Nadoolman in person...NO GREY HATS WORN BY FORD.

Ripper · Post by **Ripper** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:15 pm

Wasn't there someone on here that had a pic of their hat, a brown one , looking grey/gray? I searched and couldn't find it.

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:40 pm

It all comes down to the subjective viewpoint of the onlooker, I guess. Others see this picture and see a grey/gray fedora. I see only brown.

It makes no sense for me to have Indy wear two different colored hats, but that's just me. Reasonable minds can disagree right? Right?

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:45 pm

Wasn't Muren sitting on the side of the plane, with natural light coming thru the window, as opposed to Ford, who was on the shady side of the plane?
'Blues

Post by **Indy Magnoli** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:56 pm

inexpensive_jones wrote:Compared to the rest of the movie, IJ looks pale compared to sunny outdoor scenes.

He doesn't look pale at all here:

Kind regards,
Magnoli

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:08 pm

There is an overall brown cast to that shot and it is very dark. (L) Remove both and the hat is grey. (R)

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:16 pm

KT, I respectfully disagree. 1, it looks overcast (typical for the Bay Area), which would impart a greyish tone, not a brownish one. 2, neither Ford's shirt nor the seaplane have brownish tint to them; in fact, they trend towards grey to my eye. Same is true of the tarps etc. viewable in the background. 3, the lady's hair is clearly golden brown, showing a transition from the angle of the light (and hair's natural sheen, which felt lacks).

michaelb · Post by **michaelb** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:20 pm

Thank you Flash Gordon!

I consider this thread locked!

Oh, dang... I'm not a moderator...

Oh well, I tried...

Michael B

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:20 pm

that_dog wrote:KT, I respectfully disagree. 1, it looks overcast (typical for the Bay Area), which would impart a greyish tone, not a brownish one. 2, neither Ford's shirt nor the seaplane have brownish tint to them; in fact, they trend towards grey to my eye. Same is true of the tarps etc. viewable in the background. 3, the lady's hair is clearly golden brown, showing a transition from the angle of the light (and hair's natural sheen, which felt lacks).

Did you notice that in the version of the pic I posted I'd already made the correction I mentioned. I'll put the previously posted pic next to it and you will see it clearly.

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:41 pm

Sorry, there must be something wrong with me, because I see a brown hat in both pics.

I appreciate the back and forth, though. I think I've made my last foray into the grey vs. brown debate. It's been fun, and nice to see people keeping it civil.

Tycoonman · Post by **Tycoonman** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:45 pm

I see brown in that picture there, but during the movie I see gray... Maybe I need a trip to LensCrafters to have my eyes examined...

Tycoonman

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:01 pm

I think what's being missed here, is that no one beleives that the hat is Indy's regular brown fedora. To half of the people the hat looks gray, and the other half it looks brown. I don't think anyone is saying it's THE Indy fedora, just another shade of brown.
'Blues

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:26 pm

No, Blues. The people that say it is a brown hat also say that Indy would not have taken a second hat. Therefore, the hat is brown as it is his hero hat. They say he would not have bothered to pack another hat into his luggage.

They also say that it is a designed part of his character, that he always wore a brown hat. By this reasoning, they feel that he would also wear his brown hat with his blue suit.

This is faulty logic, as the only controversy over his hat, occurs in the scenes when he has on his blue suit. Anytime he wears brown clothes, his hat is definitely brown. With the blue suit, it is definitely a different color.

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:19 pm

Bufflehead Jones wrote:Anytime he wears brown clothes, his hat is definitely brown. With the blue suit, it is definitely a different color.

I usually try to stay out of these debates, but that is exactly how I see it. No matter how I look at it, I don't see the same hat he was wearing in the Raven Bar, etc.

I try to look at the situation logically. If I was going somewhere for a few weeks I wouldn't be able to get eveything in one carry on bag. It think its quite possible he had some checked luggage. During this time period a man wearing a hat was like a man wearing pants now. You didn't leave the house without it. Why wouldn't he have two hats? I think we can all agree he would have looked like a first class moosetwit wearing his dirty Cairo hat back home to the States after it was all over with. I don't find it a big stretch to think he had two hats.

But none of this "he might/ he might not" reasoning really matters since none of this is reality. All that really matters is that some of us see a gray hat and some of us see a brown hat. Its not likely that we'll never have an answer, but its not likely we'll ever know what happened to Jimmy Hoffa either.

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:29 pm

I don't think he had one hat, I think there are two hats,..one action Indy brown, and one dressy Indy brown. I don't think everyone who sees a brown hat assumes it's his ONLY hat. This is definatley one of those things that will forever be split down the middle of Cow-dome.
'Blues

Post by **Indy Magnoli** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:13 am

Indiana_Tone wrote:Cow-dome! "Two feds enter. One hat leaves. Two feds enter. One hat leaves!"

Quick... someone get to Photoshop! The posibilities are endless!

Kind regards,
Magnoli

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:32 am

Bingo! IndyBlues. So you agree there are two hats. The Raven/Cairo hat with it's warm brown colour and the Plane one. The name of the colour is now all down to what you call it and I believe it's just down to the description.

In the "Grey" hat I see a hat with virtually no chroma therefore I call it grey. It's similar to the debate people have with "light coloured" flourescant tennis balls some people call that colour yellow some people call it green.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:12 am

I see both sides. I sometimes see is a grey and sometimes as brown. Threy hat would go better with the navy suit but he could wear a brown hat with the navy suit if he had a light brown over coat or trench. He is caring a light brown coat over his arm when he enters the plane.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:27 am

J_Weaver wrote: But none of this "he might/ he might not" reasoning really matters since none of this is reality. All that really matters is that some of us see a gray hat and some of us see a brown hat. Its not likely that we'll never have an answer, but its not likely we'll ever know what happened to Jimmy Hoffa either.

How many times is this going to have to be asked/said? That's another question that remains unanswered.

Regards! Michaelson

Kit Walker · Post by **Kit Walker** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:45 am

binkmeisterRick wrote:
Renderking Fisk wrote:Next question: The Blues Brothers fedora: Black or Navy Blue?
Black. Definitely black.

Sorry Bink according to an interview w/Dan Ackroyd years ago he stated the hats, suits, and ties were dark navy blue because being a huge conspiracy theorist he refused to dress like those gov't agents that cover up things like alien encounters etc.

Ripper · Post by **Ripper** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:05 am

The next question would be then ...are aliens grey/gray or green......? Mulder...Scully are you out there?? I'm starting to think this whole Grey/gray issue is like beating a dead horse...it isn't going anywhere.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:15 am

Nope....but running around the barn is supposed to be good exercise.

Regards! Michaelson

inexpensive_jones · Post by **inexpensive_jones** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:24 pm

Why would only one object...a brown hat...be selectively affected to look grey when everything else looked the same? Other brown things on the film remain brown.

It's a strange pheonomina I know, but felt and film aren't always an accurate mix. I have no problem accepting that the hats in the 2 scenes in question are indeed grey, but with the testimonies of people who worked on the film, I am merely trying to speculate the possible cause of a hat they say is brown appearing to be grey. I know from my film shooting days that felt can photograph very differently from its original color while everything else looks fine.
Again, I have no problem with it being a grey hat. I think it goes better with a blue suit.
Regards

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:30 pm

inexpensive_jones wrote:Again, I have no problem with it being a grey hat. I think it goes better with a blue suit.
Regards

I think the fact that it goes better with a blue suit is why the hat appears gray in the film. How they made it gray seems to be the issue.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:57 pm

Like I said before, he had a light brown overcoat or trench.

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:20 pm

THIS is the color brown I see on the seaplane hat. This looks brown, AND gray at the same time,...to me anyway. The description in the Ebay as says: Chocolate Brown

Here's a link, maybe someone can host it so we don't have to click the link

http://img234.imageshack.us/my.php?image=851lk4.jpg

'Blues

IndyParise · Post by **IndyParise** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:01 pm

I can agree with that pic, Blues. That looks about right to me too.

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:25 pm

Indiana_Tone wrote:Yes, now accepting that the mannequin's hair is brown (leaving the reddish brown stuff out of it) what color does the hat look in comparison to the mannequin's brown hair? Gray, maybe?

We're not talking about what color that hat looks here, we're talking about what color the hat IS. I thought that's what this debate was about.
The hat in the above picture is from an Ebay auction, where the seller states that the color is "Chocolate Brown".

The reason I posted the pic is because it has the same color characteristics as the hat we are discussing. No need for

'Blues

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:03 pm

Ok, so let's say that the seller is wrong, and it isn't "chocolate" brown.
I agree with you on that one, because I owned an Optimo in chocolate brown, and G-MANN now owns that exact hat. He will tell you as well as I, that the hat in the above pic is NOT Chocolate by any means.

Now, that doesn't mean that the hat maker didn't NAME it chocolate brown, or that the hat isn't brown in any shade.
Even with all the other brown in the picture, I STILL see a brown hat, the same color as the hat I see in the seaplane scene.
To clarify again, I do NOT think it's the same color brown as the regular Indy hat we all know and love. I think it is a lighter shade of brown.
'Blues

UPDATE: I contaced the seller to ask about the color, stating it looked like a very light brown, almost a grey color compared to the rest of the pic.
Here is her response:
"Hi , the hat is brown a soft brown colour. I will try and send some more photos. Thanks"

If she sends more, I will post them
'B

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:15 pm

I still think this is the same hat worn by Ford. You can even see where there was a tight front pinch. Of course, this hat may actually be brown/brown.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:21 pm

I agree, Fedora. I think that is the one that they just plopped on Ford's head for those two scenes.

By the way, knowing when you mailed my gray AB, I thought it might come today. I guess not. Maybe tomorrow.

Gorak · Post by **Gorak** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:48 pm

With so many responses going back and forth on this topic I may have missed this inquiry but have we considered that the particular color we are seeing on the cairo henchman hat and the plane hat could be the "sand" color that was on the order list that was presented to us. I can see how this could be sandy but grey.
My wife will point somebody out and say, the one with the blonde hair and all I see are different shades of brown and when I pick one, I`m usually wrong.

by the way, my wife gave birth a beautiful baby girl...
Kya Leann Chavez.....now to find a fedora in size 0!!!!!

Ripper · Post by **Ripper** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:37 am

I found these on the site that cannot be named. They were listed as a "grey" stetson, looks tan in the first pic and grey in the second one. I haven't fixed the color, just something to look at.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:10 am

Just to throw my two cts. in here:

When I received the color samples from my felter, I got the brown and the grey color charts, as requested. Since the grey was on top, I looked through them first and decided, that non of these colors would be screen accurate enough to offer as an Indy grey. So I pulled out the brown color chart and close to the bottom was a swatch that looked EXACTLY like the brownish grey / greyish brown we see on screen. Even though the color CERTAINLY looked to be on the grey side in my opinion, the felter had put it on the brown color chart (and yes, there would have been place to put it on the grey color chart if he wanted to do so)

So, if I ever come around to make the grey hat from Raiders, my felter would still say it's a brown rawbody

Now what do you think of THAT?!

Regards,

Marc

doc riviere · Post by **doc riviere** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:52 am

Maybe the grey hats were rent as the nazis suit and other extras costumes ! it is why there is no trace of them in the archives. or maybe they were used for other lucasfilm production ( Tucker...) or ford kept them... times ago R.Swales told me he made sand grey for raiders

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:23 am

Gorak wrote: by the way, my wife gave birth a beautiful baby girl...
Kya Leann Chavez.....now to find a fedora in size 0!!!!!

Congratulations, Gorak! The fun has just begun!!

HIGH regards! Michaelson

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:48 am

Gorak wrote:With so many responses going back and forth on this topic I may have missed this inquiry but have we considered that the particular color we are seeing on the cairo henchman hat and the plane hat could be the "sand" color that was on the order list that was presented to us. I can see how this could be sandy but grey.

Did the order list you are referring to come from the historian at Paramount's archives? If so, I think you can throw that list out the window. Paramount doesn't have an archives or a historian.

Post by **Indy Magnoli** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:17 pm

Marc wrote:So, if I ever come around to make the grey hat from Raiders, my felter would still say it's a brown rawbody Now what do you think of THAT?!

Now this is getting more and more interesting. It sounds like we're coming to a point where we agree that we see a hat different from the Raiders Brown AND that we all see this particular shade of color the same whenever we encounter it elsewhere (as in another hat, hat body, etc)...

So, it seems that the real debate has now become, what does one call that color?

I call it grey, because brown, to me, is what Indy wears for the rest of the film.

Kind regards,
Magnoli

McFly · Post by **McFly** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:31 pm

Indy Magnoli wrote:So, it seems that the real debate has now become, what does one call that color? I call it grey, because brown, to me, is what Indy wears for the rest of the film.

I'll call it Michael.

I think I remember seeing a picture of Hemingway with a brown fedora on that looked gray - or a gray fedora that looked brown... or maybe it was somebody else??

In Christ,
Shane

Gorak · Post by **Gorak** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:09 am

Thank you Michaelson- It has been a blast already!!!!!!!!!

I really like the idea that the "other color" fedora could have been listed and/or made for the Nazi Henchman costume and that would fall directly in line with Fedora`s theory that his hat and Indy`s are one in the same, where, during the shoot, it was decided on the spot to change the hat and therefore the pinch can still be seen in it later. this would also include why Noodleman and 'others' recall with confidence that there was no "other color" fedora made for Indy.
Wow- this is starting to get more and more like the Jack the Ripper mystery!!!!The more we chip away at it, the more clear things get, and then they get fuzzy again! What fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IndyParise · Post by **IndyParise** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:12 am

Gorak wrote: Wow- this is starting to get more and more like the Jack the Ripper mystery!!!!The more we chip away at it, the more clear things get, and then they get fuzzy again! What fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes only not quite as bloody

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 4:06 am

If they're the same hat, the Cairo Nazi and Indy Grey, wouldn't it get dusty in Cairo, probably intentionally? Then, if the Oakland seaplane was shot next, just before or after Hawaii, wouldn't it still be a bit dirty, giving it a brown tint?

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:58 am

That hat in you post (3thoubucks) looks like my new AB grey.

Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:18 pm Post subject: hat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just took a few shots with both my brown and grey Adventurebilt side by side. Take a look how the grey looks?????

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y101/j ... C01449.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y101/j ... C01450.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y101/j ... C01451.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y101/j ... C01452.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y101/j ... C01453.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y101/j ... C01454.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y101/j ... C01455.jpg
_________________

dr. tyree · Post by **dr. tyree** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:44 pm

FWIW, I'm siding with the "the hat is gray" theory. If not, what color are the suit, shirt and tie? If a brown hat appears to be gray all of a sudden, what are the true colors of the suit that appears navy blue, the tie that appears maroon and the shirt that appears white? Its the same getup he wears at the end of the film, everything looks exactly as it did on the plane color wise, and it's a totally different location/focal length/setup and lens. To me, it's gotta be a gray hat.

your mileage may vary

Tyree

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:47 pm

Bending Oak, your grey hat looks grey, and it looks brown in some pics.
Kind of like how a brown hat looks brown, and can look grey in some pics.
'Blues

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:12 pm

Bending Oak, your grey hat looks grey, and it looks brown in some pics.
Kind of like how a brown hat looks brown, and can look grey in some pics.
'Blues

gorgive me but , huh.

please explain.

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:21 pm

This is what I'm talking about:

This hat is brown. I emailed the seller to be sure, and she verified it IS brown. I replied, "It looks very grey in the pic"
She replied that it is indeed brown, albeit a light brown.
That's what I mean. The grey hat can look brown, like in some of your pics, and this brown hat in MY pic looks alot like a grey hat to me.
'Blues

Rusty Jones · Post by **Rusty Jones** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:55 am

IndyParise wrote:
Snakewhip_Sable wrote: He says right in the movie, "One hat: black."
I can't believe I forgot that.

Dont forget again... I may have to bust out my elwood gear :c) (am I the only one with a blues bros outfit here in addition to indy?)

On topic:

Anyway, has there ever been a discussion of the sequence of filming... if the plane and steps scenes were shot before the rest of the movie or after. I know in the preproduction screen tests Tom Selleck was wearing a grey fedora right?

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:31 pm

IndyBlues wrote:This is what I'm talking about:

This hat is brown. I emailed the seller to be sure, and she verified it IS brown. I replied, "It looks very grey in the pic"
She replied that it is indeed brown, albeit a light brown.
That's what I mean. The grey hat can look brown, like in some of your pics, and this brown hat in MY pic looks alot like a grey hat to me.
'Blues

If an ebay seller said it was brown, then it must be!

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:34 pm

This is where I give up the fight. The hat was grey. I don't care either way anymore. I actually never did, just tried to add to the discussion.
You guys win, it is grey.
'Blues

Cassidy · Post by **Cassidy** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:30 pm

As a costume designer, wouldn't her job be essentially done when filming started? After all of the costumes are ready, wouldn't the job then pass to the wardrobe/prop department?

What I'm getting at is this - if the Clipper scene were filmed as a pick up, or second unit shoot, Nadoolman/Landis wouldn't have even been there.

I can't seem to find my Derek Taylor book anywhere to figure out when exactly the scene was shot in the production schedule, but I can't imagine one situation where she would have to be on set that day.

So, she could be right - maybe she never commissioned grey fedoras, but on the day of shooting, the wardrobe department, Ford or Spielberg could have said "We need a dressier looking hat," and someone could come up with the grey...

I'm sure someone has brought this up, I haven't read the whole thread yet...