New Jacket offering

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:21 pm

Strider,

They will be made in standard sizes - I think S M L XL XXL to start.

However, shortening the sleeves is fairly easy on these jackets. I can probably take them up for you.

Todd

Dr._J · Post by **Dr._J** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:38 pm

So a 44 Regular would be what? A large? I'd love to see a leather sample. Hopefully, you can bring one of these babies to the QM this Fall!

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:47 pm

Here are preliminary sizes:

S = 38
M = 40
L = 42
XL = 44
XXL = 48
XXL = 50

I'm awaiting sleeve length information to go with this.

Thanks all! I have a new pic of the back of the jacket to show you the overall look. Just ignore the details like side straps, seam finishes, collar height, back panel width, etc. They will all be corrected in the final version.

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:19 pm

here is a large pic of the jacket back. You can see the leather a little better in this one.

http://www.toddscostumes.com/indy/jacketback.htm

Captain D · Post by **Captain D** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:43 pm

Looks like its coming along. Just out of curiosity, are you going to offer other leathers, in addition to the lambskin, in the future?

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:52 pm

I'm 5'9". So if I were to order say, a large, would the height of the jacket be made to fit me, and the chest size be generic? The only thing keeping me from signing on to grab the first jacket right now is the fact that my arms are short, and I'm short to boot, so some custom sizing is a must for me.

Shucks, with this jacket, you'll almost be able to offer the full entire costume on your site. All you need is a pair of trousers and boots, and you'd have the entire thing. Perhaps you can set up something with Indy Magnoli like you have going on with Jerry from WPG (since you sell his bag repros and shirts on your site). I think that'd be a first!

McFly · Post by **McFly** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:04 pm

What sort of lighting were those taken in? The leather looks very pale and sort of purple in those pictures (which I'm sure is not the case). Can you comment on the actual color?

In Christ,
Shane

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:36 am

here is a large pic of the jacket back. You can see the leather a little better in this one.

http://www.toddscostumes.com/indy/jacketback.htm

YES, ladies and gentlemen.
The side strap fasteners are facing backwards.

Todd, that's a fine jacket man. I will buy one for sure as soon as you get the pocket flaps right. Btw what do you comment on your jacket's pocket flaps?

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:35 pm

Just out of curiosity, are you going to offer other leathers, in addition to the lambskin, in the future?

Unfortunately, due to the small volume of production I don't think I'll be able to afford to stock these in other leathers.

I'm 5'9". So if I were to order say, a large, would the height of the jacket be made to fit me, and the chest size be generic?

Here is the measurement breakdown:

SMALL: chest 44", bottom 42", back length 25.5", sleeve length 23.75", shoulder 21.25", cuff 11.75"
MEDIUM: chest 46", bottom 44", back length 26", sleeve length 24.25", shoulder 21.75", cuff 12"
LARGE: chest 48", bottom 46", back length 26.5", sleeve length 24.75", shoulder 22.25", cuff 12.25"
XLARGE: chest 50", bottom 48", back length 27", sleeve length 25.25", shoulder 22.75", cuff 12.5"
XXLARGE: chest 52", bottom 50", back length 27.5", sleeve length 25.75", shoulder 28.25", cuff 12.75"

Those are actual jacket measurements, not body measurements. The best bet is to compare these with jackets you already have to see how this will compare. Of course, the only way to know precisely how it will look on you is to try it on. The sleeve measurement is from the center of the back of the neck, over the shoulder, and down to the cuff like a shirt. I hope this helps. These aren't custom jackets, so it's inevitable that they won't fit everyone.

The leather looks very pale and sort of purple in those pictures (which I'm sure is not the case). Can you comment on the actual color?

It is dark brown. Sorry about the photography. Even though I used a professional camera, and set a custom white balance, and edited it on a color calibrated monitor, sometimes the color just doesn't look right. I'll put the picture over a white background and I'll bet it'll look better.

Btw what do you comment on your jacket's pocket flaps?

Well, I appreciate the comment. Here is a comparison photo montage to get started:

It is hard to judge from photos, and I've learned to never take any one photo as "gospel", but corroborate what I see by a consensus of several photos. In the case of the pocket flaps, good photos and screen shots are hard to come by. This photo is from the entrance to the cave in the opening. The flap is a little "scrunched" as the right and left halves show different shapes. I think the "scrunching" makes the point on the flap appear more severe than it actually is. BUT, that being said, I welcome any comments on improving the flap. I think I can see that a change in proportion is in order.

On another note, I had taken Agent5's recommendation on pocket size, but I think he might be off on the proportions. If I'm not mistaken, he judged the pocket to be 1.25" higher than it is wide (Agent5, am I remembering right?) Here is a photoshop analysis of the same photo, with half the pocket turned horizontal and superimosed over itself, with the edges aligned.

As you can see, it's almost perfectly square. A pixel measurement translates to a difference of only .25" at the most, depending on where you measure. The photo does have a little perspective to it. But visually, the photo really suggests to me that the pocket is square. What do you think?

Again, it's not too late to incorporate these changes and I welcome your suggestions/critique! As I said, my goal is screen accuracy as far as our knowledge of the hero jacket will allow.

YES, ladies and gentlemen.
The side strap fasteners are facing backwards.

Yes, they are (were). I wasn't 100% convinced of the "doubling back through the buckle" theory to make the straps point backwards. Some shots in the film show the buckle area looking much "flatter" than the doubled buckle allows. But I couldn't find conclusive proof, and I reasoned that they probably wouldn't change something as basic as that on the stunt jackets, especially since it's sort of easy to pull out (if they were going to change a stunt jacket, wouldn't they make it HARDER to pull out?) So, I decided to go with the regular arrangement and assume that somehow the hero jacket had settled in nice and flat.

I did discover that the stunt jacket/flight suits replica changed the attachment point of the front strap, probably in the name of ruggedness.

hanson · Post by **hanson** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:07 pm

Also, when can we see a photo of the back panel seams,yoke,side adjustments,etc.?I spoke to Dave Marshall the other day and they(g&b) won't do any alterations to the patterns,only sleeves and torso lengths if I'm not mistaken, Strider. He also said they have about a month turnaround and their return policy I could live with.Puppetboy,please hurry on the back photos as I have money to spend before the wife redistributes it,and already have a pre-wested-hey how about American Leather Conncessionaires, crafted by US craftsmen or something similar for your label. regards, hanson.

McFly · Post by **McFly** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:24 pm

Hanson - he already posted this picture:

In Christ,
Shane

mark seven · Post by **mark seven** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:25 pm

I would love one of these jackets but the smallest size 38" is going to be too big(I'm 36),puppetboy is there any chance you could add an extra small size( 36") for us slimmer guys?

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:52 pm

Here is the only very clear shot of the strap doubling back. You can see the strap wrapping around from the front, it doubles over and you can clearly see it connect to the back of the strap.

hanson · Post by **hanson** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:12 pm

Sorry, I totally missed the back photo in my haste to get my post in and tell Strider about g&b.One thing that has always bugged me is that the verticle back seams appear to be coming out of the shoulder seams or are acually touching them in rotla. Mine are touching on the left but the right side is about .25" closer to the center from the right side shoulder seam(not touching the shoulderseam on the right side at all). I saw a wested on here awhile back that had the verticle back panel seams coming out of the shoulder seams exactly how I wanted and stupid me let it go. I just now zoomed in on the dvd in a couple of seam scenes;and,the left seams touch in the big rock scene and before IJ goes under the truck,the right seams touch,so I could have been wrong wearing out multiple copies of rotla on vhcrap all these pre-dvd-zoom years looking for the seam placements. I'll keep looking for scenes where I thought the seams overlapped, but, at least one side of my jacket is correct screenwise.regards and sorry, hanson.

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:23 pm

Hanson, please do not go by the photo for details! There will be many changes on the final product. I have seen several clear shots that do show a little space between the armhole seams and the back panel. Mine will be that way with the edge of the back panel aligning with the top-stitch around the armhole. If I get a chance I will dig one up.

Agent5, thanks for posting that pic again. It does look like it is looped back through the buckle. I wanted to discount any other explanation for the "loop" as in the strap being loose during the tumble. Also, are you certain that is Ford in that shot? But I do think you are right about the configuration.

Sorry about the sizes, but this time around I've got to go with the most common sizes. I hope down the road I can carry more.

Flash Gordon · Post by **Flash Gordon** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:35 pm

Will there be elastic inside to keep the action pleats closed?

Also, how many inside pockets are there?

hanson · Post by **hanson** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:15 pm

Thanks,Puppetboy,I just found a scene(Indy on the wing and the big guy motioning him down as indy and the pilot 1st turn to see the big guy) there it looks like the seams are all in one line,although flared out into the open pleat mode. I wish I could do screen grabs as my daughter is at school now. regards hanson.PS, if any one can walk me thru screen grabs and will take the time, I'll write the steps down.Computer is an INSPIRON l 1300.

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:50 pm

SMALL: chest 44", bottom 42", back length 25.5", sleeve length 23.75", shoulder 21.25", cuff 11.75"

That "small" would be HUGE on me. 42" on the chest is a little big on me, but it's still comfortable and passable. I don't know what it would feel like with the extra 2" tacked onto it. Maybe if I gained 20 pounds. The sleeves are also going to be a bit long on me, as the usual measurement I send Wested is 22.5, and it has never steered me wrong.

I respect you greatly, Todd, for going the distance to put another jacket offering on the table for us. I'm afraid I just don't think that sales are going to be quite what you're hoping for unless you can offer some kind of customization as far as the measurements go. I know I can't buy one, because the changes to be made would be too drastic at this point to be done to an as otherwise OTR jacket. I could be wrong, though, as I don't know how many people out there have bodies that fit pre generated measurements. One of the main allures Wested has for me besides the fact that they are the original makers is that the jacket is tailor made.

All I ever tell Wested is these easy instructions:

Raiders Jacket
Height: 5'9"
Chest: 41.5
Sleeve: 22.5
Authentic Brown Lambskin
Black sliders
x box stitching
underarm gusset (occasionally)

boom, done.

Of course, I understand that you are not a leatherworker, Todd, nor do you have access to the kind of facilities and employees that Peter does. This is kind of disappointing. I really wanted to get one of these things and work with people like Agent 5 and Michaelson to produce a serious comprehensive review of the Todd's jacket. It's not often one is able to get on at the ground floor like this, and I'm certainly envious of those who were in on the original production line of Adventurebilts.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:00 pm

hanson wrote:Thanks,Puppetboy,I just found a scene(Indy on the wing and the big guy motioning him down as indy and the pilot 1st turn to see the big guy) there it looks like the seams are all in one line,although flared out into the open pleat mode. I wish I could do screen grabs as my daughter is at school now. regards hanson.PS, if any one can walk me thru screen grabs and will take the time, I'll write the steps down.Computer is an INSPIRON l 1300.

Back seams: centre panel goes right to the arm seams.

Well almost! The sleeve seam is miles away from the yoke here maybe 1 1/2 inches!

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:42 pm

You guys do realize that there were probably a couple of jackets for HF don't you? Don't go chasing your tails for too long. You may get a little dizzy.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:50 pm

Rundquist wrote:You guys do realize that there were probably a couple of jackets for HF don't you? Don't go chasing your tails for too long. You may get a little dizzy.

Yes, we know. I just proving that the US Wings type back panel is not correct for at least one of them. ie the 1/2" in from the armholes thing.

I can't get my head around the double vertical line we sometimes see at the pleats.

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:55 pm

Here is one pic showing the back panel away from the armhole seam:

It looks like the jacket used for the cave shots had one side next to the seam and one side away about .25". Maybe I should do that...

Putting the back panel in about .25" or so reduces the bulk at that spot where two seams overlap. I think you could call either one "screen accurate".

Ford's jacket pleat is constantly pulled open, so in favor of authenticity I'm going without the elastic.

Of course, I understand that you are not a leatherworker, Todd, nor do you have access to the kind of facilities and employees that Peter does.

Actually, I am a leatherworker, but I have my hands full with Xena and Gladiator. You are right that I don't have access to the staff that Peter does. My understanding is that Peter has built a business on doing custom jackets and that is his specialty. There will always only be one "Peter" as far as Indy fans go. Perhaps some day I'll do the jackets in house, but the economics of it aren't in favor of that.

My goal is to provide an equal or better "off the rack" jacket than is currently offered, at a lower price.

hanson · Post by **hanson** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:59 pm

Of course your correct Rundquist, but my hang up has been the seam placement. And of course there are many photos of the seams not being the way I want;but, this is really the only thing I care about being exactly as I want . I'm not so hung up on pocket placement,size,scalllops,etc. It doesn't matter to me if the adjustment straps are perfect,although i would prefer the rectangular sliders. A brass zipper is cool with me. And I do prefer the Raiders collar and overall jacket but the most impossible thing for me to find has been the seams. So, now we all have a unique opportunity to put in our 2cents worth at the begining stages.I also prefer lambskin. Thanks, hanson

Toldog07 · Post by **Toldog07** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:57 am

about the straps facing the opposite way, i've seen many screen shots of this any it difers from scene to scene. So if you want the most accurate version..just take ur pick..choose ur favorite scene and put the straps how they were in that scene

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:13 pm

Thanks for the great input, everybody! I am making the pocket changes now - the flap will look like the original. I can't believe I missed that. Sometimes you just have to bring things into photoshop to make accurate comparisons.

hey how about American Leather Conncessionaires, crafted by US craftsmen or something similar for your label.

Good idea...Actually (boy, I hate to say this, but...) the jackets are made in India. I just found that out myself - I was excited to think that they were going to be made in the USA, but... oh well. Maybe the label could read "designed in England, for a movie made in England, Tunesia, and Hawaii, redesigned in USA, made in India from New Zealand sheep". Did I leave anyone out?

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:53 pm

Puppetboy wrote:

Well, I appreciate the comment. Here is a comparison photo montage to get started:

As you can see, it's almost perfectly square. A pixel measurement translates to a difference of only .25" at the most, depending on where you measure. The photo does have a little perspective to it. But visually, the photo really suggests to me that the pocket is square. What do you think?

Again, it's not too late to incorporate these changes and I welcome your suggestions/critique! As I said, my goal is screen accuracy as far as our knowledge of the hero jacket will allow.

Not to add anything beyond an observation, but are you sure that pocket flap that's labeled as “Flightsuits” is from a G&B's Expedition? I own two prototype jackets (with longer flaps), and currently own two regular pattern run jackets (and have had 5 others pass through my hands) and none of them have had pockets like the one represented in the photo. Cheers

Notice below how the flap on the left appears shorter than the one on the right. And this jacket is laid flat. I guess I do have a point. It is going to be very difficult to come to definite conclusions based on two-dimensional photographs of a jacket that originally was in three dimensions and was constantly moving. That particular Raiders picture shows some extreme scalloping in the pocket flap. That's obvious for sure.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:01 pm

The one in Todd's montage is of the original production models before Dave Marshall borrowed mine and changed the flaps. The flaps on your jackets have been the standard flaps for years, Adam, so though his photo is correct...it IS a G&B, they haven't used that style since just after the 2nd QM summit.

Regards! Michaelson

hanson · Post by **hanson** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:15 pm

All I want for Xmas is the back panel seams wider. regards,hanson.

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:37 pm

Michaelson wrote:The one in Todd's montage is of the original production models before Dave Marshall borrowed mine and changed the flaps. The flaps on your jackets have been the standard flaps for years, Adam, so though his photo is correct...it IS a G&B, they haven't used that style since just after the 2nd QM summit.

Regards! Michaelson

Just checking. I'd just never seen it before. Thanks for the info Mark. Cheers

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:53 pm

Just thought I'd point these out from the main site, FS and Wested. How come the modern ones are so different?

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:57 pm

On another note: I am struggling with what to put on the label! I don't want to put "Todd's Costumes" in it since it will likely be worn as a regular garment. My next idea is to make up a name for a clothing store that might have existed in Indy's fictional world/time period. Where would he have bought his jacket? A department store? A tailor's shop? A menswear store? Are there any local names from his fictional hometown that could be used? Any suggestions?

Hey Todd,
Congratulations for going for screen accuracy, I am with you every step of the way. I liked what you said about not going to use the elastic.
If you get the pocket flaps right I will definately buy your jacket. Regarding the pocket flap again, you can get nice screen caps from the truck scene when Indy enters and hits the German guy.

Now, regarding the quote below I have some suggestions to make.

George Lucas initial idea was to name the character INDIANA SMITH. Why don't you take the "SMITH" add your name and make it SMITH & TODD'S.
I don't know if it sounds very nice though.

I also propose fictional names sounding like tailors from Indy's time

Alexander Forbes
Arthur Graham
Austin Reed

Names containing "Indiana"

INDIA NATURAL LEATHER CO.
INDIAN AGNUS (Agnus means lamb in Latin)

Other ideas

WEST INDIAN HIDE CO. (Contains "WEST" to credit Wested and Peter Botwright and INDIAN to denote place of manufacture, also INDIAN is the first 5 letters of the hero's name.)

I will come up with some more ideas and let you know.

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:12 pm

Since it's being made in India, what about something Temple of Doom related? Shiva Leathers,.....Sanakra Leathers,....Mola Lamb???
'Blues

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:35 pm

groan.....

Regards! Michaelson

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:44 pm

Fantastic! Those are some really creative ideas! I'm less inclined to put "leather" in the name for the reason that I might use it in other future products - shirts, pants, etc. if that should ever come to pass.

Wasn't Indy supposed to live in the NE? Connecticut? Any local names that might be of use? Landmarks?

Thanks for clearing up the pocket pic source. Those flaps look real nice, but I think they're even a tad less sculptured than the screen jacket. Below are the two clear images I found - the cave and the truck chase. I drew my pocket and flap directly over the cave shot, but both pockets seem to match. So I'm going with that. I included my final drawing which has been forwarded to the factory. Hopefully, that will be the final pocket shape and it SHOULD NOT VARY from jacket to jacket, year to year. Of course, I'm open to suggestions/ideas, but I'm fairly settled in my mind that this pattern is exactly what is in the photos.

It's nice that the top of the pocket shows through the flap due to distressing so that I can specify how much gap there is between the pocket top and the flap top.

Thanks for the ideas and suggestions, folks!

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:45 am

Your drawing of the pocket and flap are 100% my taste (screen accurate).
Put my name down on your clients list cause I am definately buying from you.

In the photo outside the cave, please note the placement of the side strap. It goes in the middle of the pocket height.

I need one clarification. The side straps on your final model will face backwards or not?

Shawnkara · Post by **Shawnkara** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:58 am

You guys are all forgetting something important with regard to a proposed label.....

According to much of the back story (begining even with the 'Raiders' novel) Indy served in the Army in WWI. Since the jacket was supposed to look like a period FLIGHT JACKET I highly doubt that he just walked into a store and "bought" it

He most likely picked it up while in the Army. If you're looking for a label I would research what types of labels the military used in such jackets during that period. It was designed to look like a MILITARY ISSUE jacket. I certainly would not use the name of some fictional, snobbish-sounding tailor or clothier. Not Indy's style. His suits, maybe. But not his field gear.

And I hate to throw gas on a low flame, but I have to say I'm a bit disappointed at some of the reactions I've read, particularly those based
solely on the price. Sure, Wested still has the best deal and was the original maker but EVERY replica jacket out there leaves a few things to be desired and some are FAR more expensive. I can remember a time when people were practically willing to jump off a cliff to get their hands on a Flight Suits "Expedition". Some people still buy them despite the fact they've cut their options down (off the rack only) and their prices are through the roof. Us Wings doesn't fair much better in terms of price and their jackets are far from accurate and, if you need a larger size, you'll get a jacket stitched together in pieces. Don't give me that "A goat is a small animal" bunk, Wested seems to get by just fine with their goat NOT being hacked into swatches.
Sure, Todd has never made an Indy jacket before and it's an "untested" new venture for him . So what? He's done this stuff for years, sweats the details as much as any of us and I can't recall many cases of his work ever disappointing. Just look over his site, compare some of his work to the actual costume pieces they represent, read over his testimonials. And from the photos this seems to be the first jacket has actually gotten the yoke placement RIGHT!! Give it a chance, guys. Where would we be with regard to Adventurebilt, Texas Action Gear, Adam Winrich, Paul Nolan, Indy Magnoli and countless others if the same attitude in this thread had been present? Not to single out Magnoli here, but he's a good example of my point; he's very NEW to replica clothing, known mainly for props. He's now offering his own version of Aldens, which are VERY close to Aldens in both appearance AND PRICE. I don't think I've heard a single gripe toward Magnoli about either of those two points. So, I'm a bit surprised frankly about some of the reactions to Todd's latest offering. There are a lot of Indy jacket manufacturers out there, and Wested is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to beat. I'm sure Todd would not have bothered with this at all unless he thought he had something serious to bring to the table. It could very well be the perfect alternative for some of us; those who understand that darned pocket flap scallop is NOT the most important detail that's usually handled wrong on other offerings

hanson · Post by **hanson** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:40 am

You're absolutely correct Shawnkara. The only thing I'm concerned with is a little wider back panel, so it doesn't end up looking like a US Wings. From the front few, the color and drape reminded me of my prewested LConn. The only concern I had with the rear was the gaps between the seams of the back panel and the armholes;which, I understand is being looked at if not corrected to my liking as the project goes further. I have never heard of a problem Todd didn't correct for a customer to their satisfaction. If the rear photos looked the exact way I wanted; I'd have bought one today. I don't think i've bought a quality leather jacket of any kind for under $300.00 in my life(except that Brasillian one in 1980) and it was way over tanned and only lasted about 10 years of hard use. That being said Todd knows what he's up against and i don't think he'll let us down. Regards,hanson.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:56 am

It takes a lot of guts for someone to start a project like Todd's especially in a market where there is the original maker (who is unbeatable pricewise) and of course big makers such G&B and others.

On the contrary to what Shawnkara is saying the pocket flap IS one of the most important details because no maker has ever got it right.

My latest order with Wested was customised with most details as per Agent5 and I have also provided them with a very clear photograph of the pocket flap. Although I was charged with the customisation of the flap, the jacket came with the standard flap. (not to mention that the flap was the main reason I was buying this new jacket for).

The same case with the yoke. No one ever got this one right too. My jacket is an 80s fit and all, but the yoke is not one inch higher, contrary to the common belief, but only 0.5 cm.

Not to mention the plastic parts in Wested's nickel zipper...

I complained about all those but ignored. Wested is VERY good and we all know and they worth a great deal of respect. I wear my Wested with awe thinking that they are the original maker that but I guess that they are very busy to hear...

TODD on the other hand will be offering a jacket screen accurate down to the last detail to save me the trouble of providing the specs I want for the jacket to look screen acurate.

Now regarding the military label (tag), I do not agree because of the fact that we all know that this jacket has a design that is so UNIQUE that I wouldn't accept the idea that this jacket was a military issue and thousands of military men got one too.

Also, military jackets were given only to officers. Do we know if Indy was an officer? (I haven't read the novel)

That's why I vote for the idea of the snobbish-sounding tailor.
Another thing is that I thing that the tag should look like it is from the 30s era and possibly to have the name of the snobbish tailor and under it the date he was established which should be well in advance of Indy's birth date. Considering that Ford was 39 at the time of Raiders and the date in the film was 1936 then Indy's date of birth is 1897. Substract say 50 years that will be "Est. 1847" (cause you got to be in the business for at least 50 years in order to be snobbish).

For all above reasons and many more I applaud and welcome TODD's effort and have to say that the only drawback of his jacket is that it is made in India. (Those of you who have been there know what I mean). But that be neglected with the thought that you get the ABSOLUTE screen acurate jacket.

hanson · Post by **hanson** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:24 am

Maybe Indy Magnoli could come up with a cool sounding name, like Magnoli's Since 1875 or something. Doesn't have to be Magnoli though. Could be Jewish, but probably European since the zipper's on the left side. It might even need to say 'Custom Leathers' since it would have had to have been custom made. regards ,hanson.

Toldog07 · Post by **Toldog07** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:39 am

How about Bermans and Nathans...since thats what the original 'screen accurate' jacket tag said

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:45 am

Bermans and Nathans farmed out and paid Leather Concessionaries (Wested) to make the jacket. Nobody at Bermans made it, they only paid for it to be made and stuck their tag inside since they were the ones who had the movie contract to privide the production with the costumes.

Toldog07 · Post by **Toldog07** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:28 am

yeah i know about bermans..it was just a joke

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:29 am

Indiana_Tone wrote:
IndyBlues wrote:Mola Lamb?
Sorry, that is one of the funniest things I've read in a while!

Okay, back to names........

No...that was just.......wrong......

Regards! Michaelson

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:03 am

In this case, it doesn't matter who made the jacket, but what the tag say.

Actually BERMANS & NATHANS is a very good idea as this company doesn't exist anymore, therefore nobody will protest for stolen trademark.

It also sounds like a snobbish tailor to me, so i suppose that it covers that as well.

Toldog07 · Post by **Toldog07** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:05 am

then in that case i was serious all along

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:36 am

All I say is proceed with EXTREME caution, folks.

You're getting into deep and dark waters here, and I'm talking about trademarks, patents, and the like. Just because B&N no longer exists does NOT mean the trademark is not still owned by someone, or that it's no longer an active company.

Remember MBA? Noel Howard closed the doors and essentially announced MBA was no more. The name was purchased, and MBA still exists.

As to the creation of this jacket.....I'm still in the dark as to why it's being created, but that's just my opinion.

Wested still owns the rights and patterns to this jacket. It was never turned over to Lucasfilm. The Expedition was created as an exact copy of the stunt jacket in a private collection. I'm sure, though, if Peter had been a manufacturer on the State side of the big water, I'm sure it would have hit the fan when it was going on.

The Expedition was created at a time in our hobby when there were no changes being made to the Wested in regards to screen accuracy. After the Expedition was created, I believe Peter finally understood what we were all about... stepped up to the plate, and the patterns were changed. Are they totally correct? Some say yes, others say no. That's why the debates and discussions go on everyday here.

The Expedition was based on an actual stunt jacket found on the West Coast, but it was NEVER officially tagged an 'Indy' jacket during ANY of the development or subsequent sales.

U.S. Wings had the official licensing of LucasFilm, and still has their blessing to make the jacket under the actual name...Indiana Jones. They made a few changes with _'s prodding, then they stopped as the development was getting more and more expensive.

So, we now have this one as the 'do all, be all' Raiders jacket. That's what was being pursued with the Expedition.

Todd, you'll soon reach the point in the development that you'll throw YOUR hands up and say "Enough! It is what it is now!", and you'll never make it to everyone expectations, especially if you're hoping to make it in off the rack sizing. That's where Wings got off the train. In order to make off the rack sizing ratios work, it requires extensive changes in the patterns from, say, a size 38 small to a size 50 XL, to make them 'screen accurate'.

In order to recoup your cost in development, you'll HAVE to have it made in a 3rd world country in order to keep the price within range of regular buyers, as it will soon outstrip a company like Gibson and Barnes who have been in the business for decades, and have a HUGE production line to work with.

I'm not offering this as a downer, but I just want to toss this out there for your consideration...and want you to remember I said this if you continue with this project.

Whatever you do, I wish you well. Project development like this is a thankless job. Been there, done that MANY times over, and if completed, will reverberate through the hobby for years. Folks are STILL debating the Expedition project, and that occurred back in 2002.

If successful, you'll also (hopefully) find as much amusement as I do when I read about items I was directly responsible for in developing being either claimed by others, or stories being told of others doing the work.

HIGH regards!

Michaelson

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:31 pm

Michaelson wrote:All I say is proceed with EXTREME caution, folks.

You're getting into deep and dark waters here, and I'm talking about trademarks, patents, and the like. Just because B&N no longer exists does NOT mean the trademark is not still owned by someone, or that it's no longer an active company.

Remember MBA? Noel Howard closed the doors and essentially announced MBA was no more. The name was purchased, and MBA still exists.

As to the creation of this jacket.....I'm still in the dark as to why it's being created, but that's just my opinion.

Wested still owns the rights and patterns to this jacket. It was never turned over to Lucasfilm. The Expedition was created as an exact copy of the stunt jacket in a private collection. I'm sure, though, if Peter had been a manufacturer on the State side of the big water, I'm sure it would have hit the fan when it was going on.

The Expedition was created at a time in our hobby when there were no changes being made to the Wested in regards to screen accuracy. After the Expedition was created, I believe Peter finally understood what we were all about... stepped up to the plate, and the patterns were changed. Are they totally correct? Some say yes, others say no. That's why the debates and discussions go on everyday here.

The Expedition was based on an actual stunt jacket found on the West Coast, but it was NEVER officially tagged an 'Indy' jacket during ANY of the development or subsequent sales.

U.S. Wings had the official licensing of LucasFilm, and still has their blessing to make the jacket under the actual name...Indiana Jones. They made a few changes with _'s prodding, then they stopped as the development was getting more and more expensive.

So, we now have this one as the 'do all, be all' Raiders jacket. That's what was being pursued with the Expedition.

Todd, you'll soon reach the point in the development that you'll throw YOUR hands up and say "Enough! It is what it is now!", and you'll never make it to everyone expectations, especially if you're hoping to make it in off the rack sizing. That's where Wings got off the train. In order to make off the rack sizing ratios work, it requires extensive changes in the patterns from, say, a size 38 small to a size 50 XL, to make them 'screen accurate'.

In order to recoup your cost in development, you'll HAVE to have it made in a 3rd world country in order to keep the price within range of regular buyers, as it will soon outstrip a company like Gibson and Barnes who have been in the business for decades, and have a HUGE production line to work with.

I'm not offering this as a downer, but I just want to toss this out there for your consideration...and want you to remember I said this if you continue with this project.

Whatever you do, I wish you well. Project development like this is a thankless job. Been there, done that MANY times over, and if completed, will reverberate through the hobby for years. Folks are STILL debating the Expedition project, and that occurred back in 2002.

If successful, you'll also (hopefully) find as much amusement as I do when I read about items I was directly responsible for in developing being either claimed by others, or stories being told of others doing the work.

HIGH regards!

Michaelson

I hate to say it (because I don't want to be a downer either), but I agree with Michaelson on all points.

PLATON wrote:
Now regarding the military label (tag), I do not agree because of the fact that we all know that this jacket has a design that is so UNIQUE that I wouldn't accept the idea that this jacket was a military issue and thousands of military men got one too.

Also, military jackets were given only to officers. Do we know if Indy was an officer? (I haven't read the novel)

That's why I vote for the idea of the snobbish-sounding tailor.
Another thing is that I thing that the tag should look like it is from the 30s era and possibly to have the name of the snobbish tailor and under it the date he was established which should be well in advance of Indy's birth date. Considering that Ford was 39 at the time of Raiders and the date in the film was 1936 then Indy's date of birth is 1897. Substract say 50 years that will be "Est. 1847" (cause you got to be in the business for at least 50 years in order to be snobbish).

Actually the Indiana Jones jacket is a very ordinary military/civilain inspired jacket. The front looks like an A-2 and the back looks like a G-1. Many jackets of the time period had waist tabs and straight leather cuffs and waists. Cheers

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:34 pm

There's no worries regarding trademark. Trust me, copyrights are my business (www.stardust-records.com), I run a record label.

Since the company is no more who can bring up a claim?
In my experience as a claim handler in a shipping company I can tell you that it's nearly impossible for anyone with a claim like that to be compensated. The reasons are many e.g. where to find TODD, if B&N has title to sue, in what jurisdiction, for what amount (since TODD's sales will be very small not worthing to go after), the huge lawyer's fees for sueing abroad, the uncertainty of the arbitration decision etc. Other issues include the limitations of liability, seller's negligence etc...

I can assure TODD there is absolutely nothing to fear if he uses the B&N tag. He can verify all that with a lawyer if he finally chooses to use it.

Also, if Wested owns the patterns of this jacket, then I would like to know who owns the patterns to the A-2 G-1 and so on. Every leather jacket manufacturer on this planet makes the G-1 and A-2. Are they in violation of some law ?

Speaking for myslelf, I don't care if the jacket is called "Indy", "Raiders" "Indiana Jones" , "Expedition" or "Stevie Wonder".
We all know what it is from a mile away.

I say TODD go ahead, and don't mind the opposition (don't mean to say that Michaelson is the opposition, but speaking generally)

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:40 pm

Nope, not in the opposition at all....just offering some sage advice.

I, too, am involved in copyright work myself, and it all depends on just how deep the pockets are of the company who owns the names. If you have a conglomerate pick a name up in a trademark/patent/copyright buyout, they will indeed come after you with a chainsaw if they discover you're using it without their permission, or unless you've signed a contract with them for credit and residuals from sales.

I've seen and read about this in the purchase of defunk watch company names. They may never USE the name on any given item they make...but they OWN the name, and will prosecute to the fullest extent of the law, and it's really interesting just how often they're willing to go after a small time vendor in order to make a point.....as to go after a big name WOULD be to expensive. Small vendor, no problem....and a point easily made to others who might be thinking about doing the same venture.

Of course in Todd's case, I KNOW I'm preaching to the choir, as if he's as deeply involved in the creation and sales of Xena gear, he KNOWS he has to keep his 't's crossed and 'i's' dotted to keep on the good side of the owner of THAT franchise. Once again, personal knowledge on my part, as my son-in-law and youngest daughter also make fantasy armor and edged weapons, and have their OWN registered trademark.

Like I said, just another opinion, and based on personal and professional experience from my end of the swamp.

Regards! Michaelson

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:49 pm

What I find sort of ironic is that when I tried to purchase JUST the side strap buckles from G&B a few years ago they refused on the basis that someone could use them to make another jacket. I found to be too funny because they aren't the original maunfacturers or own the original patterns as Wested does, however I understand that as a company they were concerned about protecting their investment.
Still, when they told me the reason they wouldn't sell parts to the Expedition because someone may try to create a jacket based on their jacket...well, I laughed right in their face and told them they were crazy because they as well as Wested seemed to have that market cornered.

Now, here it is. Another jacket. I feel like, D'OH!!!

Since the company is no more who can bring up a claim?

Someone may still own the name. I found an address for them fairly recently. I'm not even 100% certain the company is totally gone.

As to the creation of this jacket.....I'm still in the dark as to why it's being created, but that's just my opinion.

I think it can only be a good thing for all of us who are serious about gear. I've always say the more the better. It's up to the vendors to put out a quality product with at least decent customer service and word alone will decide whether or not it will take off. It's all about a good product and good buisness.
At first I too was thinking 'why?', but then I though 'why not?'. I'm interested as always to see where this will go.

I've always been partial to the Wested when you can get one that comes with all the mods that were placed on your order sheet. I think Wested would be untouchable if they could just get it together and make sure that they have all the orders complete before letting them go out the door instead of fixing them for free and paying for shipping after the fact.
I've always loved that the G&B jacket never had that problem and that you always knew what you were getting. There was no guessing game with them and as with Wested, you knew you were getting a quality jacket and I think the Expedition exceeds the norm for quality. However as much as the Expedition looks just like an Indy jacket, it has never felt like one to me. The leather has always been the #1 turn off for me on that jacket in all I've seen in person and also from the reports of others who own them.
To me both companies dropped the ball in one way or another, but this is just my opinion. I'm a perfectionist and for some people thats too much to handle. Most are happy with their Westeds even though it didn't come with all the mods asked for and most are happy with their G&B jackets simply because they're built so tough, even though the leather is not the right weight or feel for an Indy jacket. They're happy anyways. The thing is if enough of us spoke up they may think of changing some things to our benefit. If not, I know one way to make any company listen...stop buying their product.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that Wested and G&B have been here and done that but Puppetboy is just getting into this and has the opportunity to fix some of the problems we see in the other vendors. I'm ready to see where this goes and wish him alot of luck.