Was the Raiders and TOD holster.....

[IndyParise]

....actually based off of the U.S. WWII victory holsterhttp://www.ima-usa.com/product_info.php ... cts_id/691

here is the victory holster


and the raiders style



and the TOD one



does anyone else see a similarity?

mods, sorry if the pics are too big, I dont know what size they are.

[Swindiana]

Since the ToD holster was a real British one for the Webley revolver I can't see how that could be.

For the Raiders though, I'm not sure. To me it looks more like a shorter Webley holster. Maybe somone will chime in if there actually was a famous one made like this or if it was custom for the movie.

Regards,
Swindiana

[Michaelson]

Just about everything picked up for Raiders by the prop team was old military surplus, so from what I'm seeing here, and what I was told back in 84, I wouldnt' be a BIT surprised if the original Raiders holster was indeed a reworked Victory holster. The Victory holster was originally made to hold either an N AND K frame Smith and Wesson revolver, just in case someone was reissured a WW1 Smith 1917 during the Second World War. The Raiders holsters does the same thing...it will hold both frames, with the change of position of the flap hold down strap (if you've never noticed, there are two holes in the strap to for this adjustment). After the prop department and special effects got done with it, all identifying marks showing it to be military surplus would have disappeared.

As to TofD, it is indeed a Webley holster, and not even the same design. Minnesota Jones actually owns this prop, and if you do a search, you should find the photos of this particular holster when he received it.

Regards! Michaelson

[hanson]

If you guys want to see some victory mdls in action as well as some cool holsters and a cool jacket, check out the serial from the 40's, SPYSMASHER. It has some familiar stunts,gags,gear,etc. you won't believe. it has those old CrisCraft mahogany boats, german uboats, minecar chases, vehicles over cliffs, motorcyles,and a flying wing. and this was just from my memory, i have it on vhs somewhere. i'll have to review it,great fun.hanson.

[Shawnkara]

I don't know. If you've ever seen one of those in person, that "USMC" is stamped pretty deep. Really no way to get rid of it. You would also have to cut off that tab, remove the stud, move it, try to cover the hole it would leave, add the strap, etc. There are military holsters out there that are already the same style as the Indy holsters, with almost no modification needed. I personally think the Raiders holster possibly and the ToD for sure were the Webley .455. IMA sells a replica, I used to have one. Out of the box, it's an almost exact ToD holster, right down to the color. I cut the flap on mine down a bit, cropped the bottom. I also sanded the patent finish off of it, it ended up the same color as natural roo hide. A quick coat of brown shoe polish brought it as close to the RAIDERS color as any reproduction I have ever seen anywhere. Basically, it's the perfect ToD holster and with VERY minimal modifications, it's the perfect Raiders holster. So if they had a few left over from Raiders they had not modified, there's your ToD holster. I would say the Webley .455 is the best suspect for both holsters. It also has a quick release belt strap, and we all know there are scenes in the movies where the holster is missing from both Ford and the stuntmen, probably because it got in the way. All reproductions I've seen or owned have the stitched strap, which means you have to remove the whole belt to get it off. Mine was far darker, nearly black. And looking at the pic now, I recall I didn't cut the flap. I actually cut the top of the holster down so the flap would fold over farther and I moved the strap.

[Michaelson]

Not all issued Victory flap holsters were marked. In the lend-lease program during the war, NOTHING was marked. The same for anything that was issued for the 'home guard' in England and the U.S., where all the Smith 1917 and HE's were issued.

Sorry, I don't agree with you at all on this one. The shape and size of the Raiders holster, and the TofD holster are NOTHING alike in terms of flap size, operation/function and shape. You can change the Webley holster to hold the Smith, but due to the huge size of the Webley frame, it doesn't work the other way 'round, as though the Smith N frame IS big, it's still not as massive as the Webley, and the design completely different as the WEbley is a top break. The flap has to have the odd round shape to allow for the mechanism. Not needed for the Smith, and therefore the flap is longer to cover the two frames I mentioned above...the K AND N frame revolvers issued during the War. A K-frame Victory would get lost in a Webley holster.

Keep in mind, the prop department had to grab and run with the list of wanted items to make the movie. In TofD, there WAS no revolver ever holstered, remember? The 'stunt' Colt went out the car window, and Indy was firing his Smith out the back of the car while wearing his Tux. His holster remained empty for the entire movie. The holster used in TofD was for a 6 inch barreled Webley, and therefore 2 inches longer than required for the gun he was actually using.

The Raiders revolver WAS holstered and used...and had a 4 inch barrel. The holster exactly fit the revolver. The prop department had neither the time NOR the need to take a Webley hoster and make such drastic changes in order for it to fit the Smith HE, as there already WAS a holster built and used FOR that revolver...and it was ready and available to grab and go for the film when they gathered the props.

Regards! Michaelson

[Shawnkara]

I can see your point, but that victory would have required far more mods to become what we see in Raiders. And, yes, a smaller revolver does get lost in the Webley. I know mine did but the slack was not that severe. I was just pointing out that, if an existing holster had been modified to create the Raiders holster, I think it's highly unlikely it was that victory. There are far closer matches in appearance. But really, unless someone knows of a pre-existing EXACT match to the Raiders holster I'd have to say nothing was modified. It was based on something, but fabricated from scratch.

[Michaelson]

I see your point, but like I said (and more than likely, not very clearly ) was that the 'Victory' holster was made to allow use for both N and K frame revolvers. That's the reason for the two holes in the flap strap. Though the Victory sat deeper in the holster, it still worked being a 4 inch barrel, and still the same length as the N frame HE.

Lee Keppler had the original Raiders holster in his hands back in 84, as well as one of the original revolvers, and that's what his holster is patterned exactly from....and it's nothing like a Webley holster...but when I had the prototype in my hands, both my K frame model 10 AND my N frame 44 mag fit the holster just fine.

Regards! Michaelson

[hanson]

hey michaelson, you are saying that your smith .44 N-frame fit the tod holster and not Lee's Raiders rig aren't you ? None of my N-frames with adj. sites would fit Lee's rig;however, a 5" fixed site gun fits Lee's very well. Once again I must recommend SPYSMASHER, I sent Lee a copy of this serial years ago and we agreed that they used alot of Victory models and the jacket and holster were definantly inspirations for Raiders. I think this is also where the' Barnaby Jones' method of shooting developed. Most of the characters sling their guns forward as they fire as if to add velocity, much as Indy did in his first shot in the RAVEN BAR shootout. If you can't find this serial and would like to view it, I'm sure we can make it available for you to view. I'm half way watching it now and the jacket is below the belt length,has action pleats,and ,I think,waist adjustment straps. The holster looks to be 2 pieces of leather, with what looks like the quick detatch pre-ALICE attachment devices. regards hanson.

[J_Weaver]

It was based on something, but fabricated from scratch.

I think this is most likely.

I may be way off here, but wasn't the Victory Model holster made just to fit the medium frame Victory Model revolver and the M1917 or M1917/42 holster for the N frame revolvers?

[hanson]

i think your right about that as i have never studied these in great detail but it seems the limiting factor on the victory holsters and Lee's is the bbl has to be under 5'' and no target sites will fit.regards hanson.

[Michaelson]

hey michaelson, you are saying that your smith .44 N-frame fit the tod holster and not Lee's Raiders rig aren't you ? hanson.

Where did you get that, hanson? That's not what I said at all, and I said it pretty clearly. I said my K frame model 10 4 inch .38 special and my N-frame 44 mag model 29 4 inch barrel both fit my Raiders rig perfectly, only requiring the move of the holes on the strap. Nothing I've ever owned ever fit a TofD holster worth a darn except a Webley.

Regards! Michaelson

[hanson]

I got it from my Keppler rig that won't take a target sited N-frame with a 4" or 5" 29. It will take my mdl 58 and my 5" .44 special 2 HE. Could you have a streched Lee rig and i need t do some stretching?

[Swindiana]

How well does the Webley holster take the Colt NS? The Colt being slightly shorter than the Webley, or?

Regards,
Swindiana

[binkmeisterRick]

Well, depending also on the angle and size of the grip, one revolver might not fit well enough in a different holster to allow the flap to close. Case in point, I have a WWII S&W Victory (with a stamped style Army holster) and a Russian Nagant 1895 revolver with its native flap holster. I can pretty much fit either gun in either holster, except that the difference of the grip (and flap) angles makes it impossible to close the flaps. The holsters are cut for their respective weapons.

Now I've seen images (and in person) plenty of holsters from the era that were styled differently, yet still were able to carry the same gun. Some flap holsters had plugs, some didn't. Some had the flap holes right on the flap, some had the extra strip of leather which wrapped around the front of the flap like Indy's. Go figure. It's a holster.

[Michaelson]

I got it from my Keppler rig that won't take a target sited N-frame with a 4" or 5" 29. It will take my mdl 58 and my 5" .44 special 2 HE. Could you have a streched Lee rig and i need t do some stretching?

sigh.

hanson, please go back and re-read my post. I said I tested the prototype. I have no idea what he did once he went into production. The prototype fit both my guns, and my 29 was a 29-2 4 inch with adjustable sights.

Michaelson

[dr. tyree]

Hey, Hanson, Spy Smasher rules! Love those holsters and ww1 smith and wessons!

[hanson]

Michaelson, you did say prototype. My misunderstanding, all I can say is oops and it was past my bedtime, must pay attention to details at all times. sorry,hanson.

[hanson]

Glad someone else has seen and enjoys Spysmasher. I saw it in 1978 on tv cut into a movie. I thought this is the way movies should be made. Needless to say, after Raiders, I looked for years and finally found it in the "Serials" section of Suncoast. I also got Jungle Girl and it has the rope bridge gag done with live people. Not as spectacular as TOD, but amazing for it's day. You should check this one out too, DR. Tyree. regards,hanson.