Crown Ironed into brim?

[3thoubucks]

I'm so pleased with the results of lowereing my front pinch height by ironing the crown into brim in the front, I thought I'd have no problem finding evidence of the same in the Raiders hat. Most of us are aware of the gap between the ribbon and the crown transition in front , seen here. I thought the the old transition would be in front of this line, but 3 hours of reviewing the DVD and I couldn't find it. -Because that line IS it. LOOK at the slanted line under the ribbon, just to the right of the front pinch, below. That is the point where the ironing (Or whatever) shifted the transition dramatically. Obviously the ironing? was done before the hat was turned, thus it's off center. I've always noticed the "bird beak" was asymetrical. This explains why.

[Marc]

It takes quite a bit of time and pressure to make the brim break a straight 90°. If we assume that HJ at least did part of their hats back then by hand (which most hatter did "back then"), then we can assume that they also ironed the brim break into the felt by hand.

So perhaps the brim break just wasn't as perfect as we like them and thereby a little tapered (which isn't unusual). If that's the case, the ribbon would just slip up the crown a tiny bit and leave the brim break visible.

Now you might add that the "slanted line" is on the brim, but to me it looks rater to be the very end of the crown (because I think it's the brim break). The raised ribbon however leaves the optical impression that it's on the brim, but since it's only a 2D picutre, it's impossible to prove either one or the other theory.

However, a ribbon that slipped up the crown a few mm makes more sense to me, than first raising the ribbon and then ironing a new brim break into the felt. Of course the sweatband would have to be replaced as well...

Don't get me wrong: I admire you dedication, but sometimes - to me (personally) - it is as if your seeing things. At least you gave up the 6" open crown and oversized hat theory in one of your last posts. Perhaps one day, you'll come to the point where you simply agree with what Steve and I have said for years: the Raiders Fedora was an (accidentially) turned and heavily distressed, well fitted 5 1/2" open crown hat to start with

Regards,

Marc

[Indiana Croft]

One might say it's an obsession.

[Fedora]

One might say it's an obsession.
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Yes, he is obsessed, but so am I. And Marc, and a few others. 3M$ is thinking outside the box, and this ain't a bad thing. With that said, I have to agree with Marc. The ribbon just slid up when the tack points came loose, or when they ripped them loose when they tightened up the ribbon. I think that ribbon was cinched up at some point, for some reason.

When I install my ribbons on the Raider fedoras, I drop the sweat down and really cinch the ribbon tight. I think mine and Marc's ribbons are some of the tightest you will see on hats, as we try to pull them as tight as possible. When you turn the sweat back up inside the hat, this tightens the ribbon even tighter, to the point that it can change the sizing of the hat, just a little. This looks good, but we found out fairly soon that if you tighten the ribbon up like this, it wants to work its way up the crown, if you do not tack it into place, at many points around the brim break line. This is what I see on the original film hat. An upwardly creeping ribbon. Fedora

[3thoubucks]

Mark, Fedora, How do you explain this? The "90 degree break" line on the left side, shifts up suddenly on the right. How could it do that? Look at the b&w - there's a line on the brim, that just isn't there beyond little dark dash.

[Fedora]

If you are talking about the line up next to the crown, this looks to be a stress line brought about by pulling on the brim when you put the hat on. John at Mt Hatters recently addressed this at TFL. He was telling folks how to properly put on a hat that you want to stay on while in a wind. He says, put the hat on first on the front, as low as you need it to stay on, an then pull the back down. Not the other way around. To do so would be to cause exactly what you are seeing on the above pictured hat. It is caused by tugging on the brim, habitually. I am guilty of doing it the wrong way. With a felt like was used on the Raiders fedora, this would happen faster due to the lack of stiffnener and softness of the felt. Now, this is my opinion 3M$. It is logical, and it is something that hatters know about, or most of them. I did not know it, as I had never given it much thought until John made his post awhile ago. I wish you could see and play with the vintage HJ with the Raiders felt.(I just sold it to Pagey) It would be an eye opener. It just lends itself to all of these little nuances that drive us batty.
Nick emailed me this week after recieving the HJ and was amazed at the felt. He said, this is it!!! He could tell by handling the hat that all of those wonderful things we see on the film hat could be replicated by this hat. David Garrison saw it as well. Much of it has to do with the felt. That you can no longer find this stuff is a shame. Apparently whomever made it is no longer making felt. We can't find it-anywhere. It is totally different than anything you have ever seen-in hand. In fact, I have never seen this sort of felt in any American hat, new or vintage. That mystifies me. There is such mystery surrounding the Raiders fedora. It drove me nuts until I held in hand the right felt. Fedora

[Shawnkara]

I'd tend to agree with Steve and Marc. I get that a lot on my fedora; the exposed break where the ribbon creeps up. After pulling the ribbon off years ago to reconfigure it, I never bothered to tack it back down, except at the bow.

3K, most of what you're pointing out is an illusion caused by dust and other factors, especially the upward "jog" in that line. The dark spot seems to be a stain of some kind. The line looks like something else to me, too. I pulled the sweat out of my fedora long ago. Mianly I did it because I don't like sweatbands, but I also did it to save the hat. I'm really hard on this thing, and the stitching from the sweat was actually starting to tear through the crown, like tearing out a coupon along a perforated line. Part of what you're seeing in those stills looks like that same type of damage.

It's great that you put so much time into this 3K. I always look forward to your speculations and methods. I've used a few of them, too. But I think sometimes you set yourself back a bit by looking for where similar tricks were used on the Raiders hat. I SERIOUSLY doubt they were, at all. They would just not put that much thought and effort into that hat. They wanted it to look well-worn and believeable, but they did not agonize over intentionally creating every wrinkle, crease and bump we see in it. It's something that just happened. Using every trick and tactic up your sleeve to artificially create what we see in the screen hat is innovative. Trying to figure out what particular tricks were actually used is kinda spinning your wheels; there weren't any tricks such as wire in the brim, stuffed sweatband, purposely stiched pleat, etc. If these things help produce a screen accurate hat, great. But looking for these exact things happening on the original hat is kind of a waste.

The only "special" tricks I believe probably happened with the Raiders hat is the removal of the sweatband and liner. Sweatbands are uncomfortable, unless you've worn them in for constantly for months. This is especially irritating if you're not a "hat guy" and if you've noticed, Ford is not a "hat guy". The liner would go, because it looks funny without the sweat and it's just more useless bulk and weight. I know a lot of people do not believe the ribbon would have been tigthened, but it would HAVE to have been. Two reasons: removing the sweat would make the hat fit more loosely. Also, not often considered, HAIR LENGTH. Getting a haircut will affect the fit of a hat. If you look at most pre-production stills of Ford as Indy, he's still sporting the Han Solo cut. It's slicked back and tucked behind his ears. But the costume work was done, so it's safe to say his fittings were done with a much thicker head of hair. No one would have noticed any of this until they started filming and Ford realised the hat didn't stay on worth a darn. Simple solution, probably known by any prop guy that's had to adjust costumes on the fly: tighten the ribbon.

There's a third point, too. Steve said it, as well. A ribbon will creep up the crown easily if it's tight. And, (my speculation) the fact that it rode up also shows it was not tacked, i.e.: it had been removed.

[3thoubucks]

Whatever is going on, crown gets transitioned into brim in front, lowering the front pinch height, the sides of the crown aren't affected, so the top dent can still be deep. I've ironed my hat in front to get the effect- now my hat doesn't look too tall, even though the sides are the same height as before.

[3thoubucks]

I believe the gap between the bottom of the ribbon and the line that indicates 90 degree transition mark is the same width in the Raven hat as the Cairo hat. The arrow indicates the original crown to brim transition, and I can even see the line dimly. We're talking about a 1/4 to one third inch gap between the bottom of the ribbon and the crown break! (Swankara, look at the "Shoot them both" and "Snakes, why did it have to be snakes?" scenes, and you'll see the sweat band.)

[Shawnkara]

I agree with you there. It's the main problem I've had with EVERY Indy hat on the market. The Raiders crown/brim do not meet at a hard angle, as with any new hat you're going to find. There's a smooth, rounded transition going on there. Believe it or not, the closest hat in that one respect (and that one only) was the Stetson liscensed hat in the 80's. Off the shelf, the entire brim was flanged (is that the right term in this case??) down kinda like a pith helmet. If you curled up the sides and edge of the back, it looked like that. I wish Steve or somebody could block a hat with the brim flanged (??) down like that.

[Fedora]

Whatever is going on, crown gets transitioned into brim in front, lowering the front pinch height, the sides of the crown aren't affected, so the top dent can still be deep. I've ironed my hat in front to get the effect- now my hat doesn't look too tall, even though the sides are the same height as before.
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Exactly. That is what John was refering to as well. The SOC hat has lost the well defined brim break. I think it looks swell(been watching too many old movies lately) but a non Indy hat fan would see it as needing a rebuild. For all interested, a hat with no stiffener, or very little stiffener will lose the brim break easily with some wear and tugging on the brim, and especially if the hat gets damp at some point in time. As I said, much of the SOC look is due to the nature of that particular felt and how easily it could be distressed. Fedora