LC Jacket - How certain are we?

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:46 am

I am under the impression that the LC jacket was not made of lamb, but of cowhide.

The reasoning is that the jacket looks very stiff and also that the color of the distressed parts look like it's cowhide.

Those of you who have distressed the lamb, either by acetone or sandpaper know that the color in the distressed area is pinkinsh/mauve.
If you treat that with pecards it becomes brown just a bit lighter than the original thing.

On the other hand, when I use sandpaper on my cowhide jacket the distressed areas become tan (for lack of a better word/color) and look very similar with the distressed LC jacket.

So, how certain are we that the LC jacket was made of lamb as I recall reading in this forum?

What you guys think?

mark seven · Post by **mark seven** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:05 am

Hi Platon,Peter Botwright at Wested has stated that he only supplied lamb jackets for LC.I seem to remember someone saying that Peter said that those particular jackets had been tanned in whale oil(?) and that's why they had that cow-hide appearance in some scenes.

Doug C · Post by **Doug C** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:34 am

Whatever it was, it definately doesn't look like any other of the the Lamb jackets I've ever seen, just MHO.. I was thinking that too just the other night while my son and I were watching 'Last Cruisade'.

Doug C

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:14 am

I haven't heard this about the whale oil before. I kinda doubt that the whale oil would have that effect on the leather and I can't think why on earth someone would treat the jacket in whale oil to make it look like it's cow hide instead of making a jacket of cowhide in the first place.

Not to mention that I think whale oil has a very bad smell.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:29 am

The jacket in question:

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:35 am

http://adorocinema.cidadeinternet.com.b ... zada06.jpg

Nah, the collar at LC was rounded. Look at above pic.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:07 am

The LC jacket wasn't just one. The one showed in the pic by Kt Templar I believe is from the scene "it happens to me all the time!" followed by "suddenly I remembered my Charlemagne"

http://www.theindyexperience.com/screen ... en/132.jpg
http://www.theindyexperience.com/screen ... en/133.jpg
http://www.theindyexperience.com/screen ... en/136.jpg

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:45 am

erri_wan wrote:The LC jacket wasn't just one. The one showed in the pic by Kt Templar I believe is from the scene "it happens to me all the time!" followed by "suddenly I remembered my Charlemagne"

Thanks Erri I thought I's gone mad.

Which brings us back to gear 101 there were many, many jackets! LOL

Captain D · Post by **Captain D** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:03 pm

Plus, I think that I've read somewhere that Peter confirmed that ALL of the jackets, that were supplied for the Indy films, were indeed lambskin. They were just supplied in a thicker lambskin leather than today's jackets.

The pic above showing the "questionable jacket" always struck me as odd. When we saw the back of it, the back seam didn't fully extend to the pleat seam. However, during the film, you can plainly see that the back seam fully extended/connected to the pleat seam. That was why I had doubted it as being an "on screen" jacket, but who knows...

Doug C · Post by **Doug C** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:46 pm

If someone says that it's just thicker than normal Lambskin, I could buy that explanation 'cause it's certainly smooth looking like lamb can be, having a lack of obvious creasing like in goat or horse does. Just going by the way it "rustles" in the wind (Indy and Henry on the beach scene) I'd say Cow would be tool heavy for that... but again just MHO.

Doug C

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:37 pm

PLATON wrote:I haven't heard this about the whale oil before. I kinda doubt that the whale oil would have that effect on the leather and I can't think why on earth someone would treat the jacket in whale oil to make it look like it's cow hide instead of making a jacket of cowhide in the first place.

Not to mention that I think whale oil has a very bad smell.

I had a memory of rather noxious substances used in the production of leather in the past, here is a quote from historical research:

After shaving, the skins are given a final cleaning, to remove every last bit of dirt and hair possible. If the ancients wanted a skin to be particularly soft, this was the time to make it so. Infusions of hen or pigeon dung, followed by dog dung, were applied to the skin, setting off a fermentation of bacteria which reduced the skin to the desired softness. These processes often took several days, or even weeks. It was important to halt the reaction at the perfect time in order to keep the skin from being destroyed by fermentation, and the judgment of whether or not a skin was properly tempered was one made entirely by feel. Today, softening compounds are chemical rather than natural, and the last bath the skins are given is one of sulfuric acid and common salt, designed to remove the last traces of lime and to impart an overall degree of acidity to the skin, which is helpful in the tanning process to follow (Waterer, Leather 19.)

Later in the process the leather nesds to be sealed/waterproofed this process is called currying:

To finish tanned leather, the Romans would have used a process called currying. Currying involves working grease, perhaps cod oil mixed with tallow, directly into the fibers of the leather with a "slicker" of stone, metal, or glass, as a means of waterproofing the leather and ensuring flexibility and strength (Waterer, Roman, 180). While currying was used by the Romans, and is still used today, on some of the finest military items and harnesses, one drawback of the process is that waterproofing leather eliminates its breathability (Waterer, Leather, 18 ). Vegetable tanned leathers can also be given smooth, grained, bright, or dull finishes, all depending upon how the leather is hammered, folded, or rolled. Even waterproofing changes the final appearance of leather and was sometimes used as more of an aesthetic choice than a practical one (Waterer, Roman, 180).

So yes the whale oil is quite possible!

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:27 pm

About lambskin thickness... I was sure I've heard that Indy jacket lambskin was thinner and softer than what Peter can offer today... but maybe I'm confusing it with the Raiders jacket.

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:45 pm

erri_wan wrote:About lambskin thickness... I was sure I've heard that Indy jacket lambskin was thinner and softer than what Peter can offer today... but maybe I'm confusing it with the Raiders jacket.

I believe you've got it backwards, Erri. As I recall, Peter said that the original Indy jackets (at least Raiders) were thicker and tougher than the lamb he can offer now.

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:41 am

Yesterdays' lamb compare to todays goat, if you have to pick one, is what I've heard too.

Regards,
Swindiana

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:56 pm

J_Weaver wrote:
erri_wan wrote:About lambskin thickness... I was sure I've heard that Indy jacket lambskin was thinner and softer than what Peter can offer today... but maybe I'm confusing it with the Raiders jacket.
I believe you've got it backwards, Erri. As I recall, Peter said that the original Indy jackets (at least Raiders) were thicker and tougher than the lamb he can offer now.

In this case, I'm very happy with the new lamb! I love light weight jackets... and actually I asked him if they could have made of a thinner leather

Thanks for clarifying this point guys

mark seven · Post by **mark seven** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:20 pm

Sorry this a bit late but this has been bugging me-I thought my memory had been playing tricks on me,but I was browsing through the old threads and found Peter's explaination of why the LC jacket has it's distinctive appearance(and why I remembered Whale-oil

),Peter says............... "In the good old days when men were men and only shaved on saturday nights before hitting the town,there was a tannery at Todmorden in Yorkshire,England called turn leathers.The leather they produced was lambskin,not the soft supple skin of today but the thick stuff that could almost stand by itself in the corner. The tanning was done in giant wooden vats and the skin pegged out to dry,not modern chemicals but oil from Whales(now banned). This tannery used to contract tan the english lamb/sheep skins supplied by us and it was this leather used in ALL of the Indy films,with the exception of a few TOD's we did not make. Sadly turn leathers went to the wall and current tanners only have the modern machinary and systems designed to produce super fine skins,so we struggle to get back that look. Cheers,Peter"

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:53 pm

I have a US Wings jacket that has super thick and stiff lambskin like I've never seen before. The center is tan, not dyed through like most. However, the Raiders jacket was dyed through. I can say this with certainty because if you look closely, it is so heavily distressed that the finish is broken through almost everywhere and the hide underneath is the same color.

Havana · Post by **Havana** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:50 am

I have an Avirex A-2 made in the early 80's. It is also made of very thick lambskin that comes through as tan in areas where the finish has worn off. It is literally as thick as cowhide and very tough. It's quite a heavy jacket too, nothing like Wested's current lamb offerings. Must be made from super lambs.