Oversized, pleated, cinched, folded and stuffed- Perfect!

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri May 26, 2006 9:39 pm

3thoubucks, can you post large pis of the two ( front and side)?

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sat May 27, 2006 3:20 am

No, that's the actual size of those pics, the camera was far away. I'll be getting a same size Federation Deluxe next week, and there will be pics of that. I think my next hat should be a little smaller, but 7 3/8 is as close as I can get. I didn't tell you guys, but I spent a half hour sanding this whole hat thinner with 80 grit before I bashed it. It's still thick and stiff, but if you want to try this with a Regular Fed, you might want to sand it thinner. I sanded the outside of the crown and the bottom of the brim. Be carefull not to shread the sweat atatchment stitches.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat May 27, 2006 7:00 pm

didn't tell you guys, but I spent a half hour sanding this whole hat thinner with 80 grit before I bashed

I would advise the do it yourselfers, not to sand too deep into the felt. Felt bodies have a core. You go too deep and you hit it. The densest felt is the outer layers, the less dense is the inner layers. That is because the hat felts from the outside in, instead of the inside out. The interior felt tends to shrink faster if the outside denser felt is sanded away. Of course, if the hat is just to sit on the mantle, no problem. But, if you are gonna wear the hat and get it wet, etc, you may have a taper issue, beyond what normal hats taper. Just wanted to pass this on. Fedora

Alabama Jones · Post by **Alabama Jones** » Sun May 28, 2006 12:09 am

Pitfall Harry wrote:
I have to believe the extra steps 3thoubucks has gone to are not how they did the hat in the film. It can't be. If they would have spent that much time "working" that hat to do what all it does than it would have taken an extra year for them to make the film!

True, but with all our different head shapes and sizes, it may take those of us who don't have a Ford-size head

a few extra steps to get that screen accurate look. I have an Akubra I got from Rick (luckily, it had been reblocked by Steve). Its a size bigger than I wear, but I "lamp-shaded" it a bit, folded the sweat band and I am really liking the look.

Personally, I belive they may have tried the band-folding/stuffing, not because the hat didn't 'fit", but because they were taking measures to help it stay on, particulary during the desert chase and Cairo scenes. Makes sense to me.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Mon May 29, 2006 3:24 am

Nice to hear Alabama

You learn something new everyday, Fedora!

.. Couple other things I did, after I took the initial pics in this thread. Pork pied it and let it sit overnight.

My hat had a fairly featureless top dent, so did the Raiders hat, except it has this deep dent on the right side.

The pork pie treatment reproduces the dent.

......... It drives me nuts how the peak of the front pinch rounds, and the back of the top crease moves up, minutes after I set them, in my other hats too. I think the felt doesn't want to keep the sharp front peak, and any pressure on the dop dent where my head touches pushes up the back. So I've set them permanently with hot glue. I don't care if I can never reblock the hat, I'd rather buy a new hat every year than have to constantly check and readjust these points. It's just a total pleasure to know it's always right. It's not completely weird- there's already hot glue in the hat from the liner atatchment.

Even though this hat has a 6 inch crown, my head hits the top dent. Now I can wear the hat as low as Ford. I can feel a little bump my head makes in the top dent with my fingers, but I can't even see it with mirrors.

VP · Post by VP » Mon May 29, 2006 4:36 am

You hot glued your hat so that the bashes would stay down? Pretty brave, I couldn't have done that.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Mon May 29, 2006 4:47 am

I did it before on a $45 Jaxon Iconoclast, so I had some confidence.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Mon May 29, 2006 4:57 am

Well, can we also see the front of this hat...

...compared with the front of the same scene in the temple?

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon May 29, 2006 1:00 pm

3M$. You would appreciate how well the beaver felt holds the style. Marc tells me he offered you a free pure beaver body, to do your experiments with.(you should have jumped on that deal) It mimics the Raiders felt better than what you have been using. And, you would not have to use hot glue at all. Plus, you would own a 750 dollar hat when you finished. Part of what you are looking for may not be able to be achieved fully unless the felt has the same characteristics as the Raiders fedora. The felt has much to do with the look. Most of the felt you have worked with was probably the springy type. The right kind is the sort that if you push a dimple in with the end of a finger, it will leave the dent, instead off springing back out. The modern HJs that Todd is selling is like that, although it is rabbit. That is much of that look, the right felt.

If I was not so attached to my vintage HJ, I would send it to you, so you could watch it mushroom the way you are trying to copy by going with a larger than your size hat body. It just does it, without all of the procedures you are doing. But, you seem quite adept at turning a sow's ear into a silk purse........so continue on and I will watch. Regards, Fedora

VP · Post by VP » Mon May 29, 2006 1:03 pm

I thought that the 80s HJs were rabbit too and that's what Ford and the stuntmen wore.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon May 29, 2006 1:05 pm

thought that the 80s HJs were rabbit too and that's what Ford and the stuntmen wore.
_________________

Possibly, but all rabbit is not created equal. What you see mostly today is springy rabbit. Or, it has so much stiffener in it to make it appear to be better felt than it actually is. My vintage HJs are not pure rabbit. You can feel a finer fur in the nap. I am sure in the heyday of HJ, they offered varioius qualities of felt, but back then, even the mercury carroted rabbit was excellent. My vintage HJ, IMHO is the Raiders felt. Not the highest quality felt one could buy back then, but nothing like most modern felt either. Definetely better than current Stetsons and Millers. And, you could wear this hat for a long time before it needed a reblock. Almost taper proof. But most vintage hats are. Fedora

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Tue May 30, 2006 1:09 am

My middle name is Cheapskate, and this is springy felt. Marc and I agreed his hat body might be too small, and the shipping was expensive. My Fed Deluxe might be here tomorrow, they say it's a better quality felt than the regular. ..Erri, that small pic of the front of my hat on this page has the pork pie treatment and the hot glue already in it.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:46 am

Marc and I agreed his hat body might be too small,

Dude, Marc gets a size 8 hat, 6 inch open crown with 3 1/4 brim out of these bodies!!! What is your next excuse?

The 60 bucks shipping is cheaper than the hats you are currently buying.

Plus, it ain't springy felt. Perhaps, you are afraid to use felt that would mimic the film hat? Just kidding there. I just found it to be a great gesture from Marc, to give you a normal 750 dollar hat for a pittance and you turned it down. At least you would have had a felt that would hold those styles. Of course, if you could get a bulge on the back without doing what you are doing currently to achieve this, perhaps it would blow your theory? I think you should start first with plausible theories, and if those don't work out, (by using a different charactertic felt than you have been using) then move on to the left field theories. That would be the logical movement IMHO. If someone showed you, in hand, a felt that would mimic the Raiders felt, would you believe your eyes? No offense, but this is starting to be nonsensical to me, and you seem to be unwilling to try anything that is not "your idea". Fedora

Dwighty0815 · Post by **Dwighty0815** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:47 am

Dude, Marc gets a size 8 hat, 6 inch open crown with 3 1/4 brim out of these bodies!!!

... which I can verify! Marc told me, that he wanted to give a fine hat body to 3thoubucks, and I don't get it neither, why he refuses it!

This is a great deal, and even if you're right, 3thoubucks, and you're not an AB-man, I don't see a reason not to accept this great offering. Especially because from all I've seen you're the man, who always is experimenting and breaking through the known frontiers to get a perfect raiders hat! So I think, the felt, Marc wanted to send you, is a perferct new source for you to compare and experiment with!

However: Size is not the problem!

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:08 am

Tone. .. Neither hat bulges in back like that Raiders hat. There's a fairly straight line, which in relation to the ribbon, actually indicates taper

Some of that on the Raiders hat is an illusion. The ribbon on the back is cinched tight, more so on the top edge of the ribbon. It pulls the back of the hat in, at the top of the ribbon. The ribbon actually tapers in from bottom to top. Above the ribbon, the hat bulges slightly, from the type of felt the hat is made from, and probably due to being squashed when sat upon. 3M$ is caricaturing this hat, and always has. His eyes see much more than is actually there. His entire theory is based upon a caricature. He over emphasizes aspects of this hat. Don't let him drive you nuts.

Just think logically, understand the Raiders hat was an HJ and it was fitted to Fords size. Then move from that point, If you want to live in left field that is your business, but do not expect much repect from the world of the logical. You will not get it. There are more plausible explanations. That some tend to ignore these makes me and many others scratch their heads. How can something that is so obvious, not be obvious to other folks? You are over thinking this. This whole deal is starting to get old, at least to me. It is like trying to communicate with Helen Keller prior to her making the breakthrough in communication. It has moved into the ludicrous. For me, I am finished with reasoning. I will give no more of my time to it. But you guys, go ahead, and have fun with it. Nothng wrong with that, but every now and then, try to stand back and take a look,and ask yourself. Did they really do all of this to the first film hat? Or did they just fit Ford with a HJ with that sort of felt, and what you see in the hat in question, just happened by itself, through wear, the hot sun, and distressing? I am obsessed with that hat, but always stayed within the plausible in my research, and Marc did the same. And 3M$, when you turned down Marc's offer, I suddenly got the idea no AB, or any other hat would ever suit you, and you did not want to even try and see what a different felt would produce. Instead, you continue to buy hats that both he and I rejected a long time ago as not having the right characteristic of felt to replicate what we felt was the right stuff. But like I said, have fun with it, but as for me, it is not fun anymore. Deaf ears towards the plausible has finally turned me off on the deal Regards, Fedora

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:52 am

Imagine this. 3thoubucks is able to get a hat that looks exactly like the Raiders hat from every angle. It only takes a few napkins under the folded sweatband on the larger sized hat with the wire in the brim and a few other tweaks.

Now get it wet and let it dry a few times and see how it looks.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:04 am

3thoubucks wrote:My middle name is Cheapskate, and this is springy felt. Marc and I agreed his hat body might be too small, and the shipping was expensive. My Fed Deluxe might be here tomorrow, they say it's a better quality felt than the regular. ..Erri, that small pic of the front of my hat on this page has the pork pie treatment and the hot glue already in it.

HUH!

Cheapskate? You post that you bought a new hat once or twice a week. That excuse doesn't hold water.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:15 pm

Hey, Marc, I'll GLADLY experiment on that hat body if you want to send it to me!

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:06 pm

Do you know if the Idol grab and Cairo hat are the same one, but Cairo is distressed much more?

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:28 pm

Steve's AB is about as close as possible to the original styling of the IJ-Raiders hat. Others in the know, that made these movies agree fully.

In ways you cannot possibly imagine................

That is very gratifying. I was beginning to think Marc and I had labored in vain, and we should have just stuck with the Feds. (not knocking the Feds, but we felt the block has too much taper). Ok, ok, I will come clean. We knew we were on the right path a long time ago. And we still do. Not that we are set in our ways, just yet, but until someone shows me a freshly blocked hat that looks more accurate(without using a too large body with the manipulations needed to produce a weathered look), we shall stay the course. When you try as many block shapes as we have, and both settle on a particular one, we are either completely blind, or stupid. We can get our hats to look very close to all of the Raiders hats, and not just a particular one from the film. That means something. You guys might also be surprised to find all Federations do not look the same. Some sizes have a better block shape than others. I have seen some with less taper than others. But this is old hat here, as it has been discussed a long time ago. Ron was never out to replicte the exact Raiders fedora. He wanted a hat that could cover several styles, all vintage. I think he scored a winner. Fedora

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:19 pm

Tone, what size Federation is that? Mine never looked that good!
EDIT: Just saw the pic of the tag. Mine was a 58 (7 1/4).

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:23 pm

That looks great!

But I've got a question, How did you get the sides so straight? I've only handled one Fed and it had a pretty obvious (not much, just obvious) taper right out of the box.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:49 am

I'd prefer a luxurious AB Pure Beaver. But like I said, Marc and I agreed his prototype hat body might be too small. He said I might have to make a wooden brim clamp to stretch it beyond is normal capabilities. He quoted a 50 Euro shipping, ($64 U.S. as of today). I already had a new 6x beaver Miller with a 6 1/4 inch crown and 4 inch brim I knew was big enough. About that time, I realized my 360 stovepie had too much reverse taper in the sides and an oversized Fed came to mind. The Miller is forgotten for now. I've said twice in this thread an AB could be a better choice than a Fed. It would have less taper and require less sweat stuffing.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:51 am

Now I wouldn't say it's better than the AB, but I see a pretty good Raiders bash out of this hat considering its reputation for not making a good Raiders fedora.

-None of us (Steve and I) has ever claimed that the Feds. wouldn't make a good Raiders Fedora. Rather the oposite. Steve and I have claimed SEVERAL times that the Feds. are a great bargain both quality wise and screen accuracy wise. And we'll continue to do so.

Nontheless they have their limits seen from the eyes of a fanatic Raiders fan (which we are). These limits are nowhere bad or a reason to complain. They are simply due to the fact that

Ron was never out to replicte the exact Raiders fedora. He wanted a hat that could cover several styles, all vintage.

Period. For the money, you won't get a better, more screen accurate nor durable hat than what Ron offers. And for many, that will be all they could ever ask for.

But you can't expect it to be the same, as when two fanatics spend round about 200 hours on the phone, just to discuss the block shape and then continue to do so with the rest of the few things that go into a hat. Who should be able to pay a hat like that, if it wasn't done on a spare time basis? Someone once said that hatmaking isn't rocket science. That's true. But it DOES take some engineering to come to the point that we have come to. Where to draw the line between engineering and rocket science is up to each of you.

I think my buddy Steve said it best, so I'll borrow his words:

every now and then, try to stand back and take a look,and ask yourself. Did they really do all of this to the first film hat?

Wheather Akubra made the felt for the hats used in Raiders or not - I couldn't care less. You'd still need a "vintage" Akubra to make sure, that you'd get the same felt, made the same way and with the same dye chem. as they did back then. But then again - if HJ used Akubra felt at that time anyways - why not just get yourself a vintage HJ to start with?

Regards,

Marc

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:58 am

He quoted a 50 Euro shipping, $64 U.S. as of today.

Yup, but that was for a brand new XXL raw body from the current batch of rawbodies, that would certainly have done the job. Even at 6" open crown.

But that's water under the brich now, since all XXL raw bodies that I have in stock currently are spoken for by now.

Regards,

Marc

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 8:04 am

That looks great! But I've got a question, How did you get the sides so straight? I've only handled one Fed and it had a pretty obvious (not much, just obvious) taper right out of the box.

A couple of months ago, I had two brothers that wanted hats. One wanted an Ab, the other had a Federation sent directly to me. So, I made one AB, and then all they wanted was a style job on the Federation. That Federation, and all that I have owned, looked nothing like the hat you are showing Tone. I tried to style it as best I could, and I ain't a neophyte in styleing hats. I could not get a good Raiders look from the Federation. Now, I posted years ago, that some of those Feds in particular sizes had a decent Raiders block, but not all of them. It seems the 7 3/8 and 7 1/2 had a good one, but I can't recall exactly. I even made that comment to Michaelson, because he wore one of the sizes that looked good. With that said, I have always said the Fed was a great choice, and the price is right. My only complaint towards the Feds was mine always tapered fairly fast, but then I wore them daily to work at that time, used them as a rain hat, etc. I have owned a dozen of them at least. All of this info is here somewhere. There has been much written by us on the Fed in the past, and I still steer folks to Ron if they want a good hat but do not want to spend the money on the other higher priced hats. And to this day, the only new hat I would spend money on is the Federation. But, the older Akubras seem to have a better felt than is used nowadays. Someone recently told me that the hats made prior to a certain date, seem like it was in the mid 80's were better felt than the current. I can't recall what the reason was, but I think it is the general consensus among long time Akubra fans. Whether this is true or not, I do not know as I have no experience in that area. But, I did a reblock on one that was fairly old once, and the felt seemed to be a bit finer in texture. Years ago, Milan who was a high quality hatter, used Australian rabbit exclusively for his rabbit hats, and also used their rabbit in his blends. It was thought to be the best rabbit fur in the world to use. This was when the Aussie rabbits were being harvested. Recently, I heard they no longer used their own rabbit(I was astounded, due to the rabbit problem they have down there, and this rabbit was so good due to them being wild rabbits which lends the best fur for rabbit hats.

With that being said, the Akubra rabbit is better than the rabbit that I get from my feltmaker. That is the main reason I tried to get out of making rabbit hats. I would rather have a person buy an Akubra, and if the block shape is one of the tapered ones, send it to me for the treatment. I never looked for another supplier on the rabbit felt mainly because I wanted to use the best felt available for my hats, and that turned out to be pure beaver. And since Ron was selling the best rabbit hat, IMO, I would rather give him the sales. Most hatters seldom recommend other hats, but I have never been like that. Marc and I both recommend the Akubras if you want rabbit felt. I love the company as it is one of one that has not sold the name to non hatters, and they are still using the same equipment they have used for years. Fedora

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:31 pm

Indiana_Tone wrote:
J_Weaver wrote:That looks great! But I've got a question, How did you get the sides so straight? I've only handled one Fed and it had a pretty obvious (not much, just obvious) taper right out of the box.
You mean they tend to bash more like this?

Yes, there is still a slight, natural taper to them. They still do this.
Same hat as the one above.

Wow, the brim shape in that pic really makes the taper much more obvious.