Browning Magazine Safety

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 1:48 am

I have been giving some thought to having Tip Burns disable the magazine safety on my high power. This safety prevents firing the weapon when the magazine is removed. Any thoughts regarding the pros or cons of it?

Just wondering,
Pyro

Merrick · Post by **Merrick** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 5:50 am

Pyro,
My question is why do you plan to have this done? Granted I have little to no expertise with handguns, but I can't think of why you would want the ability to only fire a single round. Would that mean you could only reload it though the ejector port too?

Michigan Smith · Post by **Michigan Smith** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 7:30 am

The long and the short of it is... it could be a useful feature in an extremely limited and highly unlikely situation, the ability to fire the chambered round while changing the magazine. The con is anytime you alter the firearm from the way it left the factory you are opening yourself up to the potential for liability should the gun be used defensively, that you will be made out ot be some reckless maniac who intentionally removed a safety feature from his gun. I personally would not do it. I had a H.P., and ended up selling it. If you want defensive pistol, buy something modern (Sig, Glock). If you want a time proven design thats Indy related, carry a S&W revolver (can't beat 'em). If you want the H.P. because it was Indy's gun, fine, leave it be the way it came. Any single action pistol is best left for the highly trained and practiced for defensive purposes. My final thought is if you haven't been able to resolve the situation in 12 shots, you have 1 left in the gun, and you are changing mags, you should probably running away or behind some good cover at this point anyways.

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:35 am

Interesting feedback, guys.

I bring this up as almost every website that discusses the BHP mentions this safety and how "useless" it is. M.S. raises some good points. My dad and I were looking at guns and he's thinking about selling a few from his collection to get a real FN High Power. So, all this talk got me thinking again about the 9mm. And, it's something new and Indy related to talk about in the gun world.

I already own a Glock & Kel-Tec as self defense guns. And, I have the S&W 1937 too.

Thanks for the input.
Pyro.

jkingrph · Post by **jkingrph** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:08 am

The magazine safety only prevents the arm from firing with the magazine removed. Removal will do a lot in getting rid of a gritty feeling trigger pull.
I had mine done with an aftermarket trigger sear, hammer along with a match grade barrel fitted by Cylinder and Slide out in Nebraska and the gun shoots much better than I can.

I have heard all the talk about liability and with a son who is an attorney does not think this alteration would make any difference.

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:13 pm

Although I don't have a Hi Power myself, I've read that the mag safety prevents the mag from completely falling out of the gun when you release the mag. IMO, this is a problem (although small) if you're using your Hi Power as a defensive gun.

As mentioned before, a big advantage of getting rid of the mag safety is a better trigger.

I also belive that any possible liability issue is very over stated on the internet. I honestly, don't think anyone is going to totally strip your weapon after a justified shooting just to see if you modified it. The only possible liability I see with removal of the mag safety is with an accidental shooting.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:19 pm

jkingrph wrote: I have heard all the talk about liability and with a son who is an attorney does not think this alteration would make any difference.

The problem is, a lot folks like to scream 'liability' if ANY gun goes 'bang', so anything you do won't be enough to suit them.

Regards! Michaelson

Arok · Post by **Arok** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:26 pm

J_Weaver wrote:Although I don't have a Hi Power myself, I've read that the mag safety prevents the mag from completely falling out of the gun when you release the mag. IMO, this is a problem (although small) if you're using your Hi Power as a defensive gun.

I don't own a Browning HP either, but if they are like the CZ-75B (they are a similar overall design) then they have a mag break (basicly a spring that causes friction against the maganize) that stops the magazine from falling out (which is very easy to remove from the CZ-75B.)

I would doubt the mag safety itself actually effects this and instead is probably something that blocks the firing pin unless a mag is inserted (I don't really know, the CZ-75B doesn't come with that "feature".)

carebear · Post by **carebear** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:01 pm

The mag safety on the Browning does impede magazines from dropping free. After all, it is the magazine pressing against the spring tension of the safety that "tells" the safety that a mag is inserted and allows the firing linkage to move.

Removing it will create drop-free mags and make the trigger pull much, much better. Anyway, it is not a "safety" in the sense that it prevents the weapon from firing accidentally, it simply disables firing with the mag out. Removing it increases functionality, it doesn't increase risk in any way, shape or form.

That is easy enough to show should it actually be brought up at a trial (which statistically it never will be; a good shoot is a good shoot - and I've taken LFI-1).

If you are depending on the mag safety to prevent an AD from a chambered round, you've already violated the bigger safety rules. An argument can even be made that removing the mag safety is common among practiced shooters because it increases trigger control, thus making your use of the weapon better and safer for all (except your target).

You don't need a gunsmith to do it either, I did my own. There's any number of manuals and online resources that explain how. It's just driving out a pin, as long as you have a decent pin punch set and a mallet it's easy.

Arok · Post by **Arok** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:29 pm

Ah, very intersting. I wouldn't call that a "safety" but then i am not trying to sell handguns.

carebear · Post by **carebear** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:19 pm

Many of the mechanical "safeties" weren't there because they were (are) necessary for safe handling and operation, they were designed into the weapons per government specifications.

When you are teaching a large number of potentially non-gun savvy individuals in a short amount of time it is easier to create a mechanical device rather than relying on good skills.

Many problems (accidents) arise due to reliance on those mechanical devices rather than good handling and following the basic safety rules.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:35 pm

Amen, carebear, and amen!

Regards! Michaelson

Arok · Post by **Arok** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:21 pm

Yep, and anything mechanical can and mostly likely will eventually fail. Training and care will always be the best safety.

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:51 am

My hi-power drops mags just fine, and it still has the mechanism in place. This is actually the first time I've ever heard people say the mag doesn't drop free because of this 'safety'. It really shouln't impede it at all, I've never experienced it on any single action auto. The reason usually stems from cheap aftermarket mags or even just too snug a fit for whatever reason, basically badly designed mags, like the earlier glock mags that didn't drop free.

Michigan, a normal hi-power holds 13 in the mag, 1 up the pipe,,so ya got 13 tries before only having 1 left.

Actually they make 15 rounders for them , too.

TR

carebear · Post by **carebear** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:00 pm

Anyone interested in HiPowers (or other handguns for that matter) should check out Stephen A. Camp's website. It's about as definitive as it gets.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com

This page directly addresses the mag safety and "drop free" issues.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/MagazineSafety.htm

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:14 am

Tex, how old his your Hi Power? If its got some mileage on it the parts my be worn enough that you don't have the issue.

carebear, good post! There is no replacement for safe gun handling.

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:12 am

years!

Can someone tell me where I can upload short digital videos?(for free)

TR

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:31 am

Tex;

Go to http://www.youtube.com and register.
I think that's the easiest way to share videos, and Google has a similar feature too.

Regards,
Swindiana

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:11 am

Here's a video of the problem you are having. This is an aftermarket mag in my highpower.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDJYdkjSmus

And here is a video of the factory mag. It drops free.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGcbJiRtRr4

My guess is that you are using aftermarket mags?

TR

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 3:51 pm

Tex, good vids! Since I don't have a HP yet, I can't speak from personal experience. Although a poor fitting mag can cause that problem, it is also documented that in some guns the mags don't fall free do to pressure from the mag safety. Stephen A. Camp is the HP guru, so I think its safe to take his word that this is/may be an issue. Perhaps you just got lucky?

carebear · Post by **carebear** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:17 pm

There have been changes to the mag design over the years. The original mags didn't have much spring tension when empty to propel themselves out. At one point a small spring was added to provide a "flip" effect. Newer mags may have refined geometries, stronger springs etc.

Because of Camp and my local HP guru, I also use exclusively new MecGar or factory (rebranded MecGar) mags but they still didn't drop free on my Israeli-contract (Belgian made) FN. (sixties era?) when I got it. There's a difference between quality and cheap aftermarkets.

Out came the mag "safety" and voila, smooth trigger and drop free. I imagine (as JWeaver mentioned) that just as one can get a "trigger job" by pulling the trigger a kazillion times, an older gun that is "worn in" might work itself smooth past some issues.

Havana · Post by **Havana** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:33 pm

I've got an old FN Hi Power that doesn't have this "safety" feature. I would classify the inability to fire with the magazine out as an idiot feature. Hi Powers used by the SAS in years past did not have this feature. It leaves you totally vulnerable when reloading. Keep in mind that you don't just reload a gun when it's completely empty. My military training taught me to reload or "top off" whenever an opportunity presents itself. Sometimes you also need to change your ammo type in the field for various reasons. I have a CWP and carry a gun everywhere I go. I change my ammo according to the environment. In short, there are a lot of reasons to remove the magazine besides the unlikely one of having already fired 13 rounds. This feature would also leave you vulnerable if you dropped the magazine and couldn't retrieve it or if the magazine somehow became jammed before it could clear the gun. Without this feature, you could still fire one shot, which is aways better than none, provided that the chamber was already loaded. If my Hi-Power had this "safety" feature, I would not feel that I could rely on it as primary defensive weapon.

IndyFlyer · Post by **IndyFlyer** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:02 pm

Actually they make 15 rounders for them , too.

My high power and its related hardware have been in storage for a few years so my memory is not exact, but have a couple of 'higher' capacity magazines as well, 30 rounders if I recall. Sticks out a fair bit below the handgrip, but looks formidable and would be great for the hoards coming over the hill. Must have been a pre-ban thing. I assumed they were a function of the gun's military background. I acquired the mags at a gun show several years ago, they shoot great.

I have not noticed any issues with my magazine safety.

Post by **Michaelson** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:30 pm

I remember those 30 rounds were available as after market items in the late 70's. You could get them for the Hi-Powers, P92 Berettas and Colt .45's. Some were real good (metal), and some real stinkers (plastic).

Regards! Michaelson

IndyFlyer · Post by **IndyFlyer** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:29 pm

Yeah, I've handled them all. Mine are decent metal, I've got a few of them, figured they would be going away for some reason or another. They weren't expensive as I recall, $20 or so. I believe that the high power was originally named 'high power' due to its 13 round capacity. 30 rounds is serious high power!

Magnum Jones · Post by **Magnum Jones** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:48 am

The only advantage I could see to disable the saftey feature is if it was the only firearm you owned and you lost the mag and need to use the firearm what ever the scenerio, you could still fire it if only one shot at a time.
I wouldn't do it for the fact if I'm putting money into my handguns I try to
upgrade to better parts such as tritium sights, or machine work in smoothing actions or adjusting trigger pull, or cryogenic tempering the barrel ect. The list goes on and on depending on your needs. Something that would increase the value. I think depending on the buyer it would take away from the value of the firearm to disable the mag saftey feature. You would be spending money to decrease the value, strictly my opinion.

carebear · Post by **carebear** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:15 pm

Magnum,

Unless it is a historically significant piece, there's no value change I've ever noted in my years in and around the industry. On such a gun replacing the sights or barrel would lower the value more than removing the mag safety.

It isn't really a "safety" feature and most serious defensive shooters end up taking them out as part of a trigger job. Also, it doesn't require gunsmithing to remove or install and isn't a permanant modification, so returning the gun to original condition can be done with a couple dollars in parts and 5 minutes work. Push out the little pin in the trigger and it's out, push it back in and it's like it was never gone. I've still got my parts floating around in my parts box and Numrich can get them for you in less than a week.

Magnum Jones · Post by **Magnum Jones** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:53 pm

carebear wrote:Magnum,

Unless it is a historically significant piece, there's no value change I've ever noted in my years in and around the industry. On such a gun replacing the sights or barrel would lower the value more than removing the mag safety.

It isn't really a "safety" feature and most serious defensive shooters end up taking them out as part of a trigger job. Also, it doesn't require gunsmithing to remove or install and isn't a permanant modification, so returning the gun to original condition can be done with a couple dollars in parts and 5 minutes work. Push out the little pin in the trigger and it's out, push it back in and it's like it was never gone. I've still got my parts floating around in my parts box and Numrich can get them for you in less than a week.

Like I stated thats my opinion. And it is a safety feature designed to not let the firearm fire mainly when cleaning.
You seem to know more than the average person on firearms. But I see alot of people spend alot of money on things that are simple ( to me anyway)
Most people I know that have handguns cant even field strip a 1911, and do not even attempt to work on firearms.

Take a firearm in to trade or sell that has been changed (even by adding upgrades) and they will try to beat you to death on the price. Or better yet buy a left handed long gun, special order cost more. Trade it in. Its left handed no one wants it worth less money.

carebear · Post by **carebear** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 1:17 pm

True enough. I never understood that "I don't know how to disassemble it" mentality. The first thing I do with an unfamiliar gun (even other people's guns left momentarily unprotected

) is to take them apart and see how they work.

And I agree on the gun stores issue. "Custom" work, that really individualizes a gun to a certain person may lower (or not add) value, but the first thing most folks DO is put on nite sights. That's pretty much a factory item any more. Given two identical used guns, the one with nitesights, or the Bar-Sto barrel, or the quality trigger job will go out the door first. (again, except if it is a collectible)

Indiana Texas-girl · Post by **Indiana Texas-girl** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:02 pm

Hey what's happened to Pyroxene? I haven't seen him around in a looooooong time.

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:00 pm

Just bumping this up ;-)

I just removed the mag safety from my newest Hi power. Did it myself (I regularly work on my guns). Easy peezy, *disclaimer* though I don't advise anyone from doing it at home without advanced firearm knowledge.

The trigger was just too gritty with the safety in it and mags would just NOT drop free (my last one had no problems), so I went ahead and did it. It's relatively minor disassembly of the trigger group,,took about 15 minutes. Now the action is smooth and nice. Completely different animal! (and it'll shoot without the mag in) ;-)

TR

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:30 pm

A few pics. The safety and spring is in the little clear pouch.

[img][img]http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/170/magsafety001sw9.th.jpg[/img][/img] [img][url=http://img206.imageshack.us ... .jpg[/img][/img][/url]

[img][img]http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/5229/magsafety003xg9.th.jpg[/img][/img] [img][url=http://img206.imageshack.us ... .jpg[/img][/img][/url]

TR

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:39 pm

Indiana Texas-girl wrote:Hey what's happened to Pyroxene? I haven't seen him around in a looooooong time.

I have been SOOOOO busy. I feel I owe so many people here explainations to the question, "So, where you been?"

Thanks for thinking of me.

IndigoJuliet · Post by **IndigoJuliet** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:07 pm

On the brownings that I have fired never had a mag safety or it was disabled, so I never noticed.

One thing about drop free mags during WWI they made an attempt to make you look after the magazine, eg not drop it in the mud and lose it. So Mags did not drop free on some pistols or had to like on the HKP9 pulled out in a certain way. Not good for a stress ful mag change situation.

there are some advantages to a mag safety depending on how it works.
But in my experience, the biggest safety is your head and fingers.

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:16 am

Pyroxene wrote:
Indiana Texas-girl wrote:Hey what's happened to Pyroxene? I haven't seen him around in a looooooong time.
I have been SOOOOO busy. I feel I owe so many people here explainations to the question, "So, where you been?"

Thanks for thinking of me.

BILL! Where have you been man! WE MISS YOU! I'm so pleased you're not dead!

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:30 am

Who WAS that masked man?

Regards! Michaelson