Off-topic - need help identifying WWII USN training rifle

schwammy · Post by **schwammy** » Thu May 18, 2006 2:07 pm

Hope you gun experts don't mind my posting this here. I was going thru photos of my grandparents and came across this one of my grandfather. I think the gun he's holding is a Springfield M1903, but it has a in indentation in the stock that I don't see in comparison photos. Can anyone help ID this gun?
thanks
schwammy

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu May 18, 2006 2:14 pm

I can't see the pic.

schwammy · Post by **schwammy** » Thu May 18, 2006 2:32 pm

Let's try this.
http://community.webshots.com/photo/548 ... 5318nvVzyc

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu May 18, 2006 3:11 pm

I believe it is, in fact, a Springfield M1903 .30-06 rifle.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... s%26sa%3DG

Luisiana Jones · Post by **Luisiana Jones** » Thu May 18, 2006 3:16 pm

that rifle was used as a sniper rifle, due to the lack of a more specialised 1, the US just set a scope on top of it and there u go, one of my favs guns

Indiana · Post by **Indiana** » Thu May 18, 2006 3:38 pm

Mr. Binkmiester is correct!

They are great guns, as I've handled several myself. There were different variations that were used as sniper rifles. The M1903A1 Springfield Rifle was one of the basic infantry rifles for the US during WWII. They hold a five round stripper clip of .30 ammunition. There were two other variants:
The M1903A2 and the M1903A3. The '03A3 was the rifle used commonly for sniper rifles although other variants were used.

I think I've got my gun history right!

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu May 18, 2006 5:54 pm

Correct on all counts. It was the one that replaced the Krag after the Phillipine insurrection, and actually lasted until well into WW2 when it was replaced by the Garand semi-auto 30-06. The Navy held onto them the longest, as I recall.

Regards! Michaelson

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Thu May 18, 2006 8:32 pm

Yes sir, that the '03 Springfield!

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Thu May 18, 2006 8:56 pm

Included in the wonderful mod for Half-Life, Day of Defeat aswell as the Webley, if you want to try it digitally.

Regards,
Swindiana

schwammy · Post by **schwammy** » Fri May 19, 2006 2:17 pm

Thanks everyone. I guess that's the 'thirty-aught-six' I used to always hear about. I don't really understand what those numbers mean. I guess the .30 part is the size of the bullet, but what's the 'aught-six' part all about?

LeatherneckJones · Post by **LeatherneckJones** » Fri May 19, 2006 5:59 pm

The "aught six" part signifies the year the US military adopted this specific type of ammunition (1906), if I'm correct.

zeus36 · Post by **zeus36** » Sat May 20, 2006 3:01 am

Yes, you are correct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-06

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Sun May 21, 2006 8:34 am

I always wondered why they said "aught-six" instead of "oh-six". I've also heard the term "double-aught buckshot", but I never understood why that word was used. The Springfield .06 was also in Medal of Honor: Frontline. It's where I recognized the gun from (even though I'm late to the thread). It feels like the Germans' Gewehr 43 sniper rifle was a tad more desireable of a find than the Springfield. The Springfield was a bolt action rifle with a scope, while the Gewehr was a clip fed semi automatic rifle.

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Sun May 21, 2006 5:46 pm

What they don't tell you in the game is how the G-43 could be a bit contrary and how the empty case thrown out by a semi-auto could give the sniper's position away.

It is a lot of fun playing with them in FPS's though!

Lets not forget that the "03" was standard issue during WWI and many of our Marines landed on Guadalcanal with them as their main weapon.

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Sun May 21, 2006 6:20 pm

J_Weaver wrote:What they don't tell you in the game is how the G-43 could be a bit contrary and how the empty case thrown out by a semi-auto could give the sniper's position away.

I don't think you had to worry about that with the G-43. Unlike the M-1 Garand, the clip didn't just pop out when you spent all the ammunition inside. You had to load and re-load the clips by hand. The Springfield would hold 5 shells, I believe, and you'd load it kind of like you load a shotgun. Then use the bolt action to cycle through shells and discard used rounds.

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Sun May 21, 2006 6:58 pm

Strider wrote:
J_Weaver wrote:What they don't tell you in the game is how the G-43 could be a bit contrary and how the empty case thrown out by a semi-auto could give the sniper's position away.
I don't think you had to worry about that with the G-43. Unlike the M-1 Garand, the clip didn't just pop out when you spent all the ammunition inside. You had to load and re-load the clips by hand. The Springfield would hold 5 shells, I believe, and you'd load it kind of like you load a shotgun. Then use the bolt action to cycle through shells and discard used rounds.

Yea, the clip in the G-43 wouldn't pop out when the last round was fired like the M1. It indeed used a more "normal" magazine. However, when any semi-auto is fired it throws out the empty case (used rounds) and slams another round into the chamber. The ejection of the empty is what could give a sniper's position away.

Yup, the "03" was 5 rounds. Most of the time they were loaded via a stripper clip. Although, the models with a scope had to be loaded one round at a time I do believe.

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Sun May 21, 2006 7:07 pm

Interesting stuff. Any comments on the scoped Enfield?

Regards,
Swindiana

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Sun May 21, 2006 7:31 pm

Ah, the Enfield.

I've never delt with a scoped version. However, my grandfather owns at least 2 Enfields (maybe 3). They are fine rifles. I've got first hand experiece with about 5 WWII era bolt action rifles. Generally speaking I find all of them to be fairly equal in terms of putting lead on the target.

up196 · Post by **up196** » Sun May 21, 2006 9:28 pm

The straight line appearance of the top of the bolt and receiver and the round "dot" visible just where the "V" of the jumper neck is denote this as a WWII Paris-Dunn training rifle. They were wooden replicas of the 1903 Springfield used for drill and manual of arms training. Note also the flat appearence of the side of the buttstock and the flat buttplate. Compare it to these . . . Tom

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displ ... um=6358132

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Sun May 21, 2006 9:29 pm

I could have sworn that when you loaded the Springfield, it would spit out a spent shell casing when you used the bolt to cycle through rounds, just like a G-43. I don't think either of the rifles had shell catchers.

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Sun May 21, 2006 9:48 pm

They do, but with a bolt action you can slowly open the bolt to keep the empty from being thrown out wildly.

ShortRound45 · Post by **ShortRound45** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:33 am

Some thing didn't look quite right about that "1903 Springfield". I believe it is actually a Paris & Dunn Training Rifle. The clues are the slab sided stock, the completely flat butt of the stock, and the area above the bolt handle is less prounced as well than on a real 1903.

The more I look that picture, the more convinced I am that it is a Paris & Dunn training "rifle".

Some other tidbits:

The 1903 and 1903A1 variant of the Springfiled Rifle had the forward mounted rear sight. The 1903A3 variant (manufactured only during WW2) has a rear peep sight monted behind the bolt. The 1903A4 was the 'sniper' variant of the rifle, and likewise was built duirng WW2. Real 1903A4's fetched $3,000 or more in today's market.

The M1903A2 was often not marked as an A2. This variant wasn't an infantry rifle per-se, but was used as a "sub-caliber" training aid for artilley and tanks gun crews. It bolted to an adapter that fit a cannon barrel. I've never seen one.

schwammy · Post by **schwammy** » Mon May 22, 2006 9:24 am

Interesting. I noticed the flatter butt too. Here's a Paris-Dunn rifle on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1903-Springfield-Tr ... dZViewItem

The dummy idea seems right, because I was in the military, and they were hyper safety-conscious (to the point of making us inspect all the wall outlets hourly at night on guard duty in basic training).

I'm pretty sure they wouldn't use a working rifle in a photo studio. It makes sense that they would use a prop rifle.

Off-topic - need help identifying WWII USN training rifle

Off-topic - need help identifying WWII USN training rifle

Paris-Dunn Training Rifle