Just pitiful...

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 2:50 pm

Check out this eBay auction. This is so sad. To add insult to injury, this guy even tries to slander David Morgan. Somebody needs to beat this guy with his own whip- a David Morgan is too good for that.

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 3:27 pm

Yeah. We've seen him before in some earlier posts. He always has whips for sale.

sab04 · Post by **sab04** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 3:50 pm

That made me so angry that I just sent the f#cker a nasty letter :evil: ............... Ahhhhhhh, I feel much better now

........sorry guys, I couldn't help it

-Scott

MaryonRavenwood · Post by **MaryonRavenwood** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 4:29 pm

Vent, my friend, vent....we all feel like that sometimes.

I sent him an email...tactfully worded.

"It's not very nice to slander David Morgan, especially since his whips are of extremely high quality. You might want to be careful of that--it may end up driving off more bidders than you'd want. We'd appreciate it at Indygear if you wouldn't do that. You certainly do have a right to advertise your whip as a quality product, but there are better ways to go about it."

I was nice, right?

Regards--Maryon

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 4:52 pm

Very nice indeed. Far kinder words than I would have chosen.

sab04 · Post by **sab04** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 4:52 pm

Yes, I'd say you were rather nice. My letter really wasn't that bad.....I mean I never swore at him. I made my point then slapped him in the face if you know what I mean

-Scott

sab04 · Post by **sab04** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:21 pm

Ah Ha! I just figured out how to get a picture under my screen name

-Scott

Frank Wolf · Post by **Frank Wolf** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 4:41 am

It's kind of sad to see someone using that kind of means to advertise ones products.

Has any of you ever seen or used one of these whips in real-life? I was just wondering because of the price.

Mystique · Post by **Mystique** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 4:55 am

Largest maker of whips since the 70's?
The guy who wrote this probably doesn't know how long David Morgan
has been making whips, or the fact that his family business has been
running since 1962. I feel if David Morgan was approached
to make and provide whips for a production as magnanimous
as the Spielberg/Lucas enterprise, than the man must have some merit.
He doesn't have to steal anything or jump on the bandwagon, because
his credentials prove he is beyond petty snipes, and guerilla tactics.

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 10:27 am

Frank Wolf wrote:Has any of you ever seen or used one of these whips in real-life? I was just wondering because of the price.

I have one. It's really only a $35 whip. The whip itself, is a nice whip. Has the swivel handle and nylon core, of course. I use it now to pratice outside when it's wet because of it's nylon core and tough cowhide braiding.

You can read more about my trials and tribulations here.
http://www.indygear.com/community/forum ... sbullwhips

Frank Wolf · Post by **Frank Wolf** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 3:57 pm

Gee.

I think I stay away from them, no matter how nice the whips might be.

At the moment I'm not even looking for a new whip because I just got a nice 7 footer made by The Whip Man and busy as a bee with it.

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 4:05 pm

Frank Wolf wrote:Gee.

I think I stay away from them, no matter how nice the whips might be.

At the moment I'm not even looking for a new whip because I just got a nice 7 footer made by The Whip Man and busy as a bee with it.

The Whip Man, Peter Jack? Hey, that's good, I've been wanting to take the plunge with one of Peter's whips. Did you get a stock whip or one of his zenith bullwhips?

-Sergei

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 4:09 pm

Ha! That Zenith Bullwhip looks lethal! Gosh!

Frank Wolf · Post by **Frank Wolf** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 4:29 pm

Mine is a target whip, since I'm more comfy with the longer handle.

Two small pics of my new baby...

Frank Wolf · Post by **Frank Wolf** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 4:33 pm

Sergei wrote:Hey, that's good, I've been wanting to take the plunge with one of Peter's whips. Did you get a stock whip or one of his zenith bullwhips?

-Sergei

If you're thinking about getting a whip from The Whip Man I highly recommend him. It's a work of art!

My 12 footer is made by Jacka and it's great looking whip but this new baby is awesome, allmost cute.

MaryonRavenwood · Post by **MaryonRavenwood** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 5:46 pm

The seller's reply:

"Hello:

Another person that doesn't know the definition of slander.

As far as Morgan's whips are concerned: we've broken them time after time. That's a fact. And, since we've sold over 20,000 (yes, 20 THOUSAND) whips over the years--we really don't need your advice.

Get some manners and get some education regarding leather and whips. Visit TexasBullwhips.com and don't bother writing to us anymore--we're not looking for pen pals.
ADIOS!
JACK MAIN
Overnight Products Manager
Western/ AuctionMerchants.com"

Manners? I thought I was rather polite, personally.

Education? All of you here at Indygear have certainly educated me--properly.
Regards--Maryon

sab04 · Post by **sab04** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 5:59 pm

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: ok scott.......take a deep breath....his reply to me was much worse! How the he*l do you break a DM? They are made of extra wide HEAVY kangaroo! What is he doing??? swinging on it???!!!
Oh well, he's an aroggant J@ckass and I'm not so that make me the bigger man.....right?

-Scott

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 6:00 pm

Mary, he doesn't know you as well as we do... don't take it too hard!

MaryonRavenwood · Post by **MaryonRavenwood** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 6:05 pm

Oh, I'm sitting here crying my eyes out!

(voice dripping with sarcasm.)

I swear, if I ever start selling stuff on eBay, I will advertise my products honestly and NOT by saying that someone else's similar product is cr@p. Scout's honor. Some people just don't know how to do business...
Regards--Maryon

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 6:27 pm

I'm surprised that cheap ************ [insert expletive of your choice here, but if you count the asterisks, you can probably figure out what I said] can even afford David Morgan bullwhips, if he's even telling the truth at all. More than likely, he's not. I'm sure that a fly-by-night outfit like that doesn't have a large budget for quality control, which may or may not include purchasing competitor's products for "testing" purposes, and I can't imagine that they would care much about it either way. As evidenced by their reply, >>since we've sold over 20,000 (yes, 20 THOUSAND) whips over the years--we really don't need your advice<< they're primarily concerned with making money, which is a pretty sad motivation in and of itself. Notice how they reaffirmed their sales quota as if to convince themselves as well as discerning whip enthusiasts like us that they are a business worth patronizing? This proves only that they're interested in quantity more than quality, and I gather they're not too keen on customer service either, because they **** at it.

Gosh, I love sticking it to people.

-Dale

P.S.- Feel free to forward any portion of this letter to them. I'm sure they will think of many more nasty things to say to us, which I find rather amusing.

MaryonRavenwood · Post by **MaryonRavenwood** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 6:33 pm

It is rather amusing, isn't it?

Regards--Maryon

Whiper Jones · Post by **Whiper Jones** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 7:43 pm

This whip of Texas B....
It seems to be same kind I ordered once from another source.
Its thick leather and like this it does not have replaceable fall and fall is very wide and way too short!
Wide fall makes it floating like kite so its not good for target cutting or even making good cracks!
If you want to make this whip work you have to trim the fall much narrower but as fall is very short whip will lose its balance. (if it ever had it...)
If David Morgan, Joe Strain etc. whips are like knives of surgeon
this piece of cr*p is like sledgehammer!

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 8:24 pm

Whiper Jones wrote:This whip of Texas B....
It seems to be same kind I ordered once from another source.
Its thick leather and like this it does not have replaceable fall and fall is very wide and way too short!
Wide fall makes it floating like kite so its not good for target cutting or even making good cracks!
If you want to make this whip work you have to trim the fall much narrower but as fall is very short whip will lose its balance. (if it ever had it...)
If David Morgan, Joe Strain etc. whips are like knives of surgeon
this piece of cr*p is like sledgehammer!

Well said! And WhipWarrior you can add me to the quote list:
"Your product *****". How can anyone be serious that their low end, POS, cowhide, no belly, wide fall, whip can possible be better than a David Morgan or Joe Strain.

-Sergei

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 9:15 pm

I love it when great minds think alike!

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 10:30 pm

Just hear me out and don't take it personally. I'm just tired and cranky.

Yes it's annoying but their form of advertisement is no different than what you see in advertisments for soft drinks, automobiles, bed mattresss, beers, home electronics, you name it. This same kind of discussion took place concerning FS write up on their website and I found that unwarranted as well.

I have plenty to say about TexasBullwhips (since I actually own one) but I'll save it. I've said it all before in this very same forum every six months when some one re-posts one of their ebay auctions.

I'm not defending TB.com but that fella had every right to be ticked off in his response. I would hope that there aren't more letters identified as being from IndyGear going to this company. We really don't need them sending trollers here and/or causing other problems like complaining to the ISP or something.

Just let them sell their whips and be done with it because, seriously, they aren't selling a substandard whip. It may not be the best whip for the best value but it isn't a piece of garbage that will fall apart on you. Just let them go about being jackasses in their advertising department and leave it at that. Word of mouth will drive their business down, not attack spam.

Frankly, I'm surprised. There are other whip vendors around that are selling garbage that don't get this kind of negativity thrown their way. The opposite actually.

I'll step down now.

-Kyle

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:22 am

Kyle,

Frankly I am upset with this guy replying:
"As far as Morgan's whips are concerned: we've broken them time after time. That's a fact. And, since we've sold over 20,000 (yes, 20 THOUSAND) whips over the years--we really don't need your advice. "

Flight Suits did after all did change their advertisement after pressure from us fans. But FS did not come close to the mud slinging this guy is dishing out.

But, but... listen everybody, I do agree with Kyle. Every 6 months we do get riled up with a frenzy by some of us that send this guy a message. It doesn't bother him. So the only thing to do is ignore his claims and vote with your pocket book.

In fact, these kind of bullwhips are part of our history. I remember watching some of the early Mark Allen tapes expound on how to correct these "latigo" style of bullwhips by trimming down the width of the falls. They are sturdy, and there have been a number of whip artist's that have made a career using these types of whips. I wouldn't recommend them, but "whatever floats your boat".

Just my opinion....

-S

prettybigguy · Post by **prettybigguy** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 4:24 am

I affraid that I'm going to have to agree with Kyle and Sergei. Attacking these guys isn't going to do anything. If you want to bring their claims to the attention of David Morgan and let him decide whether he wants to take action or not is probably the thing to do. After all, how often do we see people on E-bay trying to sell there products as "just like the _____ of Indiana Jones". They are preying on the uninformed which, we here @ Indygear, are definatly not!
PBG

Indiana Joe · Post by **Indiana Joe** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 6:06 am

sab04 wrote:ok scott.......take a deep breath....his reply to me was much worse! How the he*l do you break a DM? They are made of extra wide HEAVY kangaroo! What is he doing??? swinging on it???!!

Dale, I like your response and I'm quoting Scott here because here's the e-mail I got back from this vendor after I'd sent him a brief, business-style e-mail addressing improved marketing appeal if he'd cease putting down "DM" and let his product speak for itself. No, I didn't meantion IndyGear. Ready for this one?

"Another imbicile that doesn't know the meaning of slander.

Look, get a reading education and an education regarding whips. Visit TexasBullwhips.com

We've tested Morgan's whips a LOT and he use inferior fall leather and...his whips can't take real world use.

ADIOS!
JACK MAIN
Senior Products MGR.
AuctionMerchants.com (USA::EURO)"

Inferior leather? I may not own a DM whip but I know they're made of kangaroo hide which is much stronger than goatskin. In fact, I've never even seen a DM in real life but common sense tells me when someone like Morgan has been in business for almost 40 years and is sought out by movie studios--he's got to be doing something right! Not to mention the "whip enthusiasts" who seem to objectively praise his work.

Anyway, I refuse to be offended by this person. Forgive him, Lord, for he knows not what he does.

Indiana Joe

TheOther Jones · Post by **TheOther Jones** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 7:11 am

I think that the only thing TB.com people find wrong with a DM is that the fall can break. And they don't seem to understand that it's meant to happen, that it's a replaceable part. They're dense

Indiana Texas-girl · Post by **Indiana Texas-girl** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 8:25 am

Well, just from those responses, this poor TB guy has shot himself in the foot here in terms of possible business interest from our community. I'm almost tempted to let the Whip Enthusiasts group aware too (I may post this info at the WE site tonight when I get home if I can remember). This guy does not deserve anyone's business if that's how he's going to treat potential customers. My $.02.

Whiper Jones · Post by **Whiper Jones** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 9:07 am

I remember there has been topics about TB in Whipenthusiasts every now and then.
Mostly ticked of lines about TB.

Whiper Jones · Post by **Whiper Jones** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 9:15 am

BTW, does this forum has somekind of automatic censor???

"Ticked" was not the word I wrote!

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 11:51 am

Whiper Jones wrote:BTW, does this forum has somekind of automatic censor???
"Ticked" was not the word I wrote!

Yes, the software that is running this bulletin board, phpBB, has a feature to filter out curse words. Sometimes, we tend to get colorful in language, myself included. We do this since we have quite a spread of age groups as forum members, so we have to make sure that adult language and adult conversations are not offensive to the parents of forum members. I know that we can talk eons on whether it is right vs. wrong, but we have to be sensitive to kids and people in general, that feel uncomfortable around colorful language. If anyone has ever conversed with me, they know my use of colloquial and free spirited language, but there needs to be a line drawn and I honor it.

-S

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:10 pm

How can anyone be serious that their low end, POS, cowhide, no belly, wide fall, whip can possible be better than a David Morgan or Joe Strain?

LMAO!!!

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:52 pm

Texas Bullwhips wrote: We've tested Morgan's whips a LOT and he use inferior fall leather and...his whips can't take real world use.

ADIOS!
JACK MAIN
Senior Products MGR.
AuctionMerchants.com (USA::EURO)"

There it is. Right there. The jerk is talking about the falls and not the kangaroo hide when he refers to breaking a DM whip. I hate to say this but in a small way he is right and it comes down to personal preference. The folks at TB.com, for some reason, believe that using a whip involves cracking it as hard as possible with every fibre of their being each and every time. Of course a DM (or JS or PS or any other whip with an Aussie fall) will break if used in this manner. So yes, from their point of view a DM whip is "inferior" for the style in which they choose to use and crack whips. Just as their whips are inferior to me for the style in which I crack them. Both types of whips and they're materials have their good and bad qualities depending on who is using them. I'll leave it at that.

This is not to say that I agree with their arrogant and ridiculous comments in they're ads or their responses. I think they are full of it. I just choose to give it a good chuckle and turn the other cheek. They're obviously in the minority.

-Kyle

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:21 pm

Not to be a contrarian, but here is a quote right from his web site:
"BIGGEST MYTH: Kangaroo Leather has more tensile strength than Cowhide. BIGGEST FACT: NO WAY! and ESPECIALLY NOT IN WHIPS!"

So he has a definite bias against kangaroo hide. And besides, the falls that are classically used on roo whips are red hides or white hides which is cowhide.

-Sergei

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 2:01 pm

JOE GARELLI: "You TELL 'EM, Mr. James!!!
LISA: "NO, please don't, sir!"

LOL

Ah, screw 'em. I'm having WAY too good of a day to let some clown like that ruin it. Something REALLY awesome has happened in my life, and I'm on top of the world. (While not Indiana Jones-related, it makes me feel as high as I did the day Harrison Ford called me).

-Dale

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 2:05 pm

Sergei wrote:Not to be a contrarian, but here is a quote right from his web site:
"BIGGEST MYTH: Kangaroo Leather has more tensile strength than Cowhide. BIGGEST FACT: NO WAY! and ESPECIALLY NOT IN WHIPS!"

So he has a definite bias against kangaroo hide. And besides, the falls that are classically used on roo whips are red hides or white hides which is cowhide.

-Sergei

LOL! I stand corrected, Sergei. I had forgotten about that line on their site. It still makes me laugh.

I stand by my previous assertion that cowhide swivel whips and roo hide bullwhips do have their respective strengths and weakness depending on the user and purpose. Regardless of how inappropriate the company happens to conduct itself. I love America!!

-Kyle

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 2:25 pm

whipwarrior wrote:JOE GARELLI: "You TELL 'EM, Mr. James!!!
LISA: "NO, please don't, sir!"

LOL

Ah, screw 'em. I'm having WAY too good of a day to let some clown like that ruin it. Something REALLY awesome has happened in my life, and I'm on top of the world. (While not Indiana Jones-related, it makes me feel as high as I did the day Harrison Ford called me).

-Dale

What???? And you are not going to share? Was-sup??

-Sergei

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 3:47 pm

It has to do with my favorite actress, and I'm afraid it wouldn't be of interest to many people here. So, out of respect for the theme of this website, I'll save it for the NewsRadio board. I apologize for teasing everyone like that, but it's not about Indiana Jones.

-Dale

sab04 · Post by **sab04** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 4:54 pm

By the way, learn how to really crack a whip hard, kid and maybe you too can break a Morgan fall.

Still REALLY lauging, but any more mail from you and the other wek, shut-ins that think think they know something will get deleted un-read.

:evil: UNBELIEVABLE!!!! :evil:.........but I'm not gonna let it bother me because I errr.. WE know were right....right?

Thats funny.....I don't feel like a weak shut-in

-Scott

MaryonRavenwood · Post by **MaryonRavenwood** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 7:31 pm

whipwarrior wrote:Ah, screw 'em. I'm having WAY too good of a day to let some clown like that ruin it.

You know what DID ruin my day...the other day...watching the Golden Globes and seeing that twig, Calista Flockhart (Ally McNeed-a-Meal) sitting next to Harrison. What's he thinking?!?!!

Regards--Maryon

Indiana Texas-girl · Post by **Indiana Texas-girl** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 7:33 pm

KyleS wrote:
Texas Bullwhips wrote: We've tested Morgan's whips a LOT and he use inferior fall leather and...his whips can't take real world use.

ADIOS!
JACK MAIN
Senior Products MGR.
AuctionMerchants.com (USA::EURO)"
There it is. Right there. The jerk is talking about the falls and not the kangaroo hide when he refers to breaking a DM whip.

I have to wonder if this guy conditioned those falls after every use. I made that mistake of not conditioning after EVERY use and I had a fall that gradually broke off several times over a 2-3 week period (starting at 2 feet long and ending up at a little over a foot long). This was after at a least a month or 2 of having used it on several occasions. It wasn't until Indiana Dan told me a few weeks ago that I needed to have been conditioning the FALL after EVERY use that I realized why it had broken off so easily.

Dale, did you finally uh meet Vicki Lewis??????????? Feel free to PM your excitement.

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 8:11 pm

I thought now would be a great time to share something I archived in my files about the strength of Kangaroo hide when I was doing research on certain tensile strenghts of leather. It's nevertheless very interesting and certainly destroys to shreds the MYTH that our friend at Texasbullwhips.com purports to be non-factual.

===================================
Kangaroo can be tanned to suit a wide variety of uses. What makes kangaroo the best material for fine whipmaking is it's incredible tensile strength and fine grain. It can be cut into fine strands and plaited tight and hard. Cowhide cut to the same dimensions would simply snap. For whipmaking a vegetable tannage, preferably wattle bark is used. Red kangaroo provides a finer grained leather, grey kangaroo a coarser grained heavier leather. Veg tanned 'roo darkens with age due to UV exposure and conditioning. An offwhite synthetic tannage is available that seems to have good wear and plaiting properties. Skins come from culled wild kangaroos and are subject to scarring and insect damage. The best quality comes in skins 5-9 ft square.

The following article is taken from NEWR - the bi-monthly official journal of the Australian kangaroo Industry distributed to all members.

----------------------------------------------------
KANGAROO LEATHER is widely accepted as being one of the strongest light weight leathers available. Yet the reasons for this strength are not widely appreciated.

Studies conducted by the Australian CSIRO confirm that kangaroo is one of the strongest leathers of similar substance available (Stephens 1987).
Similarly when split into thinner substances kangaroo retains considerably more of the original tensile strength of the unsplit leather than does calf. When split to 20% of original thickness kangaroo retains between 30 to 60% of the tensile strength of the unsplit hide. Calf on the other hand split to 20% of original thickness retains only 1-4% of original strength (Stephens 1987).

Studies of the morphology of kangaroo leather compared to bovine help explain these remarkable differences. The collagen fibre bundles in cattle hide are arranged in a complex weaving pattern. The fibres are often at angles as much as 90 degrees to the skin surface. Cattle hide also contain sweat glands, erector pili muscles and a distinct gradation in elastin levels, concentrated in the upper part of the skin.

Kangaroo on the other hand has been shown to have a highly uniform orientation of fibre bundles in parallel with the skin surface. It does not contain sweat glands or erector pili muscles and elastin is evenly distributed throughout the skin thickness (Bavinton et al 1987). This structural uniformity explains both the greater tensile strength of the whole leather and the greater retention of strength in splits. Bovine skin is much more complex in cross section. Hence in whole section it has many more weak points from which tears can start when placed under tension. In addition when sliced into splits the collagen fibres running at significant angles to the skin surface will be cut. These then become weak points in the structural strength.

Thus the structural uniformity in the morphology of kangaroo leather readily explains its dramatic strength and the retention of this strength when split. This uniformity requires efficient fat liquoring and staking to obtain optimal results from processing. These processes have the effect of unsticking fibre bundles from each other, thereby enabling each bundle to move independently. Since kangaroo fibres are aligned parallel to each other they contact other fibres along much of their length. Bovine fibres on the other hand only contact other fibres at the points where they intersect with them.

-Sergei

sab04 · Post by **sab04** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 9:14 pm

You should send that to TB. It should shut them up for a while

.....
-Scott

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 9:18 pm

I doubt if he'd read it.

Chamorro · Post by **Chamorro** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 10:17 pm

I doubt if he'll understand it.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Jan 27, 2003 6:42 pm

David Morgan is well aware of this fellow and of his claims, and personally finds him amusing. If it doesn't bother Mr. Morgan any more than that, I guess we can do the same, and just not deal with the company in question. Just pass the word should someone post a question regarding them. If we can keep someone from getting burned of our group, we've done our job. Regards. Michaelson

Frank Wolf · Post by **Frank Wolf** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 3:53 am

Michaelson wrote:If it doesn't bother Mr. Morgan any more than that, I guess we can do the same, and just not deal with the company in question.

Right. With the kind of attitude they seem to have I bet they won't be getting much returning customers and will be gone soon enough.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 12:48 pm

....if practice continues, just close their doors and evolve into yet ANOTHER company with a new and improved product. Shades of Cattle Baron Leather Co from the mid 1980's. Regards. Michaelson

Just pitiful...

Just pitiful...

Tensile Strength of Kangaroo Hide

Easy folks

Re: Easy folks

Or...