The new Federation

Fatdutchman · Post by **Fatdutchman** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:33 pm

Ah, I got two new Federations today (took less than two weeks to get here). One gray, one "mid-brown" (gee, I wish they were a tad lighter in color!). These two (size 58 ) have a MUCH nicer shape than my earlier 59. Not only do they come closer to fitting my head, BOTH of them have the "bulb" shape (COOL!

). The brown one is a bit stiffer than my earlier brown one (which is good. As far as I'm concerned, the stiffer, the better!). The gray one has not come out as nicely as the brown one. While the brim is fairly stiff, the crown was really soft. I had a difficult time getting the pinch and crease to stay where I wanted it (not enough stiffeners?). It's O.K., though. I'm leaving the gray one with the curled up rear brim, though I need to work on it some more still. Both of these hats do not have nearly as much material in the top of the crown as the larger hat has. The 59 has a really deep crease, which will just about touch the top of my head. The new gray one, has much less material, and the crease is rather shallow (which is fine with me). The new brown one is about halfway between the other two, and is about fine.

Well, here's the shape. I am REALLY pleased with the way this hat "turned" out. Along with the cool "bulb" shape, I seem to have stumbled upon just a little bit of the "Turn" (though it seems to be "backwards"....

). Quite by accident. I have a somewhat long oval head, and my face is crooked. My eyes, nose and mouth are about a half inch off to the left side of my head (which I never noticed, until I started fooling around with hats and trying to get the pinch centered!). I steamed it and mashed the sides in to fit the shape of my head and got it all set on, and found that lo and behold, the bow was slightly forward of my left ear, and the bow side of the brim is flatter, while the right side is curved more normally (it is only rather slight, and it doesn't show well in the photos, but in your hands, you can see it). Pulling the hat into the longer oval shape caused the sides to make that forward leaning arch that you see on Indy's hat in the side view. The hat is crooked in every way, but looks just about right! It's not "perfect", nor "screen accurate", I'm sure, but it sure suits me!

And, yes, I dress this way every day!

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:09 pm

that looks quite sharp on you sir!

WinstonWolf359 · Post by **WinstonWolf359** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:11 pm

Great looking hat! Thanks for sharing pics!

Every time I see another gray Federation I get closer and closer to ordering one myself.

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:32 pm

I like the way they turned out, but honestly, I can't tell the difference between the grey and brown hat.

Antone · Post by **Antone** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:10 pm

Strider wrote:I like the way they turned out, but honestly, I can't tell the difference between the grey and brown hat.

Yeah, many of us have the same problem apparently

In all seriousness though, that's an excellent bash you put in there fatdutchman! It looks very Raiders, better than I would expect of a federation. Nice work!

Antone

Farnham54 · Post by **Farnham54** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:05 am

Strider wrote:I like the way they turned out, but honestly, I can't tell the difference between the grey and brown hat.

I sure hope michaelson pulls up in his classic automobile soon so I can get dibs on a spot underneath it...

Dutchman--it looks fantastic on you. Both hats fit very well, and it's got just enough variation to be dressy but still uniquely 'your hat'.

Cheers
Craig

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:32 am

Farnham54 wrote: I sure hope michaelson pulls up in his classic automobile soon so I can get dibs on a spot underneath it...

Cheers
Craig

Plenty of room under here, Craig....plenty of room!

Regards! Michaelson

Fatdutchman · Post by **Fatdutchman** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:38 pm

Thank you, thank you. All three the same hat. I didn't take photos of the gray one.

The gray one doesn't have as much of a "rakish" look as the brown one does. The front doesn't have as much "point" from the pinch, and the back is more straight, rather than ever-so-slightly cocked back as on the brown one.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:02 pm

That is one great looking Akubra!! You got a winner with that one. My experience with them is the 58(my size) always had a more tapered block than the 59(Michaelson's size) You have found the opposite with yours. I did some work on Michaelson's Federation a few years ago and noticed right off, his block on his hat was really good. Superiour to mine if going for the Raiders look. Yours as pictured is excellent. Fedora

WinstonWolf359 · Post by **WinstonWolf359** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:14 pm

I didn't take photos of the gray one.

Whoops, is my face red!

Could have sworn that was the gray one, not the brown...

Still, great looking hat.

Fatdutchman · Post by **Fatdutchman** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:33 pm

Well, their brown isn't very far from being dark gray! In a certain light, I can't tell them apart from any distance, even sitting side by side!

I am really pleased with the way this one came out.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:17 am

The 58 may be giving more of bulb shape than the 59, because it's getting stretched lengthwise more, because it's smaller.

Solo4114 · Post by **Solo4114** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:40 am

Yeah, that's definitely the brown one. I got mine probably a week before you and it turned out pretty similar. I'll post pics once my girlfriend uploads the shots from her digital camera.

I'm pleased as punch with my Federation. I ended up giving my 59 to my dad, who has worn it to work several times already and gotten compliments. He owns a few other fedoras and, like me, has noticed how much BIGGER the Federation is than typical fedoras you see nowadays. This is a heck of a hat and it really stands out. Not in a bad way, either. It just has a real presence to it, but looks very "real", not like a pure affectation or something.

I'd love to see pics of the grey, as I've been considering getting one myself (along with a black one).

VP · Post by VP » Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:00 am

The crown shape looks just like my 2½ years old Fed. Nice.

prairiejones · Post by **prairiejones** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:03 am

Looks really good. One of the best Federations that I have seen.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:50 am

I have asked Ron at hatsdirect to check with Akubra to see if they were selling Akubras to HJ during the late 1970's and early 80's. It would be a gas if we discovered that the Austalian model mentioned by Deborah was actually an Akubra, and not an HJ. Since I know for certain that HJ sold Stetsons once upon a time, it is not a leap to think they also sold Akubras along with their own brands. I can imagine the scenerio now. The first film hit it big, and Swales was aware of it. The next film starts up and Swales makes a business decision to make sure the HJ brand is in this film and he gives the costumer the Poet, thinking no one would ever know the difference!!!

Of course, we all could tell the Raiders hat was different from the other two film hats, but ordinary folks would not notice. That would explain why the Raiders fedora was different. I will post any info Ron comes up with(if he finds the time to research this for us). I can't help but to think the Australian connection may be right at our fingertips. Fedora

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:17 am

That would be something...if the hat sold by HJ to the Raiders production was really a modified Akubra, and then HJ sneaks their own hats (Poets) into the other two films, and fans, meanwhile, purchase this HJ hat, believing it to be "THE" hat, and instead get a hat not quite up to "Raiders" standards. And so the search begins for a better Raiders hat, which in turn leads to many developments, among them, modifying existing Akubra models to look more like the film hat, which in turn leads to the creation of the Federation which is designed to replicate the look of a hat that might have been an Akubra to begin with. An Akubra made at the request of fans to look like an HJ that was really an Akubra? That would be funny stuff.

Does anyone know what kind of felt Akubra used to use back in the 70's? Would it be comparable to the thinner Raiders style felt, as opposed to the thicker felt they use now? Did Akubra make more formal, dress hats back then?

-GCR

Fatdutchman · Post by **Fatdutchman** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:28 am

I've worked on the brim a little bit more, and got a bit more curl on the sides (and evened out both sides). I got rid of much of the hump in the center of the front of the brim that you get when you flip it down. I need to press the center crease down in the back some to make the rear of the hat a tad lower than the front. It's about even right now. This will also cock the back of the hat out a bit more too, to make more of a "reverse taper". The color is a darker brown than my earlier one and PERHAPS a tad less gray. It's not nearly as gray looking as it appears in the photos above.

I'll take photos of the gray one tonight. I feel like a "T man" when I wear this hat! Gimme an axe so I can bust some barrels!

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:19 pm

Does anyone know what kind of felt Akubra used to use back in the 70's? Would it be comparable to the thinner Raiders style felt, as opposed to the thicker felt they use now? Did Akubra make more formal, dress hats back then

I was told that Akubra changed something involving either the source of fur, or the way they make their hats, sometimes in the 80's I think. This person also told me that the felt made prior to this was better felt. Now, whether this is fact or not, I cannot say. Just anecdotal as far as I am concerned. I do know I have held a couple of Akubras that were older and the felt was very soft with minimal stiffener in the crown, and even the brim. It would be so ironic is Deborah had actually used an Australian styled hat, that is, an Akubra, from the HJ shop. I am not sure when HJ started to outsource their hats, but do know they used several suppliers in the last 10 years. Someone else made their hats for them, and just installed the HJ name. This is common, then and now. I am sure that at one time HJ actually made their own hats, and had their own blocks, but I have no clue when the outsourcing started. Fedora

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:52 pm

No, they don't make them anymore. They were called the Bushman Featherweight, and came in fawn and dark brown. They were the hats Fedora and _ were experimenting with to come up with the first correct Indy styling. This hat evolved into the Federation, then the Fed Deluxe.

You're right, though, this one has been gone for many years from the Akubra line. Akubra never said why they discontinued them, but they are well know for dropping one line, only to bring it back to life decades later.

Regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:30 pm

The David Morgan website seems to carry them:

http://www.davidmorgan.com/product_info ... ucts_id=81

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:31 pm

Probably old stock.

Regards! Michaelson

Russ · Post by **Russ** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:06 pm

I have an Akubra catalog that I received in 1990 that had the Bushman with "Superfine Quality" in Nigeria Brown, Deep Fawn, Willo Green, and Steel Grey. The Squatter had the exact same felt and colors back then.

I have found two other vendors besides David Morgan who still carry the Bushman including Hatdsdirect.com although it is not listed on their web site.

The other is Yates Mens Wear (also in Australia) who told me the Bushman will be available again next February.

I'm currently taking a serious look at the Bushman as my next hat. It's so traditional, like those old civilian slouch hats.

The American version from David Morgan has a thinner ribbon and those ugly chinstrap hooks that show through on the outside. The Australian version has the wider ribbon and no chinstrap hooks, but it does have vent eyelets.

However Ron at Hatsdirect.com told me that they have one Bushman right now in size 59 that has the wider ribbon and no eyelets! I'm a size 60 and it almost made me want to shave my head just to be able to order it. This may be somebody's big chance.

He said Akubra can make custom Bushman hats with no eyelets, but they wouldn't be ready till late January. Considering this is basically the same time frame as what I heard from Yates Mens Wear, it looks like Akubra is planning a production run of their Bushman model this winter, which is great news.

Maybe we should all ask for it in their Nigerian brown and give them incentive to add it to their product line this time around.

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:58 pm

Indian Tone wrote:

- but I'm wondering if it's all been tried before and there was something that didn't work the first time out.

At the same time, if the Federation and the Federation Deluxe are the "Indy" improved version of the Bushman - have the modifications already been made and would a person be stepping backwards in buying a Bushman, trimming the brim and replacing the ribbon, only to find that they've essentially created a Federation?

It has indeed been tried before, just check out the Fedora section of the main Indygear site (boy, does that place need an update!). There are several models of Akubra hats that went through the modification process and as Michaelson said, they ended up evolving into the Federation. It's not that anything didn't work, just that something slightly better or at least easier (from the perspective of someone who doesn't want to trim brims and sew on new ribbons) came along, so there was no need to modify the bushman or drover or campdraft anymore.

As for Nigeria brown, isn't this color VERY dark? I recall seeing pictures of one of these modified Nigeria Brown hats on Indygear years ago. I think it was either _'s or Fedora's. I remember it had the eyelets visible on the sides, above the ribbon, which was Indy length, somewhere in the range of 1 1/2 probably. And it looked very, very dark brown, almost black in the right lighting (or is it the wrong lighting?). I think it may have been Fedora's as I think I remember seeing the Bronze colored Gary White (Custom Hatter) Fedora next to it for comparison. Anyway, from my perspective, Nigeria brown, if that was indeed the color I'm remembering, was way too dark for an Indy hat.

- GCR

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:12 pm

That's right GCR. I had one, and it was even an even darker brown than the standard Federation.

Regards! Michaelson

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:17 pm

Found it...

http://www.indygear.com/gear/fedora2.shtml

it's second to last one on the page (Just above the customer hatter entry). If that's the Nigeria brown, it looks just as dark as I remember. Does anyone who has / had one of these remember how dark it looked in person or under different conditions? It looks like a flash may have been used to take that picture and I know when I use a flash on my Fed Deluxe, it tends to make the hat look darker. Does anyone still have one of these?

-GCR

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:23 pm

Thanks Michaelson! I thought it looked dark. I've never seen a regular Federation in person, but they've always looked a bit dark to me as well. But then again, when I got my Fed Deluxe a few years ago, I thought that was too dark! Does Akubra offer a color closer to an Indy brown for the Bushman. This may well be a dumb question since they don't even currently make bushmans (or is it bushmen?)...

-GCR

Russ · Post by **Russ** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:44 pm

So THAT'S what Nigerian Brown looks like. Yeah, it's too dark for an Indy hat but come to think of it, exactly what I would want for a non-Indy hat. Too bad (for me) that they don't make the Bushman in that color any more.

So the Federation was modeled after the Bushman? I have never owned a Bushman (hat or person) but I have three standard Federations (the mid-brown one is in my Avatar). Does anybody here own both a Bushman and a Federation? Are the crown shape and dimensions identical? If that's the case, you don't need your Bushman so you might as well sell it to me

BTW regarding eye vents on the Bushman, the new batch will have them unless you contact Ron at hatsdirect.com and make a special order for one without them. He says the price is the same. I'm seriously considering this myself.

Sorry this thread has veered into bush country. Maybe a moderator will want to split it.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:39 am

I think the rounder dome of the Federation might be closer to Raiders than the Poet's sharper trasition?...... ....... The Akubra Squatter still has the "Superfine" felt, and I think it's maybe the only Akubra that still does. I got one here about two years ago, - note the Indy mention. http://everythingaustralian.com.au/shop ... 0&cat_id=2 The felt is thin and fine, but the hat is too tapered. I bought another Squatter, I'd say 10 years old, on ebay a year ago, the older one's porkpie was hand formed instead of mold formed like the newer one. a 1980 model could have had a different block. By the way, my two inch turn Fed has been sanded thinner and is undergoing a porkpieing right now. Here's my ebay Squatter

.. And my Fed 20 minutes ago-

Here's fresh evidence of the "pork pie" line at Elstree. I was looking for a green looking Raiders hat at Google Images and found this non-film shot. You can see the same line that's there in Cairo, and where the line enters the front bash. http://www.raidershat.com/greensnake.JPG Here's the Cairo line- http://www.raidershat.com/linemonkey.JPG and here http://www.raidershat.com/lineleftright.JPG Here's where the line enters the front bash on that side- http://www.raidershat.com/greensnakeabove.JPG

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:03 am

Hey guys, got this email from Ron. He sheds some light on a few things here. And as always, the guy is as honest as the day is long. Peruse.

There is a new pic on the thread, the so called stretch mark is simply a dent in the side of the hat, by the look of the ribbon it has been sitting inside another hat. Some water on the ribbon and a quick steam and it is all gone. With respect if he thinks that is a problem you should see how they arrive to us from the factory on occasion. Nothing anyone confident with hats and used to seeing felt in all conditions would blink at. I would expect the trip to the USA does this to many hats and simply steam and work with your fingers will take the dent out. A stretch mark it isn't! The way around the dents issue is to apply more stiffener into the crown which would make shaping an open crown almost impossible, especially if you didn't quite get right the first time.

On to more interesting matters, Akubra have agents in the UK so would not have dealt with HJ one to one. I am not sure if the agents are the same, but Akubra are an intensly loyal company, for example David Morgan have been dealing with Akubra from the 60's.

It is quite likely a company such a HJ would have purchased open crown hats from Akubra to convert to custom made shapes. Unfortunately the person who is most likely to know the answer has left Akubra some 6 years ago, he was about 70 then and had a mind for such detail. Many specialist hatters (most have closed shop) were using Akubra open crown hats to custom style through this decade, a carry over from earlier years - no reason a UK one would not. The Fed crown blocks have been around a long time - so its possible, a tantalising thought, but I afraid just speculation.

From memory David Morgan has been supplying the Bushman (same crown as Fed???) since they started. I think he had an opinion the Indy hat could have been an Akubra as well, possibly Nigeria Brown Bushman.

(The company makes many 100,000's hats a year, sometimes as many as 400,000 - the likely hood of them having the records or memory for one shop, likely supplied through a distributor is remote...)

Regarding felt

I have read a number of posts about felt quality - as far as Akubra are concerned any change they have made to felt quality is for the better. I did have a chat to one of the felt makers when I was in the factory (full tour!) and he said drought and rain affected the quality of the pelts, so I guess it is natural to see some variation from time to time. Akubra have 2 years stock of pelts on hand sourced mainly from Australia but also other countries, they select the pelts which are graded and blend the fibres to get the best result. Akubras felters are considered amongst the best in the world.

Some years ago they used to make a felt called "Superfine" which was a slightly lower quality, but they no longer do this. This felt was often thicker but not as dense. Many mistake thickness for quality, as you know this is not necesarily the case. Hats stamped Superfine now are simply unlined...

To complicate matters further, they do have a number of grades within the "Imperial Quality" standard - for instance the hat called The Fedora is Imperial Quality but is worked on more to achieve a specific result, whereas a Cattleman is treated differently. The grade could be something to do with the quality of the fibres and the number of processes it goes through.

The Heritage Grade is a major step up with a better mix of fibres, taken from specific areas of the pelt (softer) and mixed with wild English Hare which brings other qualities to the felt. The felt then passes through many more stages than the Imperial Grade. I am getting some Black Deluxe Feds made in a variation of the Heritage Grade - can't wait to see them. We are piggy backing a special run on the back of a private style made for one company in Melbourne. This is likely to be a limited once off run.

I guess to us maybe the grades within grades should be called something different, but I am not about to lecture a company now in its 5th generation of family ownership about how they should do things!

Thought this would be informative and worthy of posting. Fedora

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:34 am

As usual, VERY good information from Ron!

Regards! Michaelson

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:22 pm

Ron, The marks are not a problem, they are a plus. I wouldn't have noticed or cared if I hadn't been aware of similar marks on the Raiders hat before I ever owned a Fed.. Here's the mark on the Raiders hat and on my new 57 with a two inch turn. (If you look carefully, the mark is wavy, and a couple inches wide on all 3, going furthur back on the hat)

You called it- that 57 was shipped inside my 58 and the mark is exagerated. I don't want anyone to think Feds are defective, they are not, but all 4 Federations I have ordered (at three seperate times) have the marks with softer felt inside the marks. And all 4 have coresponding effects in the sweat- the bulges at the sides.

If Feds started shipping without the marks I would be outraged and depressed! They are a strong selling point as far as I'm concerned.