3 sizes too big (Federation Deluxe this time)

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 4:50 am

I sanded this hat thinner also, still, the Deluxe is stiffer (the felt undergoes "25% more felting and shrinking" than the Regular Fed), and bashing gives it more taper than the Regular. - Anyway, this hat is 3 sizes too big, folded sweat, extra sweat stuffing, pleat under the ribbbon in the right front dent, cinched ribbon.

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:52 am

The back looks really low. Does it still angle back like that if it is raised an 3/4 - 1" in back, or is the back dropped that low to produce that angle?

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 12:03 pm

Anyway, this hat is 3 sizes too big, folded sweat, extra sweat stuffing,

I know this technique works very well to get what you are after, but does it bother you a little bit that the hat does not fit close to your head(sweatband area) like Indy's fedora does? Does this bit of inaccuracy cause a problem in overal accuracy, to you, personally? Or, are you willing to give up one facet in order to achieve the others? His hat, at the sweatband area does not look like a larger hat on a smaller head, if you get my drift. Still that hat looks good there, but I have a feeling if viewed from underneath, it might look a bit odd. Regards, Fedora

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:45 pm

Fedora, you have a good point. Look at the top silhouette shot from the side. You can tell the hat is too big. Look how the front pinch where it ends at the brim looks like it is a half inch out in front of his forehead. On the side shot of Ford, the front pinch is almost perfectly in line with Ford's forehead. Ford has on a hat that is the correct size for his head. Why would you think that they would purposely purchase a hat that is three sizes too big for the actor's head?

Feraud · Post by **Feraud** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:41 pm

Didn't Harrison Ford get measured at H.J.'s hatshop for his hat? Do we think he was using a hat 3 sizes too big?

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:10 pm

My Deluxe is 1/8 lower in back and 1/8 taller in front than the Regular. I could make the Deluxe the same as the Regular by just teter tottering an 1/8 lower in front and 1/8 higher in back. The front of my Regular is 7/8 taller than the back, and the front of my Deluxe is 1 inch taller than the back. In this shot, the front of this hat is about 1 inch taller than the back- 3 1/4 vs. 4 1/4 .

Shawnkara · Post by **Shawnkara** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:11 pm

I don't think that 3thou is necessarily trying to say these tricks were used for Ford's hat. He's working on ways to achieve that distinct and elusive 'RAIDERS' look, that's all. Some of his tricks may be unconventional, but if it works, it works.

On a side note, I think it's entirely possible that Ford's hat was a bit large and was maybe cinched up at some point. From photos and such of Ford, he doesn't really seem to be a "hat guy". If you're not a hat guy, wearing a snug hat is annoying. He may have picked one that was a bit loose for comfort, only to realize during filming that it did not stay on his head. And, so, it may have been tightened using any number of methods.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:24 pm

If it's a Poet, it has less taper than a Fed, thinner softer felt, and probably wouldn't have to be 3 sizes too big. My forehead is vertical, Ford's angles back. Stuffing wouldn't be noticealbe in that area where it's most noticeable on my head. Still, considering this forehed

How can the sweat be touching the front of his head this shot?

Tone, the Regular is just roomier after bashing? Both are 59's

Shawnkara · Post by **Shawnkara** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:33 pm

Ford does indeed have an odd head shape. I've certainly noticed that from sculpting it so many times trying to get it right. Another explanation to a possibly cinched hat could lay in his head shape. If they measured lower (above the eyebrows) I think it would be at least a size larger than if it were measured to be worn high. Ford did wear his hat high in many scenes, even action scenes. The need for wearing it that high may have been discovered while filming, and the slightly conical shape to Ford's head meant they had to tighten the hat . Just a thought

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:48 pm

3thoubucks wrote:How can the sweat be touching the front of his head this shot?

....ummm....Gravity?

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:04 pm

I don't think that 3thou is necessarily trying to say these tricks were used for Ford's hat. He's working on ways to achieve that distinct and elusive 'RAIDERS' look, that's all. Some of his tricks may be unconventional, but if it works, it works.

I may have misunderstood him, if this is true. I was thinking he was theorizing that they started with a too large hat for Ford, and he was replicating that. I may have misunderstood him all along.

Now, what would be more interesting if this is true, is for him to take a hat that fit him and replicate what he sees with the film hat. My understanding of him, has been that it cannot be done with a hat that was fitted to Ford's head size, as generally would have been done for a film where the actor wears a hat. Since he could not replicate that, he reasoned that something else was going on with that hat, and moved on to the larger hat theory. Of course, if I take a size 7 1/2 or 7 5/8 hat and cinch it down to fit my 7 1/4 head, the crown would simply dwarf my face in width. It would look too wide for my face. I would look like a kid wearing his Dad's hat.

How can the sweat be touching the front of his head this shot?

Well one thing that comes to my mind is the slant of his forehead sure lets him crease his hats low. I can recall folks complaining years ago that their heads would push out the low front creases, and assumed it was the hat's fault.

It was more than likely their particular head shape!

Fedora

doc riviere · Post by **doc riviere** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:31 pm

i still dont understand why 3 size too big ?? you optain a long profil hat that seems have a small crown. the particular indy fedora shape is certainly due to the block used, the ford head and long wear and distress process... ( Pat Roach told me a lot of crew members wore the indy fedoras during the filming )
of course the hat was fitted ford perfectly, we can see that for exemple in the bonus material dvd when ford is in the joke plane ! look as the way he put the hat on his head ! not too large for sure...

my opinion...

doc riviere · Post by **doc riviere** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:45 pm

my exact head size is 58,4 cm. here is front view and profil view of my 59cm Herbert johnson. I just replace the ribbon ( more tight as possible ) put hot water behind the sweatband ( same effect as sweat under tunisian sun ) and shape it. i have something close to the raven bar scene and street of cairo ( i will post pic of the other side ) and it fit me perfectly.

Fletch · Post by **Fletch** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:06 pm

Flipped for ya bro

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:27 pm

WOW doc, is that one of the new HJ?

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:39 pm

I think it is probably one of the vintage HJs.

doc riviere · Post by **doc riviere** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:57 pm

This one is a 4 months old !

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 4:00 pm

doc riviere wrote:This one is a 4 months old !

**thud**

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:39 pm

Dang!

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:21 pm

Best new HJ that I have seen. Where did you get it? Fedora

PS Marc, it appears we stole their block, and they have stolen it back!!

I take that as a compliment. I hope all of the new HJs look like this one.

Compliments of our local surveyor David Garrison.

doc riviere · Post by **doc riviere** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:04 am

i get it from TODD's costume. i asked Todd to shape it as the raven bar scene but NOT turn. when i received it i replace the ribbon, put hot water in the sweat band turn it and rechape it

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:31 am

I don't understand what's happening with your hat Doc. Could you get a true profile from a bit furthur away?, that's kind of 3/4 shot. ----------- O.K., I was saying the front of the hat in that b&w pic looks a bit too far out from the forehead. Well, it seems hat crowns, sweats and ribbons do have some significant thickness, and that's all I'm seeing. I just looked at a few scenes in Raiders, where you can see the sweat contacting Ford's forehead, The "shoot them both" and "very dangerous..you go first" scenes. No gap between the sweat and his forehead. That doesn't mean there isn't suffing further up in the sweat, but it mean's Ford's hat needn't be 3 sizes too big, maybe one or two? Like Fedora said, I feel I need the gap in front to preseve the front bashes and creases, due to my vertical forehead, but I agree, I have too much.

BUT, found something else last night! I've been skimping on my pleat! (That forms the channel in the front dent that disappears under the ribbon) We shouldn't skip the channel.

I realized, the big pleat stitch I imagine is under the ribbon is closer to the front pinch than the channel you see above the ribbon. I think you can make out the features under the ribbon, the pleat being about half way up the ribbon, forming two "arrow heads" facing each other under the ribbon. And where the bottoms of these arrows hit the brim, the are two stress lines radiating out onto the brim. So I found this- This pleat is so extreme, it distorts the hats opening, where it exists, when viewed from below on a loose hat!

Therefore, I just made the pleat more extreme on my hat. This tightens the base of the hat, allowing me to remove a lot of stufing. Pics soon!

RNomura · Post by **RNomura** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:37 pm

Beautiful Hat!

~Ron

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:40 pm

It has an LC front bash. Give it the Raiders pinch and see what's left in back.