Todd's jacket

Toldog07 · Post by **Toldog07** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:10 pm

does anyone have one of these yet? i thought he said they would be arriving in time for halloween?

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:34 pm

Nope, not a word.

Regards! Michaelson

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:07 pm

Things are running behind as usual. It looks like it will be a few more weeks. We got held up waiting for me to design a label. They're at the label mfg now and are nearly done. Now the labels have to go off to the factory to be sewn in and we're done.

Toldog07 · Post by **Toldog07** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:13 pm

what does the label say?? got a picture of it?

PETER · Post by **PETER** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:01 am

Label 'GENUINE WESTED LEATHER RIP OFF'
Made cheap in India. Sold dear to Indyfans.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:09 am

OUCH!!!

Those are some surprisingly HARSH words right there.

PETER · Post by **PETER** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:34 pm

I know kinda childish I suppose, but yet again we have someone saying he can make a better copy of my jacket than I can.
This man originally approached me to supply him wholesale but said I was to expensive. He openly boasts that if he cannot get it from the original supplier at the right price he will copy it and sell it.
Further more he has used the COW to promote his creation.
He would not pay me more than $150 so work his mark up out for yourself.
Cheers and apologies
Peter

Do you like my picture, I am a bit like indy.
I find the treasure ( My Indyjacket) which people want but when I look over my shoulder everyone is trying to steal it from me.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:48 pm

that avatar is awesome peter! yes, i too considered getting one of todd's jackets. i have yet to be disappointed by any of his work. the only thing i could not get over is the whole S, M, L, XL thing. wested's are definitely a STEAL for made to measure leather jackets.

i've only seen one other place in vancouver that made customizable leather but they were going at around $800 to $1000 a pop!.....thats about 5 or 10 english pounds ???

Captain D · Post by **Captain D** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:14 pm

Yea, I like your animation there Peter, pretty wild and it definitely is an attention getter!

Kindest Regards,
Captain D

GoneSolo · Post by **GoneSolo** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:17 pm

agent5 wrote:OUCH!!!

Those are some surprisingly HARSH words right there.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

Ripper · Post by **Ripper** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:55 pm

But he is right.....

CairoIndy · Post by **CairoIndy** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:25 pm

Peter,don't you own(and love) an AB?-a genuine "Herbert Johnson rip off " by your critiria?..come on!,you've had free advertising for years on COW for your jackets..every 'I love my Wested' and 'Peter is God' post is free advertising for your company.Let's not forget you run a business,you make copies of a film jacket that you didn't design,you made from Nadoolman's specs paid for by Paramount pictures.I'm not knocking your jacket,it's a fine product but according to your standards Magnoli,Fedora and many others who make excellant copies should all pack up and go home.I happen to disagree.Personally,I love choice, and competition( in business) can only be a good thing both for the customer and for all businesses concerned,it ups the game,and improves the product-for instance,TODDS leather is fantastic-it's spot on for Raiders,I don't care if it comes from new Zealand,India or outer Mongolia if it looks like the Raiders jacket-and it does!.

McFly · Post by **McFly** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:36 pm

...Actually Peter did design the jacket. Even if Nadoolman gave him a general description of what she wanted, he went and designed it.

In Christ,
Shane

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:44 pm

IndyMcFly wrote:...Actually Peter did design the jacket. Even if Nadoolman gave him a general description of what she wanted, he went and designed it.

In Christ,
Shane

Exactly!

CairoIndy who rattled your cage? No one, allows as much leeway or gives as much choice as Peter. He truly is a gentleman. I don't blame him for being hurt.

As for Todds jacket the jury is out, we haven't had a single one to a customer yet.

I think Peter should do a IndiaIndy* at £130 NO OPTIONS, standard sizes, cheap leather too. That'd put the cat amongst the pigeons.

*©2006 Kt Templar.

CairoIndy · Post by **CairoIndy** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:16 pm

IndyMcFly wrote:...Actually Peter did design the jacket. Even if Nadoolman gave him a general description of what she wanted, he went and designed it.

How do YOU know this?,where is Peter's credit on Raiders(or any of the films?).What did Nadoolman do then?,twiddle her thumbs?..forgive me for thinking that the Costume designer would actually design the costumes for a film..Peter makes jackets from costume designers specs.What rattled my cage KT?,well,maybe I don't like hypocrisy..Peter wears an AB..that's my point-he's fireing off against TODD,calling him a rip-off merchant, but Fedora's doing the same thing!.Does he think we should we all throw away our AB's and wear only HJ's?.Personally,I think TODD has been treated appallingly here since revealing this new jacket and yet Fedora and Magnoli have been doing basically the same thing for years and are almost treated like gods!.I think there's plenty of room for another jacket and TODD's jacket will succeed(or fail) on it's own merits-given half a chance.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:48 pm

CairoIndy, there's no need for personal attacks or name calling. If you have an issue with any of our vendors just vote with you wallet. I know I have, several times.

Post by **Michaelson** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:40 pm

Just to stick my nose in here for a minute, Cairo....in case you don't remember, or didn't know, Peter's AB was a gift from the members of this forum. He did not purchase it.

You also need to learn about subcontractors in regards to films. They don't GET mentioned on film credits. The main costume designer does, and even THAT is a loose definition. Many times they 'suggest' what should be worn by a character, but the final design work is turned over to the contractor/subcontractor that actually MAKES the costume, and if they agree with THEIR final design, sign off on it. They get the credit, and are on record with their original drawings, but 9 times out of 10, it's the actual costume MAKER whose design is seen on screen. The designer still gets the credits.

I know this for a personal fact, as my son-in-law designed and hand made every piece of armor worn by the villian in 'A Knight's Tale'. He had to make 3 complete suits of armor for the man, and 2 for his horse. He was the subcontractor to the costume company, as he was the only armorer who was a coin carrying mastersmith in the craft who could make detailed armor for closeups. The suits worn for the far shots and small scenes were cobbled together from old movie gear, but the really detailed stuff had to be made new, and there are very few armorers left that can do such work.

Long story short, it's his design and full creation you see on screen when you watch the movie and see the villain in his full outfit in the last climatic jousting sequence. William's name is no where to be found in the credits....but the folks who contracted with him to DO the work is all over the thing.

That's the nature of the business. That's the nature of Peter's business. Case in point? Watch any or all of the Harry Potter movies, or Star Wars for that matter. Wested Leather or Peter Botwright's name appears no where....and yet almost every piece of costume worn by the casts were designed and made by Wested Leather, but with direction of a Hollywood costume designer whose name DOES appear. All Union and contract agreements. It's not always fair, but who said Hollywood was fair?

Ok, carry on.....

Regards! Michaelson

Toldog07 · Post by **Toldog07** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:01 pm

geez i didnt mean to start all this

i was just wondering what his tag would look like because i remember he was having trouble deciding. Personally, im a Wested man myself and Peter's jackets are great.

As for Todd, if he wants to make jackets, then go for it, if people object to that then just dont buy his jacket...like me

orb · Post by **orb** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:32 am

Can any admin please close this thread?
I think we had enough bad blood here..or?
There's also another thread open about Todd's jacket.
viewtopic.php?t=18868

Greets

orb

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:57 am

I don't think it should be closed. Debate is what a forum is for. As long as it stays civilized.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:46 am

Can any admin please close this thread?
I think we had enough bad blood here

No offense, but Strider is exactly right. Your post seems really selfish since there are other members here besides yourself. I find it VERY disheartening when members attempt to be mods as if we don't have any. The easiest thing for you to do is to simply ignore this thread if it's too much for you to handle and let the rest of us who can accept more than one point and one side of debate to get at it.

This is in NO way a personal attack on you Orb as I've posted several times on this same subject before to other members who took it upon themselves to ask the mods to close down a thread that WAS NOT EVEN THEIRS. Had you started the thread, I'd think differently about it.

I hope my post does not get this thread closed as it would defeat my purpose. But, that's up to 'the mods'. Don't forget it either.

Toldog07 · Post by **Toldog07** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:16 pm

agreed!

Post by **Mike** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:56 am

Alright Agent5, I've had it, this has gone on long enough.

.... sorry just trying to throw in a little humor to lighten the load.

No, there's nothing here yet to close anything down. Though I do ask that CairoIndy watch himself with any personal attacks. Same goes for Peter, and no, we don't all treat him as 'god'. Though he has more right to state his opinion, he did back off from his first post. As long as cooler heads prevail and we can keep this from becoming 'Jacket Wars part 2" it'll be alright to leave this be.

For now.

So lets keep it civil.

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:51 am

Sorry, Peter. Enough lies. Here is the last e-mail I got from Gerry regarding the last jacket order I placed with you:

From: Wested Leather
Sent: 03 December 2003 2:28 AM
To: 'toddcoyle'
Subject: RE: Order number 3135

Dear Todd

I have spoken to peter and he is willing to give you a discount of $10
per jacket. Please bear in mind that we charge £165.00 per jacket and
the dollar rates do vary and I suggest you may wish to address your
pricing structure.

I hope this is agreeable to you.

Regards Gerry

Here is my reply, which is the last correspondance you had from me:

From: Todd Coyle [toddcoyle@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Tue 12/9/2003 8:58 AM
To: wested leather
Subject: RE: Order number 3135

Gerry,

Thanks for your reply! Regarding the discount, I'm afraid $10 does not allow me to "break even". I don't feel I can mark up your jackets because, although they might be worth more, there are those few Indy fans who would notice this and regard it as an attempt on my part to overcharge customers. Although this is a small group, I don't want to make enemies with them, either.

Perhaps in the future Peter will feel inclined to either raise his prices to allow him to "wholesale" jackets to vendors like me, or offer a larger discount to allow me to cover the costs of transfering the money (it cost $9 per jacket just for the currency conversion) and corresponding with customers. Meanwhile, I won't be able to offer this service on my website.

Thanks again!

Todd Coyle

My apologies to COW for referring to you as a "small group". I didn't know back in 2003 just how large a group it was and I certainly wouldn't refer to it today as a "small group", especially not in importance to Indy fans.

There are the facts, Peter. I hope that jogs your memory. Please stop the lies about $150 jackets, my "boasts", etc. None of it happened. In this country we call that "slander" and I would appreciate an apology.

I have taken care to be nothing but complimentary toward you and your product.

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:35 pm

what does the label say?? got a picture of it?

Here you go. I wanted to do something vintage-looking, but not too fanciful or "on the nose" (like a name directly from the movie). I hope you like it. (ignore the white space)

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:38 pm

Where did the 'Pine Mountain Club' come from?

Regards! Michaelson

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:02 pm

thats a handsome label todd. any correlation to 'lucky brand' jeans? thats what i first thought when i saw it.....kind of funny in a strange way: my favourite hat (more than my felt hats) is my lucky brand baseball cap!!!

randystokes · Post by **randystokes** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:03 pm

Michaelson wrote:Where did the 'Pine Mountain Club' come from?

It's a fancy way of saying "Near Bakersfield."

Randy

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:39 pm

It's a fancy way of saying "Near Bakersfield."

Good one! That's my actual address (it's listed on my website). We're in the mountains about 40 miles north of LA. Our little town has a population of about 1,500. Most of the working-age residents commute to LA or Santa Clarita from here. In California (like most of the West) once you get outside the metro areas, things become VERY far apart.

But it is worth the drive. Housing is affordable, the scenery is beautiful, and we get four seasons (including snow).

If you're ever going by, stop in to visit!!!

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:43 pm

Puppetboy wrote:...... and we get four seasons (including snow).

So do we! One week of Spring, one week of Fall, all the rest either in the 90's with humidity of 100%, or freezing our tailfeathers off.

Come on over and see US!!!!

Then again, maybe not!

HIGH regards! Michaelson

randystokes · Post by **randystokes** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:51 pm

Michaelson wrote:
So do we! One week of Spring, one week of Fall, all the rest either in the 90's with humidity of 100%, or freezing our tailfeathers off.

High praise indeed! You must work part time for the tourist bureau there. With recommendations like that, you'll be overwhelmed with visitors. (Or, maybe just whelmed . . .)

Randy

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:33 pm

You got it!

Regards! Michaelson

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:43 pm

Puppetboy wrote:In this country we call that "slander" and I would appreciate an apology.

*ahem*

Slander is spoken! In print, it's libel.

Sorry, had to trot that one out just to lighten the mood a bit!

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:07 pm

It doesn't look vintage to me.

Dr._J · Post by **Dr._J** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:17 pm

I think the design looks vintage but the colors are a little bright. If it was muted somehow (black type on an off-white or tan background) it may look a little more vintage. It's clever though. REALLY looking forward to seeing the final product!

Captain Ron Solo · Post by **Captain Ron Solo** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:23 pm

Strider said:

Slander is spoken! In print, it's libel.

Sorry, had to trot that one out just to lighten the mood a bit!

Aw, Strider, you beat me to it!

JKL
Ron

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:22 pm

Mr. Jameson, is that you?

D'oh! I should have known that. I used to be a grammar teacher.

Captain D · Post by **Captain D** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:05 pm

I like Todd's label...it has a cool 1930-ish' feel to it

.

Kindest Regards,
Captain D

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:03 pm

randystokes wrote:
Michaelson wrote:Where did the 'Pine Mountain Club' come from?
It's a fancy way of saying "Near Bakersfield."

Randy

I thought it was some cheap Irish whiskey.

randystokes · Post by **randystokes** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:33 pm

J_Weaver wrote:
randystokes wrote:
Michaelson wrote:Where did the 'Pine Mountain Club' come from?
It's a fancy way of saying "Near Bakersfield."

Randy
I thought it was some cheap Irish whiskey.

No, but if you live in Bakersfield long enough (I lived there for 16 years and still visit annually), you'll want lots of cheap Irish whiskey.

Randy

Gater · Post by **Gater** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:25 pm

Perhaps in the future Peter will feel inclined to either raise his prices...

am I the only one who caught this?

ummmm...let's not encourage vendors to RAISE prices!

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:30 pm

Gater wrote:
Perhaps in the future Peter will feel inclined to either raise his prices...
am I the only one who caught this? ummmm...let's not encourage vendors to RAISE prices!

I thought that was amusing: please put your price up so resellers can have a nice fat margin.

And therein lies the meat of this entire matter.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 7:48 am

Seems I'm a bit late here, but since Adventurebilt Hats was dragged into this discussion, I would like to tell my thoughts on the subject too.

The "Genuine HJ rip off" would most probably NEVER ever have happened, if HJ had offered the same services as Peter does!!! - But instead they (HJ) turned around as arrogant, overpriced and CERTAINLY not improveable snobs, from which you could either buy what THEY considered to be THE hat or go and "play with the other kids". So, in order to get a high quality and screen accurate Indy Fedora, people had to take it into their own hands. Or do you honestly believe, that Steve and I would be making hats, if you could buy an HJ and chose from half a dozent of felts, in various browns and on which you could specify exactly how you'd like the bow to look or what scene the hat should be creased after etc. etc. etc. - Because that's what Peter is offering here. And that for a real bargain!

Now, if someone would come and ask me to make the hats (that I hardly make anything on as it is already) for even less, so he could fill HIS pockets and then after I turn him down, he turns around, copies my hats (or rather my block shape, which differs from HJs to better match my felt, so it IS my design) and have them copied cheaply in India, guess how I would feel about that. How would YOU feel about that?

-Granted, competition improves the product. No question. But to have an existing product copied, just to fill your pockets is under the belt line in my book.

Now why would I still buy for example Indy boots from Magnoli? - Because I believe he's offering something that Alden does not (made to measure, cardovan etc.). And - even though I doubt it - it might just help improve the original makers product.

Flightsuits helped improving the standards of todays Indy jackets as well IMHO, so there was actually a DEMAND for the G&B jackets and they still offer some details that Wested don't (which some like and others don't), but they are DIFFERENT (in opposite to just being cheap - which they aren't).

Then why doesn't Peter just have HIS jackets made cheaply in India? - Because he takes a great pride in a craftmanship that he can control while it's being made. The same reason why Steve and I chose to make every single hat ourselves with our bare hands, rather than just outsource it. I pull my hat for that (literally)!

Regards,

Marc

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:22 am

Marc wrote

Now, if someone would come and ask me to make the hats (that I hardly make anything on as it is already) for even less, so he could fill HIS pockets and then after I turn him down,

The man wanted to buy wholesale.
Wouldn't you give to somebody a better price if he would buy large quantities?

Isn't this the way it works?

Post by **Jens** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:31 am

I wanted to stay out of this discussion, and still want to.

So, just a thought:

If you make something for a quite special clientele of customers and there is a new competitor who wants to buy a large quantity of your product to sell it to the very same clientele, but would pay less than you get if you sell it directly to the customers ... why should you do this?

Again, I don't want to offend anybody. Just a thought. But I have to admit, I'm an academic and I hardly have any clue of economics.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:36 am

PLATON wrote:Marc wrote

Now, if someone would come and ask me to make the hats (that I hardly make anything on as it is already) for even less, so he could fill HIS pockets and then after I turn him down,
The man wanted to buy wholesale.
Wouldn't you give to somebody a better price if he would buy large quantities?

Isn't this the way it works?

That is exactly the point, on UK made jackets at the price Peter sells them, there is not enough margin for there to be a middle man. It's just not worth his while to sell at a lot less than he sells to us.

Note the price on the US Wings Imports and the Protocol Imports... $199 seems the correct price point for an import jacket from all the evidence. $149 may be break-even.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:41 am

Kt Templar wrote:the price on the US Wings Imports and the Protocol Imports... $199 seems the correct price point for an import jacket from all the evidence. $149 may be break-even.

From what I've been told, KT, you're dead on target.

HIGH regards! Michaelson

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:50 am

...but would pay less than you become if you sell it directly to the customers...

Jens you've translated "bekommen" into "become"... It should be "get"

Still you described exactly what I wanted to say.

Regards,

Marc

Post by **Jens** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:56 am

Dang, I'm in hurry (just leaving for an archaeological evening lecture about a great find) and - of course - fell for this "false friend".

Thanks for pointing this out, buddy. Just changed it!

Arok · Post by **Arok** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:36 pm

I have always thought we are very lucky Peter offers such a fine custom made jacket for so little money. I am sure he makes what he considers an acceptable amount from each one, but he has always said he sells them to us so cheap because we are getting a wholesale price. That means if someone wants to resell them he can't really lower the price(as in thier correspondance with Todd).

Of coarse, that only left Todd with two options as well, sell the Wested at a price with a retail mark-up, or look somewhere else for a cheaper version. I honestly think marking up the Wested would have been a better choice (he would still have been offering quicker, cheaper, less hastle shipping to us in the U.S.), but that is his choice, and he managed to offer a jacket at a retail price close to Wested's wholesale price.

We will just have to see how the jacket turned out. Though for my money... can't beat a custom made jacket from the original designer.

~Arok