. My own Akubra I think is just too tall...not just as an "Indy hat", but too tall to look right on my head. The finished crown height is right at 5" (perhaps a tad more, maybe 5 1/8"...you have to eyeball across the two humps and line up the ruler). The front at the pinch is about 4 3/4". This just "looks" too tall to me. I think a quarter inch shorter would be just about right. There's no way I can shorten the hat I have. The center crease is REALLY deep already, and almost touches my head. I couldn't make it any shorter without turning it into a C crown...Ugh! Does my thinking jibe with any of yours?

Can a hatter shorten the crown height?

By the way, It's 58 or 7 1/4, so it's "normal" size.

[Indiana G]

can i, can i steve?

crown height is approx 5 1/2" open and 4 1/2" finished on a 22 1/2" head. do i get a cookie fedora? earlier delivery on my rabbit AB? honorable mention?.....did i get it right?

[GCR]

can i, can i steve?

crown height is approx 5 1/2" open and 4 1/2" finished on a 22 1/2" head. do i get a cookie fedora? earlier delivery on my rabbit AB? honorable mention?.....did i get it right?

I think Indiana-G nailed it.

From the latest research, 4 1/2 front pinch height seems to be correct for the "Raiders" look.

Several recent threads have provided ample evidence of this. So Fatdutchman, if your hat is 7 1/4 (same as Ford's) and it has a front pinch height taller than 4 1/2, then I believe your hat may indeed be too tall.

As for shortening it...this remains a mystery to me. I'm sure a decent hatter could shorten the crown somehow. Or if your proficient with a needle and thread, you could take a page out of 3thoubucks book and remove the liner, ribbon and sweat, and then iron some of the crown into the brim, although this might cause the hat to tighten up some...3thou bucks could shed more light on this scenario.

-GCR

[Shiva]

You should be able to drop the crown a quarter inch with a little steam. If the crease touches your head you can steam a slight dome in it that won't turn it into a C crown. I am sure it will look much better that way than with it too tall

[Fatdutchman]

Well, I figured one of my problems was the width of the hat. It was too narrow for its height. With the center crease popped out, the sides looked good...they looked GREAT. But, instead of the top being flat, it is quite domed, with a "peak" in the center. Too much material. It doesn't just fold in, it "pops" in, and when it does, it ***** the sides of the hat in and makes it taper. Being someone who can't leave ANYTHING alone, I soaked the hat and pushed, and pulled, and stretched, and mashed, and there was nothing, Nothing, NOTHING I could do to crease the hat without pulling the sides in. At this point, I was rather ill, and I decided that maybe I could get the iron and shrink up this peak in the dome top and flatten in out and get rid of some of this extra material. You know what happened then. I shrunk the @#$% out of it. All the way around the sides about an inch down or so is tapered in. That d@m4 dome is unaffected though.... :evil:

Now, I am almost hatless! and really P.O.'d. I'm left with my gray Federation (which was MUCH flatter on top, and the sides stay nice and straight). I have two hats out now being reblocked and I am not-so-patiently awaiting their return.

The gray one, by the way, is about the same height (5" or perhaps slightly higher), and it does look too tall, though at least it's totally untapered (and even slighly bulb shaped!). I THINK I can shorten this one. The center crease is pretty shallow now. I can maybe get this one to look right. (NO heat this time!!! )

I have another gray hat (one of the hats being reblocked) that has a finished height of about 4 3/4" (at it's highest point). I always thought that this height looked just right...not only as the "Indy" hat, but just as a hat in and of itself. This one was VERY tapered, however, which spoiled the looks of the hat. It wasn't so much that the top was too small, but that the bottom was too wide! (the hat was too big). I'm having it resized, which will shrink the bottom, and should even it out nicely!

[hp]

... But, instead of the top being flat, it is quite domed, with a "peak" in the center. Too much material. It doesn't just fold in, it "pops" in, ...

I have exactly the same effect with my AB Deluxe.
Maybe some hatter can explain this phenomenon...

Cheers
HP

[Fatdutchman]

I've been doing some real studying here. I just sat down with Raiders on the DVD and a ruler in my hand. Doing my best to measure and work with ratios, and looking at the hat in every scene possible, I get a front pinch height of between 4 1/4" and 4 1/2". I personally think that the 4 1/2" is more accurate. Now, getting a good useable side view of the hat in the movie is almost impossible, but, I got a couple of barely useable shots. I got a total crown height on the side at about 4 7/8"...MAYBE 5". Definitely not over that.

I also got to looking at my remaining unmolested Akubra. It just looks much taller than Indy's hat, though the crown height is about 5". I think I have figured out much of my problem. The width of the hat. It's a matter of proportion. While the crown of this hat (and on the aforementioned screwed up one) were straight sided above the ribbon, from the top of the ribbon down, they were flared out. Picture a size 6 7/8 hat stretched out at the bottom to a size 7 1/4. That seems to be about what I have. Basically, the hat is not as wide as it should be and that naturally makes the nat narrower, and hence, look taller. The size 59 Akubra (which I have now sold) has a MUCH nicer appearance, even with the same 5" height. It is much fuller. The sides are straight from the bottom up. Unfortunately, it was simply too big for my head. The block for the two size 58's I recently got, which I once praised, I now curse! At first, I thought they looked good, now they drive me nuts.

Back to the drawing board...

I have things in motion, and it'll all work out in the end.

[Fatdutchman]

I already have two hats being reblocked, and will have this one done as well. She's already boxed up, in fact. Believe me, I had gotten it beyond hope as far as my hat shaping skills were concerned!

I will take photos of the gray hat. I now have it looking about as good as I can get it. The brown one looked pretty well like the gray one does now.

Jimmy Pierce is blocking my other hats and I may eventually have my remaining gray one reblocked as well....

Photos of the size 59 brown are already available.




Now, if only this one would have fit, I wouldn't be having this problem!

I still think it's about one eigth to one quarter inch too tall! This doesn't sound like much, but it can make a HUGE difference! I build 18th century flintlock rifles, and as little as 1/32" or even 1/64 of an inch too much or not enough wood here and there can make an immense difference in the overall appearance of the gun.

[Fatdutchman]

Yeah, well, like I said, I absolutely CANNOT leave anything alone. I HAVE to try to "fix" it, if I think it isn't just so. One of my compulsions...like washing my hands...

[3thoubucks]

Turning the hat takes taper out of the sides. ........ There's a gap between the base of the crown and the stitches that attatch the sweat band. You could shorten the front pinch height a bit by ironing that, without taking the sweat band out.

[Fedora]

For posterity's sake.










http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c225/ ... ORULER.jpg



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[BendingOak]

tone, very funny.


Steve, thans for posting these shots. Do you happen to have one showing how far back the side crease ( top of)should go?

[VP]

I've been wearing mine way too low.

[Kilgour Trout]

Wow...this seens crazy! When I measure my AB, my front pinch is almost a full inch higher than the 4.5 (at 5-5.), and the back is a full inch higher as well (4.5).
My question is quite simply...How am I going to deal with all this extra felt?
I can see getting the front down, but at the back I'm already getting a lip of extra felt puckering. And then theres the crown arch.

Argh...just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water
or in this case..When you thought you had the bash finally down.

Are we really, really sure this is the pinch height? Is there any way someone could do a side by side comparision? I just hate to muck around with things when there could be issues of photographic depth and proper measurement involved.

Awaiting sage advise...

Warm Regards
Kilgour Trout

[GCR]

Are we really, really sure this is the pinch height? Is there any way someone could do a side by side comparision? I just hate to muck around with things when there could be issues of photographic depth and proper measurement involved.

Awaiting sage advise...

Warm Regards
Kilgour Trout

Well, I'm no sage, not by a long shot, but I'd say we can be pretty sure those measurements are accurate. The only way they could be very far off is if the ribbon was really wider than 1 1/2 inches. Of course, for the hat to measure out at 5.5 front pinch, a full inch taller, you'd need the ribbon to be a 2 1/2 inch ribbon, which obviously isn't true to what we see on screen. Even 1 3/4 inch ribbon can be ruled out, as the other measurements of the hat, besides the pinch, that were done in other threads, all support a hat size of 7 1/4, which is what Ford's hat size apparently is. So with a 7 1/4 hat, and a 1 1/2 ribbon, all the other measurements add up. Did you get your AB back when Fedora was making them taller? Or did you specify a certain crown height yourself? I'm sure there must be a way for Fedora to shrink it down during a reblock or something, if you want the issue resolved. Then again, depending on your hat size, the larger proportions may be better for you, if your hat size is much larger than 7 1/4.

-GCR

[Kilgour Trout]

Hey GCR: Actually, I've got a wee noggin of only 7 (22) or 56.5 cms to be exact! . It's funny though...because when I first got the hat it seemed really tall (especially to my wife) but I got used to it and so did she. I think we'd feel a strange sense of loss now.

As for rebashing, If its a matter of steaming, I may take a crack at it but my Ole lid is just about due for a cleaning. Probably wouldn't need a reblock (though inevitable with the cleaning) due to the fact that I had Steve put so much stiffener in it, you could drop a concrete block on my head and not create one slightest bid of taper. I love it

I'm one of those weird guys who doesn't like floppy stuff. 8-[
Besides, being way up north in Canada, I can't afford to have a load of snow come sliding off my roof. Must be all the time I worked in a roof truss company. So..make mine a 4-12 pitch eh!!

Thanks again GCR.

Kilgour Trout

[GCR]

I've been wearing mine way too low.

Ah, yes, the "Seats of Cairo" look. Well done!

-GCR

[Erri]

I'm happy to notice that on my AB (reblocked by Marc) I creased it and by chance it's the same front height than the Raiders specs... amazing coincidence. Many told me that it was too low, muahah

Tone you're always funny but please... don't make me suffer seeing your hat so badly treated

[Shiva]

Thank you so much Fedora for giving an accurate measurement of the original Raiders hat!!!!!!
I can't be the only one here to notice that while this hat looked perfect on Harrison Ford that in most cases it doesn't look good on alot of the folks who have been striving to be screen accurate. Most people seem to have shaped their hats up to an inch or more too tall and it gives a cartoonish look. It just doesn't fit most peoples faces very well. With these more accurate dimensions you get a much more well balanced hat that I am sure looks alot better on the average wearer.

[Fatdutchman]

Lately, I've been finding that I'm just the opposite! It seems that I could use a SLIGHTLY larger hat for my large face...Not much larger, mind you, but just a tad bigger.... The more I fool around with them, the more I feel inclined towards the Akubra dimensions...Perhaps not quite as large as the Akubra, but still a bit bigger than Indy's.

Heads are like bellybuttons....everybody's got one...

[Fedora]

Here is an overlay of an AB and the original, courtesy of our local surveyor, Mr. Garrison.






I am certain of the measurements these days.

Kilgour, your hat was one of the early ones when I was still under the impression the hat was taller than what we now think(some of us). When you get a chance, perhaps after the 1st of the year, send her back and I will bring the dimensions down if you want. I was always bothered by the taller height of my early hats due to using the ribbon as the Rosetta Stone. It never panned out. Now that all of the studies have been done, I think it is fairly obvious what the height was. And it also jives with what I see on the film. We all went overboard for a long time, even when Lee Keppler once chided us for our desire of a taller hat. Lee was right-alll along. Fedora

[Fedora]

Steve, thans for posting these shots. Do you happen to have one showing how far back the side crease ( top of)should go?

John, I don't have one of those. Sorry. Regards, Fedora

[BendingOak]

Thanks for the reply Steve.

[Fedora]

Just thought I would mention this. On the above overlay, if the front pinch was dropped down just a bit, and then the front creases pushed in deeper to get a little more tilt on the front, voila'. Almost a perfect match. As most know, the deeper you put the front creases in, the more tilt you get. Fedora

[Fedora]

Steve, thans for posting these shots. Do you happen to have one showing how far back the side crease ( top of)should go?
_________________

Ah, we now have more ruler studies that show a variation in the different scenes. We need to save these if possible as these studies were long overdue IMHO.

[Kilgour Trout]

Wow Steve..these are great! I realized that there were differences but the number of them is quite amazing. Frankly, it makes you realize that you can really have "Your Own" Indy look while staying within certain perameters .

I'm going to be working on my test bed "Cat Scratch" Fed D to try a few of these measurements. Not to mention, trying the Old steam block technique.

Now where is that toilet seat??? and that corn pot!

Kilgour Trout

[Fedora]

Now where is that toilet seat??? and that corn pot!

Now that really cracks......er, makes me laugh!! Fedora

[BendingOak]

Steve, thanks very much for these shots. I think this is proof that not all the elements of the "raiders hat" were there at the same time. That we put all the elemenst together in our heads. that hat was so handle that the crease must have change ( even though slightly ).

[GCR]

Ah, we now have more ruler studies that show a variation in the different scenes. We need to save these if possible as these studies were long overdue IMHO.

I'll second that...these studies are an essential for all those out there striving for accurate specs on the Raiders hat.

It's amazing that there's about an inch difference in the depth (or length, or whatever) of the right dent between the Cairo hat and the Raven Bar hat, especially since it's entirely possible they were the same hat (look at the sweat marks on the ribbon...)

My Fed Deluxe has a right dent length of about 4 inches, any shorter and the side of the hat starts to taper. If the Raven hat and the Cairo hat are indeed the same hat, that might explain the deeper/longer dent. Perhaps after exposure to the extreme sun/heat of Tunisia, the hat had shrunken a bit, so when they got back to England to film some of the interiors, (after cleaning the desert sand off of the hat) they just poked in the right dent(s) a little to get the sides straight again.

Then again, we see Ford fooling around with the hat in between takes, maybe it was just unintentional?

-GCR

[Fedora]

Perhaps after exposure to the extreme sun/heat of Tunisia, the hat had shrunken a bit,

I think there was shrinkage, and is evident in the SOC hat. I mean, it looks like it has shrunk in particular places to me. On one of those pics above though, with a shorter front pinch, I believe the original brim break was farther down the crown, and our local surveyor butted the ruler up on the bottom of the ribbon, (which had rode up) thus giving us a shorter measurement.

Steve, thanks very much for these shots. I think this is proof that not all the elements of the "raiders hat" were there at the same time. That we put all the elemenst together in our heads. that hat was so handle that the crease must have change ( even though slightly ).
_________________

I agree fully. Fedora