Nadoolman in person...NO GREY HATS WORN BY FORD.

Havana · Post by **Havana** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:07 am

I'm not taking a position on either side of the hat color debate. I will say that she often states contradictory things about past projects. Regardless of who she is or anyone else involved with the production of Raiders, it's been 25 plus years. As any lawyer or historian will tell you, after so much time you just can't take a person's memory at face value. Photographs are the best source of evidence. Unfortunately, the photographic representation of the hat seems to be the source of this whole debate. I think the only thing that "might" settle this would be a behind the scenes production still taken independently of the movie camera and set lighting. A call sheet for the day would likely list a brown or gray hat as part of Ford's costume. That's probably buried in Paramount's archives somewhere.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:13 am

The problem I ran into from the get go was that Paramount's prop department did NOT keep the job sheets on what was pulled for the movie. They hadn't done that since the 50's. They'd get a list on what was needed for that day....they'd pull the items, and once used, they were either put BACK on the shelf, and costume sent back to costuming, or everything was returned to rental companies. That's why there's been such a debate over the gloves.....Wells Lamont or Midwest? Yes....and yes. It was what ever pair they grabbed at the time from the grips on set on any given day, and Paramount purchased both brands of gloves for use by their production people. I know, as I have (buried of course) a copy of an orignal invoice of the production department from that time period, ordering gloves, and both brands are listed....but no model numbers...just 'standard order required'.

So, that's been a head banger for years for those of us who made the phone calls. They 'remembered' what they did, but no paper trail to follow as none was ever kept after the films were in the can. They cleared the file cabinent and moved on to the next job.

Regards! Michaelson

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:06 pm

Havana wrote:Regardless of who she is or anyone else involved with the production of Raiders, it's been 25 plus years. As any lawyer or historian will tell you, after so much time you just can't take a person's memory at face value. Photographs are the best source of evidence. Unfortunately, the photographic representation of the hat seems to be the source of this whole debate. I think the only thing that "might" settle this would be a behind the scenes production still taken independently of the movie camera and set lighting.

You mean like the picture of Harrison Ford posing with some lady that has been posted here many times. It was obviously taken the day they were shooting the Pan Am clipper scene. It was outside in natural light with the Pan Am Clipper plane in the background. Ford was dressed in the blue suit that he wore during that scene and in the natural light he had on a definitely gray hat. Do you mean that kind of photographic evidence?

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:08 pm

Every single photograph anyone has EVER laid eyes on your entire life has been altered from reality.

Period.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:17 pm

Amen.

Regards! Michaelson

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:33 pm

agent5 wrote:Every single photograph anyone has EVER laid eyes on your entire life has been altered from reality.

Period.

Okay, next time I happen to come across a time machine, I'll go back to the day they filmed that scene and check out what color hat Ford has on for myself. In reality.

W-e-l-l, Marty. All we need is one point twenty one, jigawatts.

Gater · Post by **Gater** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:35 pm

DUDE...ya don't need plutonium, just use the Mr. Fusion!

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:38 pm

In another post, Strider posted this comment by Nadoolman:

Indy wore brown because brown was accessible.

Maybe he was not meant to wear anything but shades of brown?

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:55 pm

Buff,
Anymore room in the DeLorean for me, man?

I need a vacation badly.

I would love to discuss some of the deeper methodology of the gear with Mrs. Nadoolman-Landis, such as WHY they chose certain color schemes and so forth. To get to the root of the costume development. I'd be willing to bet that it was because Indy was an archaeologist and dig into the dirt and sand is the ulitmate reason that earth tones were used as well as being accessible at the time.
She is correct though. At the time of the late 70's, early 80's there were alot more browns found in clothing, especially mens, when compared to today. I recall my grandfathers closet filled to the brim with nasty brown polyester pants.

Yuk.

Gater · Post by **Gater** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:07 pm

Keep in mind that a lot of Indy's costume was based on the desert painting (you know the one I mean) of the character.

Rabittooth · Post by **Rabittooth** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:35 pm

Bufflehead Jones wrote: You mean like the picture of Harrison Ford posing with some lady that has been posted here many times. It was obviously taken the day they were shooting the Pan Am clipper scene. It was outside in natural light with the Pan Am Clipper plane in the background. Ford was dressed in the blue suit that he wore during that scene and in the natural light he had on a definitely gray hat. Do you mean that kind of photographic evidence?

Oooh...could someone post that here? That would go a long way for me personally to prove whether the hat was indeed gray or not.

-Rabittooth

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:26 pm

agent5 wrote:Buff,
Anymore room in the DeLorean for me, man? I need a vacation badly.

I would love to discuss some of the deeper methodology of the gear with Mrs. Nadoolman-Landis, such as WHY they chose certain color schemes and so forth. To get to the root of the costume development. I'd be willing to bet that it was because Indy was an archaeologist and dig into the dirt and sand is the ulitmate reason that earth tones were used as well as being accessible at the time.
She is correct though. At the time of the late 70's, early 80's there were alot more browns found in clothing, especially mens, when compared to today. I recall my grandfathers closet filled to the brim with nasty brown polyester pants.

Yuk.

Sure, but I get to drive.

Roads? We don't need roads.

Now, I think you are getting to the heart of her area of expertise. I think this is the reason she was hired. To do the research, development, and design of the costume. Once that was done, and the costumes were turned over to the wardrobe department and it was given to the actors to do their jobs, she had completed hers. I wonder if she was even on the sets during filming every day. That may help to explain why she has made statements about items of Indy's gear that we know are not correct. She knows what her original design concept was, but there may have been little variations as to what they actually used on the day of shooting.

It would be interesting to talk to her about the research and development of Indy's gear. I am sure that she did a ton of research, some of it is obvious to us, but I am sure there are things that we would never imagine.

I don't ever have any disrespect for her, just because she says some things that we know are not correct. I can't even remember when I saw Raiders for the first time because it was so long ago. To expect her to remember each and every little detail from that long ago is unrealistic. To her it was just a job, not some holy rite of passage.

I know you made the comment about photogaphic evidence. A lot of people believe that a crime most likely will not be solved unless there are witnesses. Actually, eyewitnesses are usually the most unreliable source of evidence that we deal with in police work.

I find it funny then, everytime this gray/brown issue comes up, we all want to hear what Spielberg and Ford have to say on the subject. We all want to hear from the most unreliable source, an eyewitness. I am just as guilty as anyone else, I would love to hear what Spielberg and Ford have to say about it.

I think that the photo of Ford posing with the lady outside the Pan Am Clipper plane, is going to be the closest thing to proof that we are ever going to have about this issue. There is still going to be people that will argue about what color the hat in that photo really is.

It has been twenty five years. This gray/brown hat debate is definitely from the cold case files.

Ripper · Post by **Ripper** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:03 pm

The thing I have always wondered was , if his hat is grey/gray on the plane, then where did he put his brown one? I only saw one suitcase, you wouldnt think that he would just throw it in there with his other gear, would you? Not a lot of room for it, it wasn't a folding travel hat. If he did just put it in his bag , it would account for the reverse taper in Cairo, but the raven bar was before he got to Cairo and no taper there, so that didn't happen. I was bored and had time to think about it.....just my opinion and observation....I might be wrong.

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:09 pm

This would also fall in line with Indy getting back on the Bantu Wind or meeting up with Katanga after the Nazi Sub Base went meltdown. Since Indy's "stuff" was brought on board, he left his fedora, bag, whip (not counting the deleted scene), suitcase, etc on ship. It would also explain his blue suit again in Washington afterwards. It doesn't explain which fedora (or if there was just one), just would be weird if he got to Washington in a Nazi Uniform and went and purchased an identical blue suit.

Oh, I have the novelization, but haven't looked at it in awhile, so I'm not sure how close to the mark I am in my statement above.

Ripper · Post by **Ripper** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:13 pm

True......I guess after all it Is JUST a movie.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:11 pm

Rabittooth wrote:
Bufflehead Jones wrote: You mean like the picture of Harrison Ford posing with some lady that has been posted here many times. It was obviously taken the day they were shooting the Pan Am clipper scene. It was outside in natural light with the Pan Am Clipper plane in the background. Ford was dressed in the blue suit that he wore during that scene and in the natural light he had on a definitely gray hat. Do you mean that kind of photographic evidence?
Oooh...could someone post that here? That would go a long way for me personally to prove whether the hat was indeed gray or not.

-Rabittooth

Hey Rabittooth,

Here is a thread that was started because of that pic. The picture that I am referring to is in the first post.

Harrison Ford is wearing a gray hat with his navy blue suit. The lady standing directly next to him has brown hair. His hat is definitely gray, her hair is definitely brown.

Now, I understand that since it has been 25 years since this photo was taken, that today, her hair could be gray with brown undertones, but that should not enter into this discussion.

CairoIndy · Post by **CairoIndy** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:12 pm

Agent 5,as Raiders was a period film I doubt that the then current fashions(late '70s) would have influenced the choice of colour for Indy's costume,in fact Nadoolman has said that Indy's costume was deliberately all in warm earth tones firstly to link him with his earthy archelogical job and also to seperate him from the nazis in 'colder' black.Different colours affect the way we see characters and Nadoolman would have worked closely with Spielberg to find out how he wanted the audience to respond(nothing would have been accidental).One of the character traits brown represents is stubborness(which our hero has in spades!

).

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:14 pm

agent5 wrote:
She is correct though. At the time of the late 70's, early 80's there were alot more browns found in clothing, especially mens, when compared to today. I recall my grandfathers closet filled to the brim with nasty brown polyester pants.

Yuk.

Exactly, I recall sports cars were even available in brown. Remember the brown Camaros, Firebirds, and Corvettes of the early 80s?
I always used to think, who the heck would want a brown sports car??
Brown was popular at the time.
'Blues

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:20 pm

Sports cars should only come in one color, arrest me red.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:06 pm

Agent 5,as Raiders was a period film I doubt that the then current fashions(late '70s) would have influenced the choice of colour for Indy's costume

I was only making that assumption on the fact that she said the color brown was easily available at the time of the shoot, which was in 1980. I'm sure discussion of the character traits you describe were gone over first and then a check to see what kinds of materials were available and in what colors 'at that time' would have determined what was purchased and which costumes could be done or perhaps needed to be changed, etc., based on the materials available at that time. You make very good points...most of which are completely overlooked by the casual moviegoer.

Harrison Ford is wearing a gray hat with his navy blue suit. The lady standing directly next to him has brown hair. His hat is definitely gray, her hair is definitely brown.

Yes...in that particular picture. That does not prove in any way what color the hat actually was. If you had 10 men taking that same pic with different cameras and different film, then taking photo processsing into account, you'd more than likely have 10 slightly different pictures.
They are simply manmade recreations of reality. None of them are accurate. This was one of the very first fundamantals we were taught in art school...that no photo will accurately portrait reality so it is up to the artist to choose his colors and make the painting his/hers. But, as pointed out, many gearheads want what is seen in those pics and there's nothing at all wrong with that. I just happen to be in the other camp.

Up to this point not one of us is wrong or right, but the pieces of the puzzle are showing themselves for us to piece together over time. Soon more research will be done and more info will be uncovered. Who knows? Perhaps the hat will show itself someday.

CairoIndy · Post by **CairoIndy** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:48 pm

Does an actual Raiders hat still exist anywhere?-I would LOVE to see pics of an actual Raiders hat

.Actual screen used costume always looks so different to what we see on screen( for instance the distressing in the pics of screen used TOD and LC jackets I've seen looks awful-but great on screen)...I'm just picturing this big vault somewhere with laser alarms all over it with the actual Raiders hat sitting on a pedestal in the middle!

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:11 pm

CairoIndy wrote:Does an actual Raiders hat still exist anywhere?-I would LOVE to see pics of an actual Raiders hat .Actual screen used costume always looks so different to what we see on screen( for instance the distressing in the pics of screen used TOD and LC jackets I've seen looks awful-but great on screen)...I'm just picturing this big vault somewhere with laser alarms all over it with the actual Raiders hat sitting on a pedestal in the middle!

Well not exactly lasers.

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:16 pm

Yeah, I'm thinking tarantulas, hidden spikes, bottemless pits, poisen darts, giant boulders,...and last but not least,.....P.O.ed Hovitos!!
'Blues

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:26 pm

agent5 wrote:Up to this point not one of us is wrong or right, but the pieces of the puzzle are showing themselves for us to piece together over time. Soon more research will be done and more info will be uncovered. Who knows? Perhaps the hat will show itself someday.

Yeah, wouldn't that be great. Of course, I already know one thing, if it shows up, I won't be able to afford it. :evil:

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:49 pm

agent5 wrote:Yes...in that particular picture. That does not prove in any way what color the hat actually was. If you had 10 men taking that same pic with different cameras and different film, then taking photo processsing into account, you'd more than likely have 10 slightly different pictures.
They are simply manmade recreations of reality. None of them are accurate. This was one of the very first fundamantals we were taught in art school...that no photo will accurately portrait reality so it is up to the artist to choose his colors and make the painting his/hers. But, as pointed out, many gearheads want what is seen in those pics and there's nothing at all wrong with that. I just happen to be in the other camp.

Like they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. And, in this case, the picture is good enough for me.

Yes, you might have ten slightly different pictures. But, the hat would not go from gray to green to purple to red. You would have ten slightly different shades of gray on the hat and ten slightly different shades of brown on the ladies' hair. But, the hat would still be gray and the hair would still be brown. You can see the difference in the two colors right there about a foot apart. The lighting is not different on his hat and her hair.

In every picture that we have of this hat that Indy wears with his blue suit, the hat appears gray. Inside, outside, daytime, nighttime, Saturdays too, it appears gray.

It appears gray even with other objects in the same picture with it, that are brown. Inside the Pan Am Clipper plane with movie lights on, it appears gray with someone else wearing a brown hat that appears brown. Outside the Pan Am Clipper plane, it appears gray next to a woman with brown hair, photographed in natural light. Inside the S.F. City Hall with movie lights, it appears gray with other people in the shot with brown items on.

Every single time that we see Indiana Jones wearing a blue suit, his hat appears gray. Every single time that we see Indiana Jones wear any other color, mostly browns, his hat is brown. When he has on a blue suit, it doesn't matter if he is inside, outside, in artificial light, in natural light, photographed by professionals, or photographed by amateurs, his hat appears gray. I might not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but that makes me believe that the dang hat actually was gray.

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:11 pm

1. To me, the hat in the picture (the one in front of the plane) is indubitably brown. Eye of the beholder and all that, I guess.

2. A brown hat with a blue suit makes perfect sense, just like brown shoes and a brown belt.

3. Why would Indy pack 2 hats to go to Nepal and points in the Middle East?? After being done with the plane, he'd have virtually no use for the grey fedora.

4. I've hesitated posting this, for reasons that should be obvious, but here is a (redacted to try to avoid any unpleasantness) copy of an email forwarded to me by someone who shall remain nameless. It is fully consistent with what Ms. Nadoolman has stated.

Subject: COW, colors, controversy
From: "Steve Nxxxxx" <xxxxx@paramount.gx.gx.com>
Date: Thu, June 10, 2006 10:11 am
To: [redacted]
[redacted]
Priority: Normal
Options: View Full Header | View Printable Version |
Bounce |
View as HTML

[redacted],

Watching the posts today at COW, Bill and Todd (stunts)too, since we
have the time right now to check stuff out. This may help, if anyone
wishes to know these facts from archives. [redacted]

IJ character was posited to be a man wearing earth tone clothing as
trademarks. Off field he was a professor, in period suits.
Throughout he wore brown fedoras for all three movies and no other
colors were designated for him in character, nor did he wear any
other. This was storyboarded, ok'd by: Lucas, Spielberg, Marshall,
in pre-production for Raiders, etc. Quick calls to Levy/Fox,
confirmed this. Same is true for the rest of his costume.

It is also part of Lucas' marketing strategy in late '82 for Kenner
to offer action figures by the same trademark. It was and is
important. A brown, 30s era fedora.

There is a poster there at COW you have addressed: 'Indiana Ken' I
believe that posted .jpegs of himself we assume. He pointed out what
people are seeing is light and shadow. From a 20 million motion
picture, to low res 30k .jpeg any color under the rainbow will be
seen by the observer. Factor in the visual medium they are looking
at and anything is possible. But the hats were brown.

[redacted]

Good job, [redacted]. Look forward to the 2nd unit hat sample. Yes, mail it.

Steve Nxxxxxxxx
Production
LucasFilm
Paramount, IJ4

Now, the email may be phony baloney, I don't know. I would tend to doubt it, because it would be an extremely silly thing to fake, and for a very silly reason. (Anyone not affiliated with COW or the passion for IJ gear would find this debate ludicrous and a waste of time, most likely.) I'm posting it here because I figure the forum exists for the dissemination of exactly this type of information, and some people at least would want to see it. I certainly don't want to drag the conversation back into negative directions it has veered in the past. Obviously if the mods don't like it, they're free to delete and/or edit as they see fit.

There. Disclaimers issued. Do as you will.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:20 pm

Okay, we know where you got that little tidbit of knowledge from. His writing style sticks out like a sore thumb, even though it is signed by someone else.

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:22 pm

I didn't think it would be much of a secret.

Again, I make no representations as to its genuineness, because I have no way of verifying same. Just putting it out there.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:42 pm

Problem is, all that 'information' has appeared in these pages of this forum for years, and were posted by individuals who've argued the same thing over and over again. Considering Paramount Studios HAS no 'historical archives', and Lucasfilm has only a warehouse full of old props, that places this email in about the same place as everyone else's posts ....strictly unsupported opinion. The key word here is 'unsupported'.

As you say, take it for what it's really worth. It's as good an argument as has been offered up before here, and by folks we've known for years. Unless honest to gosh documentation is offered to back one side or the other, agent5 has pretty much nailed the door closed on this one, in my opinion.....it's a toss of the coin....and no one is right...and no one is wrong.

Well said, agent5!

What I'm enjoying is that we have new blood pursuing this debate, and fresher eyes to look at the evidence.

Regards! Michaelson

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:14 pm

Regardless if one was used, two of the hats appear gray on my tv. That is enough for me. Plus, I think gray goes better with the blue jacket. Then there is that Nazi hat that looks to be gray, and has the remnants of a tight front crease. Coincidence? Perhaps. Fedora

Antone · Post by **Antone** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:51 am

I have decided that the hat in those scenes was gray.

No, I'm not going to back it up with any evidence, I've simply decided that it must have been gray. That way, I can refer to my gray AB as my Seaplane hat. Otherwise, I've have to call it my Cairo Nazi hat, and I'd just rather not think of it in those terms.

Antone

IndianaBlues · Post by **IndianaBlues** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:00 am

that_dog wrote:1. To me, the hat in the picture (the one in front of the plane) is indubitably brown. Eye of the beholder and all that, I guess.

2. A brown hat with a blue suit makes perfect sense, just like brown shoes and a brown belt.

Well after watching this arguement pop up time and time again over the past 4 years, I'm going to jump on the bandwagon and say that I've always seen it as grey, even before I'd discovered COW and this subject I thought it was grey...

Secondly whenever I put on my brown Fed Deluxe with my work shirt and pants, I always see myself in the mirror and swap it for my grey Fedora (not Indy) whenever the shirt I'm wearing is blue, every time...grey and blue match a lot better than brown and blue in my opinion.

Ripper · Post by **Ripper** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:01 am

It would be a lot easier .... and cheaper if it was brown, I'm still up in the air on this one, I just finished watching Raiders and Ill admit it looks grey/gray. You can see brown in some moments, faint , kind of brown hues or highlights. I guess it comes down to what you see.....and who really cares, it won effect your day in the end.

JerseyJones · Post by **JerseyJones** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:06 am

I don't care ! I am STILL making Camptown Model 1945's in Granite Grey !

But a great bit ot research.

Ken

P.S. Nice to see you Mr. Michaelson

Post by **Mike** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:08 am

Funny how Mr. "Steve Nxxxxxxxx" switches from a non-existent paramount email account to being a Lucasfilm employee all in the same email.

I think we need to quit quoting this guy.

Mike

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:22 am

LOL!! lets keep that one

still seems funny when u work for Lucasfilm LTD that you still misspell the company

but hey what do i know iam just a European fan

even Funnier , Paramount is just a distribution company
Steve NXXXXX doesnt know that

hey wherent there alot less XX's in there last time

when robert posted this?

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:25 am

This one may never be solved, as Michaelson says above. Until the vault is open (by Geraldo?) and the gray fedora (or no gray fedora) appears, we'll never know. We have some people that say no gray fedoras were used by Harrison. We have Swales stating in the past he made two(?) gray fedoras for Harrison or did he say just for Raiders? Can't recall. Again, that's word of mouth, not an actual receipt for two gray fedoras.

Until an actual receipt of bill of sale is found stating One (or two) Gray/Grey Fedoras for Harrison Ford for Raiders.... even a gray fedora in the archives at Lucasfilm may not be enought "real" info.

But also, no receipt doesn't close the door either. Ugh! My head hurts....

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:55 am

LOL !!! Tone that is wonderfull haha ,
hey Robert uses the same email program as you do ?

Fisher price?

best

Dirk

inexpensive_jones · Post by **inexpensive_jones** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:02 am

All right, I have kept to myself in this conversation, but as a photographer I would like to shed a little light on the gray hat debate. So sit back, grab a cup of coffee and stimulate your brainwaves cause this might hurt a bit.

Here goes… Already mentioned in a different thread are the different degrees of Kelvin that affect the appearance of color from the TV or computer monitor. This however is an overall color shift and if I’m not mistaken, would affect every object’s color, not just the hat. So I don’t believe that is a viable answer to its grayness.
I believe that a combination of factors may have turned the appearance of a brown hat to gray. These are:

1. Ambience. The colors around an object cast hues upon the object.
a. The plane scene is overcast (gray) outside and ambient light/ or a simulation thereof is inside the airplane. This is a cooler cast of light and all objects will lose some of their warm tones. A tell tale sign of this is skin tones. Compared to the rest of the movie, IJ looks pale compared to sunny outdoor scenes.
b. Objects around the scene in both instances are gray. So not only is the lighting cooler, the actual objects around are as well.

2. Different film is used for different situations and the characteristics of each film relates to light differently. Remember, this was not shot digitally but on film.
a. Simply some films have a cooler cast to them while others have a warmer cast. This too can be an overall shift, but some films are temperamental with specific colors. I know that Fuji films in general accentuate greens and blues while Kodak is heavy in reds and yellows.

3. A better explanation briefly touched on in a previous post is that different light (also measured by degrees of Kelvin) radiates different wavelengths that have a direct effect on the appearance of color.
a. The color of an object is made up of the light-wave-lengths that it cannot absorb. In other words your brown hat is every color except brown! That is the color it cannot absorb so it reflects it. So the type of light that illuminates an object can dramatically change it’s color. For instance if a light source is heavy on the yellow spectrum a gray hat can appear brown!
b. Since both scenes in question are indoor shots (and shot to appear indoors), the lighting they would use would be of a cooler tone.

4. Felt is a light absorber because of the many angles of reflection from the material, and in my experience has the greatest tendency to color shift on film, (green is the worst of the worst).

The facts that we don’t have are “What emulsion type was used on those segments of filming?” and “What types of lighting were used?” Although I could make educated guesses, they would only be that.
My conclusion then is this; I believe that a combination of these 4 circumstances could in fact change the appearance of a brown fedora to a grayish hue.
I’ve gone over the movie recently and have concluded, to my satisfaction anyway, that the hat on the plane is in fact, brown. I at least see brown tones mixed in there. I have a harder time with the last scene on the steps though. It just doesn’t look at all brown.
There! This should make everything as clear as mud!
Good Luck
Inexpensive Jones

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:11 am

Is there anything in that archive dvd that talk has been floating around here about?

This is interesting enough. I found it on ebay this morning but site rules say I can't tell you for what. In any case, it's very interesting.

'During 'BLANKS' first historic trip to Skywalker Ranch in 1996, detailed photographs and video were taken not only of the props and miniatures from Star Wars, but also from the Indiana Jones Trilogy.'

I've been told that several companies have able to put together very detailed pics of costumes, props, set pieces, etc., from all the SW and Indy films for possible liscensing. I'd love to track one of these dvd's down someday. I know some average Joe out there knows someone who has one or can get one. I think it's only a matter of time before someone does and when they do I think alot of cans of worms will be open for discussion.

I do know that when the people from the Chicago exhibit were allowed into the archives to pick costumes and props for their exhibit, I was told there were literally rows and rows of costumes from each Indy film. He said you would be surprised to see it. That tan/grey hat is in there somewhere.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:14 am

Ah, yet another professional in our ranks! Very good.

Personally I like working in the digital field, as I can change the Kelvin light color of my studio bulbs, then re-white balance my production video cameras. It all looks the same to the naked eye, but it definitely changes what absorbs what in your picture. Film, on the other hand, and as discussed in your post, is another animal.....

Tone, as to Strider's having his MkVII signed...the only 'downside' I can even think of would be, if it were MY bag, it would immediatetly be taken out of service and placed in my collection for display. That bag just became an instant collectable rather than a daily use item.

agent5, are you talking about the warehouse video that was shot back in the 90's, mentioned by Fedora, and now being transferred to DVD?

Regards! Michaelson

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:31 pm

Skywalker Ranch

I got a real kick ou of the fact that the Skywalker ranch has it own fire House.

SkyChief · Post by **SkyChief** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:58 pm

Kt Templar wrote:

Where is this picture from and what is it of?

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:10 pm

That's from the walkthrough DVD we are working on sending out.

It's hard to know which jacket or hat that is. Which film is anybodies guess.

It was filmed after LC so I suppose that is a likely candidate.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:12 pm

agent5, are you talking about the warehouse video that was shot back in the 90's, mentioned by Fedora, and now being transferred to DVD?

In my first sentence, yes. That ebay tidbit just popped up today.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:16 pm

Ah, I missed that line.

It's interesting, but nothing that will answer these questions. I've had a copy of that video for almost 9+ years now.

Regards! michaelson

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:33 pm

still the fact remains that Denis Muren who is also in that seen wears a brown fedora, which looks brown :

Post by **Indy Magnoli** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:57 pm

Yes, we have photos of Denis Muren wearing what looks like THE Raiders Hat inside and outside the plane. So if Indy's hat is brown in reality but grey on film... what color is Muren's hat in reality? Black? Purple? Red?

They did a fine job tweaking the colors to look like Raiders brown.

Kind regards,
Magnoli

Flash Gordon · Post by **Flash Gordon** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:57 pm

All of that ambient lighting stuff is a little screwy. Here's why:

Ambient light would affect everything in the photo. Hats, suits, flesh tones, hair color, etc., etc.

Why would only one object...a brown hat...be selectively affected to look grey when everything else looked the same? Other brown things on the film remain brown.

I'm also a professional. I've been painting portraits for thirty years, (clients: Presidents of this, Chairmen of that, for M.I.T., Columbia University, Boston University, University of Michigan, Dartmouth, courtrooms, boardrooms, hospitals, etc.,etc. ) My business is dealing with color combinations and ambient lighting. I paint from life and also use photos.

If you have Photoshop, try tweaking the color on the whole photo so that only a brown hat looks grey and everything else remains unchanged. Impossible!

The hat was grey!

Post by **Indy Magnoli** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:07 pm

Would someone make a collage of photos please?

I seem to remember the Cairo Nazi's Hat, Indy's Seaplane hat (inside and out), and Indy's Washington Hat all looking exactly the same shade of grey. Secondly, Indy's standard hat in various lightings, and Muren's hat inside and out, again, all look the same to me, that classic Raiders brown.

Sure they get darker in shadows, etc, but the brain corrects that for me, and they still all look the same.

Now, were talking only Raiders here, the other films are another question.

Kind regards,
Magnoli

Nadoolman in person...NO GREY HATS WORN BY FORD.

indy