Raiders hat - reverse taper & deep backtilt

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:26 am

As suggested by Marc I find myself copying an email I sent to him recently with photos of a little experiment I did. I hope this might be interesting

If you add thickness on the front and on the back the hat will stretch on the head giving a reverse taper. You could tell me that in this case we couldn't see the back side straight as it is in every scene of raiders... well if you push the back dent far back you will always get the same look... and as a matter of fact in the "basket game" scenes we see the back dent is pushed so far back that someone on COW wondered how could be this possible without getting a taper. The fact is that pushing it far back is just a way to hide that the hat was stretched.
Stretching it on the front and back like you can see I did in the pictures I sent you causes reverse taper on the sides.

With a thickness under the sweatband on the front would stretch the hat getting:
1) reverse taper
2) the same brim loops seen in some fighting scenes
3) as a consequence you'll have to push back the center dent like we see in all the action sequences where Ford needed that the hat didn't fly off his head.
4) this trick also hide a tapering that surely happened under the hot tunisian sun

I hope I was clear enough. Have a look at the pictures

Marc replied that Ford's head is a long oval shape so he didn't need to add any thickness behind the sweatband to get these results.
For the regular oval heads I might suggest you a bent tissue on the front behind the sweatband, It works quite well.

Now my pictures

FRONT SIDE... normal / stretched

Tell me what you think

Pitfall Harry · Post by **Pitfall Harry** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:19 am

Wow....

I don't know if this is new "info" or not. I'm guessing it's not because this HAT has been analyzed more deeply than the Shroud of Turin!

But....

This is NEW to me and seems to explain the look. What type of hat is pictured? Is it a AB, Akubra, HJ or some off brand?

How do you stretch the hat in the front and back? Has the ribbon been tightened?

I would like to try this with my hat but I don't know if it would work since mine falls into the "Dorfman Catagory" because it's an official hat and I also don't know my crown height.

If anyone wants to see my hat outside then check out my pics thread in Lao Che's Table.

I sure would like to try this.

G-MANN · Post by **G-MANN** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:33 am

Erri, I have known about this for some time. I have also discussed this with Marc. One way to get the true SOC look from a Fedora is:

If you have an oval or long oval head, is to order the hat with a very round crown. Then the stretching from an oval head will give it the same look as your picture (top right). However it will cause reverse taper in the back of the hat.

Cheers,
John

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:49 am

Yes, this was 'discovered' way back when we were debating the reverse taper at Indyfan, but it's always nice to see excellent photo depictions of this practice.

Regards! Michaelson

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:26 pm

I would still like to see photo's useing this trick but with the hat on your head.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:47 pm

jpenman wrote:I would still like to see photo's useing this trick but with the hat on your head.

I took them ... well I tried, I'll see if they are decent enough to be posted

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 3:34 pm

Good post Erri!

I've played with this idea some too. The only problem I see is that it causes the front of the hat to taper.

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:55 pm

A good set of photos like this - with also the effect on a head - would be great. I do recall someone else showing that mushroom effect from the front/back tension dynamic in a great pic, but I can't find it anymore...that's why I asked Steve to make a round oval hat for my long oval head. I think I need to size down a bit on the next block, though, to really get the effect. (Hence the reason I'm not providing good example pics on MY head.)

J

Pitfall Harry · Post by **Pitfall Harry** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:51 pm

J_Weaver wrote:Good post Erri!

I've played with this idea some too. The only problem I see is that it causes the front of the hat to taper.

Yeah, same thing with mine. The more I push the back down the more the taper in the front!?!

Does anyone know which brand of fedora that hat is in the example?

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:26 pm

Harry, I'm pretty sure its an AB.

Pitfall Harry · Post by **Pitfall Harry** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:36 pm

Man, that's a beautiful hat.

I'm guessing my "dorfman" isn't ever going to be able to achieve that certain "SOC Look".

I'm lucky I was able to remove the tear drop crown. I've been messing with it tonight and it's just not working. I don't know if my crown is not tall enough or that it's because it was factory bashed before I got it......or something I'm not doing right.

I need to get an different hat......I need an AB!

G-MANN · Post by **G-MANN** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:12 pm

Pitfall Harry wrote:Man, that's a beautiful hat.

I need to get an different hat......I need an AB!

Harry,
The answers to all your hat problems are just a mouse click away: $\:D/$
http://www.adventurebilthats.com/orderPrice.asp

Cheers,
John

Pitfall Harry · Post by **Pitfall Harry** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:38 pm

G-MANN wrote:
Pitfall Harry wrote:Man, that's a beautiful hat.

I need to get an different hat......I need an AB!
Harry,
The answers to all your hat problems are just a mouse click away: $\:D/$
http://www.adventurebilthats.com/orderPrice.asp

Cheers,
John

To bad the same can't be said for my MONEY problems! HA!

I would love to own one of those hats. How much are they after shipping....$260 or so?

So what are the standard dimensions of the AB if I just give them my size and that's it? I wouldn't really know what dimensions or crown height I would need.

The more I look at the AB and the Akubra's people on here own the more I dislike my hat. It's a good "Indy hat" but can't achieve the "Indy Look" that I really like and have always wanted.

Pitfall Harry · Post by **Pitfall Harry** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:53 am

Well, I take back what I posted above. I went back and messed with my hat some more and I kind of got it closer to this look...

One of the things I just figured out was to get the one side of the hat to bend the way it is I had to use some water and soak the sides of the hat and then take my thumb and push the one side up to where it would fold almost in half just near the end of the ribbon. I also had the hat on my head while I was doing it so I could see what it looked like while I was doing it.

I left the other side curling upward so the sides look more uneven now. It's hard to explain and I'm not sure if I took a pic of myself in the hat if it would pickup on camera or not.

I don't know if this thumb trick is new or not but it's something I didn't know about and it worked to get my hat more to where I want it to look.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 4:13 am

J_Weaver wrote:Good post Erri!

I've played with this idea some too. The only problem I see is that it causes the front of the hat to taper.

Actually should have the opposite effect

... if you have a long oval head

Pitfall Harry wrote: Yeah, same thing with mine. The more I push the back down the more the taper in the front!?!

Does anyone know which brand of fedora that hat is in the example?

LOL well the point of all my post was to show that if you stretch the hat you get the reverse taper but you also need to push the center dent far back to compensate the angle on the back...

It's the opposite philosophy... if you start pushing back the center dent of course you get a taper

PS the hat is an Adventurebilt...

... this one

JerseyJones · Post by **JerseyJones** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:23 am

erri_wan wrote:As suggested by Marc I find myself copying an email I sent to him recently with photos of a little experiment I did. I hope this might be interesting

If you add thickness on the front and on the back the hat will stretch on the head giving a reverse taper. You could tell me that in this case we couldn't see the back side straight as it is in every scene of raiders... well if you push the back dent far back you will always get the same look... and as a matter of fact in the "basket game" scenes we see the back dent is pushed so far back that someone on COW wondered how could be this possible without getting a taper. The fact is that pushing it far back is just a way to hide that the hat was stretched.
Stretching it on the front and back like you can see I did in the pictures I sent you causes reverse taper on the sides.

With a thickness under the sweatband on the front would stretch the hat getting:
1) reverse taper
2) the same brim loops seen in some fighting scenes
3) as a consequence you'll have to push back the center dent like we see in all the action sequences where Ford needed that the hat didn't fly off his head.
4) this trick also hide a tapering that surely happened under the hot tunisian sun

I hope I was clear enough. Have a look at the pictures
Marc replied that Ford's head is a long oval shape so he didn't need to add any thickness behind the sweatband to get these results.
For the regular oval heads I might suggest you a bent tissue on the front behind the sweatband, It works quite well.

Now my pictures

FRONT SIDE... normal / stretched

Tell me what you think

I actually do that to my hats that I sell when someone requests a Raiders shape and I just steam it into place. Great information and explanation. Thanks for that, my man !

JJ

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:31 am

jersyjones, do you have anypics of your hats like that?

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:52 am

Not to add confusion, but look at pic number 1. Look where the top portion of the sweat would be under the felt. Then notice the taper on the back of the hat. The sweat area of the hat has been pushed outward by the head. It looks like a long oval head is in this regular oval hat. The head pushes out the bottom of the hat, causing it to taper. This is the part that never made sense to me about Ford's long oval head distorting the brim. Only thing is, you never see taper on the back of his hat. If his head was pushing on the back of his hat, the hat has to taper!!! It is a law. Only, if the hat was too large could he pull this off. Something else is going on with his hat. The turn is doing the brim distortion, and not his head shape. IMHO. My point is this. If your hat, any brand, exhibits what pic number one is showing us, you need a long oval blocked hat. That is, if you want the back to be straight up and down. Fedora

Pitfall Harry · Post by **Pitfall Harry** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:29 am

So Ford's hat was bigger than what he should have been wearing?

I'm going to say if that's the case then maybe they added something on the inside of the hat in the sweatband to make it tighter but either the front or back is has less material so it's not making the back taper like it would if Ford's head was pushing on it.

This plus the turn and just plain everyday rugged use could be the answer.

You guys do realise this hat is the Eighth Wonder of the World.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:20 am

Only thing is, you never see taper on the back of his hat. If his head was pushing on the back of his hat, the hat has to taper!!! It is a law.

But Steve, if you have a real bogus looking reverse taper in the rear of the crown of a reg. oval hat - worn on a long oval head - the head would push the extrem reverse taper to a slight reverse taper or make it straight... Just a thought.

Regards,

Marc

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:37 pm

But Steve, if you have a real bogus looking reverse taper in the rear of the crown of a reg. oval hat - worn on a long oval head - the head would push the extrem reverse taper to a slight reverse taper or make it straight... Just a thought.

Yep, I agree. This would be the case. I just do not see those features on the stunt hats worn by the stuntmen. Of course, they may have all been long ovals too!

But, since a long oval head is not that common, we may assume that they were regular ovals. I have tried to see what the same model HJ looked like on the stunt guys, to see if the back of the hat was kicked out into the reverse taper. I can't see it. The reverse taper that I see on Indy's hat is due to the mushrooming of the hat itself, not only on the back, but the sides as well. IMHO, of course. Fedora

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:44 pm

Fedora wrote: But, since a long oval head is not that common, we may assume that they were regular ovals. Fedora

You talking about the 'hats', or head shape? This statement confused me, as most of us with Welsh/English ancestory have long oval shaped heads. Maybe THAT'S why you've had problems fitting my head!

Regards! Michaelson

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:02 pm

Yeah, most folks fall in the reg oval head shape. That was what I was talking about.

You could tell, sorta by taking a hat you have broken in and measure front to back, (front of sweat to back of sweat) Then measure from side to side. Subtract the numbers. A reg oval hat has a 1 3/8 inch differential. Anything over that would move into the long ovals. I would have to check my long oval blocks to see what the differential is on a long oval, but I think it is 1 3/4. Can't say for sure and the memory is not what it used to be. Seems like you move in 3/8 inch increments, so a round oval would be a 1 inch differential. With that said, on most self conforming hats, the various head shapes does not affect the comfort, as the hat is soft enough to conform. Throw some stiffener in the equation and a headache could ensue.

A stiff hat would have to fit your head shape, or it would be a pain to wear. regards, Fedora

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:05 pm

Unfortunately, my dark gray gets the most wear, and must be made in a round oval shape, as I have slight gaps on both sides. Ah well.

It does draw the most positive comments, though, so I'll survive.

Regards! Michaelson

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:18 pm

Unfortunately, my dark gray gets the most wear, and must be made in a round oval shape,

I am afraid I only own one round oval block.

Not in your size though. All of my blocks, vintage and new are reg ovals, and long ovals. I do not even own a long, long oval. Regards, Fedora

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:24 pm

Weird then. This is the only AB you've ever made me that does this, so I'm at a loss at why it fits me the way it does. You can even see the wear marks at the front sides where it touches my head, but no where else.

Well, like I said, no biggie. In lieu of no ventilated sweatbands, at least the gaps allow air to move into the crown so I have a LITTLE ventilation.

Regards! Michaelson

Antone · Post by **Antone** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:24 pm

But Steve, if you have a real bogus looking reverse taper in the rear of the crown of a reg. oval hat - worn on a long oval head - the head would push the extrem reverse taper to a slight reverse taper or make it straight... Just a thought.

Steve,

If you look at the pictures 3thou posted in the "360 stovepipe" thread, when the Raiders hat was not being worn (on the table with the bad dates and on the flying wing) there was pronounced reverse taper on the back of the hat. There was no reverse taper on the side views when HF had the hat on, therefore the evidence we have stongly supports this idea...

...but whether it's 100% true or not, it is certainly one way to get the look.

Erri-

That last shot of your AB looks like the perfect Cairo to me as is; I wouldn't do a thing to it or you'll have an exaggerated "more than Raiders" look, IMO.

Regards,

Antone

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:42 pm

If you look at the pictures 3thou posted in the "360 stovepipe" thread, when the Raiders hat was not being worn (on the table with the bad dates and on the flying wing) there was pronounced reverse taper on the back of the hat. There was no reverse taper on the side views when HF had the hat on, therefore the evidence we have stongly supports this idea...

Not sure if I understand you here. But, I am exposed to old mercury felt quite a bit!!

On most hats that are soft, when you place them down on the brim, the top distorts, and throws in the reverse taper, regardless of whether it is there while on the head. I recall several years ago when Rundquist posted some pics of a vast array of hats, all sitting on their brims. Some were soft hats, some were stiff. All of the soft Optimos looked badly tapered from the front view, but as every Optimo Indy hat owner knows, these hats were not tapered at all while on the head. Very stovepiped hats they are. The best way to judge any hat, is while it sits on your head. I am talking soft felt hats here, as the stiff ones do not change. A soft hat just distorts easily. Fedora

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:53 pm

There was no reverse taper on the side views when HF had the hat on, therefore the evidence we have stongly supports this idea...

Oh, I think this just sunk in. So the theory is, the hat came blocked with reverse taper on the back? That is, once the hat was creased, there was reverse taper apparent, even, WHEN NOT SITTING ON ITS BRIM? Then, his long oval head pushed out the back to the straight up position. That could be, and I am not able to dispute that, because I have seen homburg type hats that had reverse taper on front and back while the hat was being worn. But, from experience, I also know that a soft felt hat will get reverse taper, while sitting on its brim, but not have it when on the wearer, regardless of the head being long oval or reg oval. That throws another variable into the mix, at least for me it does. That is why I would love to see some screen shots of the stunt guys, wearing the Raiders hat, and take a look at the back of the hat, if we are so lucky as to have one like that. Since reg oval heads are more common than long ovals, one of those guys should be wearing a hat, with extreme reverse taper, that would jump out at ya. Sounds valid, if we can pull it off. Fedora

Antone · Post by **Antone** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:01 pm

Fedora wrote: On most hats that are soft, when you place them down on the brim, the top distorts, and throws in the reverse taper, regardless of whether it is there while on the head.

Oops, heh heh. Just tried this with my softer AB, and what do you know...

I should know better than to argue hats with you by now...

In any case, I think that the point still stands that HF's head shape vs. the hat shape played a significant role in the Raiders look, and using a rounder oval is one good way to get a Cairo look...but I'm not saying anything new here, so I'll bow out now.

Out of curiosity though Steve, what size is your round oval block? I've been considering ordering an AB like that to get this sort of distortion...

Antone

Antone · Post by **Antone** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:12 pm

Fedora wrote: Oh, I think this just sunk in. So the theory is, the hat came blocked with reverse taper on the back? That is, once the hat was creased, there was reverse taper apparent, even, WHEN NOT SITTING ON ITS BRIM? Then, his long oval head pushed out the back to the straight up position.

Whoops, typed that last while you posted this. Yes, that is exactly what I meant! As 3thou pointed out, HF's hat for the desert scenes in Raiders was worn very tight, which must have caused some distortion, but as 3thou said, who actually wants to wear a hat every day that they need to yank on with both hands to squeeze their heads into it? I was thinking that using a rounder oval, whether or not the film hats actually had that feature, would be a good way to get the Raiders look without screen-accurate discomfort.

But it sounds like Jersy Jones is already trying this, so I would second the vote for pictures of these hats on heads. If anyone has one, I'd love to see pics!

Antone

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:24 pm

I should know better than to argue hats with you by now...

Oh no my friend. I am no expert!! I am just opinionated. All that I know, I learned from guys here, like 3M$, and many others. I just have the advantage of working with felt, and experimenting. And when you spend time trying to replicate the look to sell to other folks, you really have to study hard, as there are some really sharp folks here. This is a harder crowd to please, than any other group, I think. There have been changes in the AB block shape, and I cannot say with a 100 per cent certainty, that there will not be more in the future. A nuance here, a nuance there. So, although, I am opininated, I also am all ears.

I really look forward to Marc's hats being posted here. Two visions of the Raiders fedora. If you see something in his hat that you like better than mine, guess what I will do??

I am the most flexible guy that I know.

Fedora

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:21 pm

Michaelson wrote:Unfortunately, my dark gray gets the most wear, and must be made in a round oval shape, as I have slight gaps on both sides. Ah well.

It does draw the most positive comments, though, so I'll survive.

Regards! Michaelson

Michealson, perhaps your a long oval wearing a regualr oval hat. Both my dad and I are the same hat size. However, I'm a long oval and he's not. When I put one of his hat on its always too tight in the front and back and way too loose on the sides. In fact the sides are loose enough for me to stick a finger between my head and the sweat band.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:27 pm

That's what I've always thought myself, and THAT'S why it has 'surprised' me all this time. Fedora has made my hats for me for YEARS! So, this one has always been a mystery regarding the way it 'fits' my head.

Regards! Michaelson

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:42 pm

That's what I've always thought myself, and THAT'S why it has 'surprised' me all this time. Fedora has made my hats for me for YEARS! So, this one has always been a mystery regarding the way it 'fits' my head.

Apparently, that particular hat was off of one of the vintage blocks. In your size, I have many different block shapes now. I may have grabbed one close to the open road crown and used that. That one is a reg oval block, I believe. That's what it sounds like to me Michaelson. In the Indy fedora blocks, I have a Raiders profile, and a LC profile. I have at least on one occassion screwed up and sent out a supposed Raiders fedora, but used the LC block. This was recently. My mistake, as I was making both styles at the time, and in a effort to keep up, I inadvertedly got two hats confused. But, in your case, I think you have several differtly blocked hats that I have made, or reblocked one of your existing ones. We will just have to remember not to use that one again. Records? I guess I need to start keeping them on reblocks!! Sounds like the block I used for the open road crown won't work. Long oval blocks are so hard to find on ebay nowadays. Fedora

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:52 pm

That's it. I was after the open road crown top (not necessarily the open road hat), and you DID use a vintage open road block, as I recall. That explains the situation.

Yep, let's not do THAT again. I LOVE this hat....and it doesn't fit right.

....but I've made it work.

Regards! Michaelson

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Sun May 07, 2006 3:24 pm

J_Weaver wrote:
Michaelson wrote:Unfortunately, my dark gray gets the most wear, and must be made in a round oval shape, as I have slight gaps on both sides. Ah well.
Michealson, perhaps your a long oval wearing a regualr oval hat. Both my dad and I are the same hat size. However, I'm a long oval and he's not. When I put one of his hat on its always too tight in the front and back and way too loose on the sides. In fact the sides are loose enough for me to stick a finger between my head and the sweat band.

I have the same issue with my Akubra. Gaps on the sides, granted it's a size to big with padding in the front and back to make it fit better.

Raiders hat - reverse taper & deep backtilt

Raiders hat - reverse taper & deep backtilt

hat

Re: hat

Re: Raiders hat - reverse taper & deep center dent

hat