PETER/Wested: Collar question for you.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:39 pm

Over the years I've been noticing several disctinct differences among the Raiders jackets in the film, one of them being the collar. I did ask Wested to do the collar on one of my jackets as it was in the pics I sent in illustrating what I wanted. It did not get done and I was slightly disappointed but I honestly think it was due to a lack of cummunication on my part and I wanted to clear that up so I know specifically ask for the next time I order.

Out of all the jackets Peter provided there was one jacket that was basically the main hero jacket in the film. Most likely because the majority of the scenes in which it was worn was at Elstree which made it that much easier for continuity.
The hero jacket which I speak of has a very distict collar much different from all the other jackets for the production. One of the corners of the lapel is rounded, the other more pointed. The collar itself is actually longer, not wider. One thought was that this may have been the very first, or test jacket, followed up by many more with a differnet, more unified collar.
I can't recall ever seeing a Wested with the collar I'm talking about, which leads me to my question.

In any case, lets take a look at the different collars seen in the film.

The two pics above show the collar I'm talking about. Notice how the collar on both sides, extends farther down past the shirt collar. All the Westeds I've seen have the collar ending about parallel to the shirt collar which is how it is seen in the pics here below.

Even at least this stunt jacket has the same collar as the two above pics.

You can see the difference in where the tips of the collar end up hanging in the front. The two top pics are obvious the collar extends farther down in front than the bottom 3 pics. The bottom 3 pics are what we see today on all Wested collars.

Here's my million dollar question: What do I need to ask for to get the collar to look longer as in the top two pics? Is it a wider neck? A longer (not wider) collar? What specific wording do I need to place in my order so that it will not be overlooked and get a jacket with the standard collar?

I'd love to hear directly from Peter on this but if any of you have done this to your jacket or know what it is I should be asking, please chime in.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:02 pm

agent5 wrote: Here's my million dollar question: What do I need to ask for to get the collar to look longer as in the top two pics?

Maybe you might just show him these pictures you showed us and he will tell you what to write into the order.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:56 pm

I did just that, Erri, but the request was not met. I got the EXACT width on the collar right down to the mm., but the overall length of the collar is as on the last 3 pics above and not like in the pics I'd sent. It wasn't a huge deal to me since both are screen accurate, but I'd like to know what to ask for when I place my order for another.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:10 pm

I wonder how you got the EXACT measurement!!!

maybe you'll be able to help me with some of my shirt issues!

Flash Gordon · Post by **Flash Gordon** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:12 pm

I think I know what you're after, Agent5.

It looks like you want a larger collar opening. For example, when I sent Peter my measurements, I included the fact that I wear a 16-inch collar on my shirts. That lets him know that I don't have a huge neck. So, he tailored the jacket to fit my neck size.

It looks like what you want is a jacket for a guy with a really big neck. That way it will hang down as far as you want when the jacket is open. If you have a 16-inch neck, then you may want to ask for an 18 or 19-inch neck size.

Sound like what you want?

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:20 pm

If you have no neck, do you even need a collar opening?

G-MANN · Post by **G-MANN** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:22 pm

Would it be possible for you to take the jacket to a local leather craftsman and have them alter it to fit your description. If you are there in person they may be able to give you exactly what you want if you help guide them through it. If the Jacket cannot be altered after it is made. You could possible have the jacket shipped to you without the collar but have enough leather sent from the same hides to have it made and added to the jacket localy.

Just a thought.
Cheers,
John

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:42 pm

Flash Gordon wrote:I think I know what you're after, Agent5.

It looks like you want a larger collar opening. For example, when I sent Peter my measurements, I included the fact that I wear a 16-inch collar on my shirts. That lets him know that I don't have a huge neck. So, he tailored the jacket to fit my neck size.

It looks like what you want is a jacket for a guy with a really big neck. That way it will hang down as far as you want when the jacket is open. If you have a 16-inch neck, then you may want to ask for an 18 or 19-inch neck size.

Sound like what you want?

Agreed, I think Flash has got the right idea. Basically, if you laid you jacket down flat - and unrolled the collar - how long is the part that goes against your neck? If you get jacket w/ that size increased, then so long as it can stay closer to the back of your neck (without sliding back), you should have extra extension of the collar down closer to your clavical bone.

(Yes, I'm serious this time.)

EDIT: All that said, now look back at the pics. I think we should discount the stuntman pic because the collar is falling away from the back of his neck, and also because it's an apples to oranges comparison of how that jacket fits him compared to the four Ford pics.

Now, in the first two Ford pics...is it just me, or is the back of the collar snugged up close to the nape of his neck, higher in the back? So it drapes down further, perhaps? In the 3rd and 4th, the jacket seems to be relaxed a bit from his neck. So are these perhaps the same cut, but either broken in differently or worn differently?

So maybe how it is worn will achieve part of this effect, but then a smaller neck compared to the collar circumfrence might provide part of the effect.

J

191145 · Post by **191145** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:10 pm

Agent 5; I believe you're tilting at windmills. The 'longer' collar you're after cannot be done. Now hear me out - I know you have pictures of it on Harrison Ford. I think what you're seeing is a jacket of a different size and/or cut than another. If you put on a 42 when you normally wear a 38, it will have a longer collar which will hang down lower on your upper chest. The collar length has to match the jacket size, because it all works together. In order for the collar to be longer than it should be for a particular size, the zipper and storm flap of the coat would have to curve in at the top, which is impossible. The resulting excess material would simply stick out if the coat was zipped up. The collar has to be a certain distance from the zipper so it closes at the top but doesn't overlap when the coat is zipped all the way up. The reason Wested did not give you the collar you wanted is because it can't be done under the constraints of making a coat to fit you. The only way it can be done is to order a chest size larger than you normally would, but with the shoulder width and arm length you usually get. It would probably be ugly, but you would get your long collar.

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:50 pm

I think 191145 is right. I've got a "large" US Wings that looks similar collar wise to what you are seeking. It's several sizes too big in the chest though, thus making the collar hang farther down my chest. (want pictures?)

I also think Jerry may be on to something too. In the first long collar one you can just barly see the sholder seem I think. (thus jacket pulled forward) and in the second short collar pic you can't see the sholder seam even though he is leaning forward (thus collar pulled back). Also on the stunt jacket if he pulled the front down it would have a very long collar because it's way off his neck there, plus it's extra big to fit the padding underneath it.

McFly · Post by **McFly** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:13 pm

I think you've got the best screen caps ever... picture 2, and picture 3 have just awesome faces by Ford.

I agree with Jerry - I think the jacket is closer to his neck in the first ones and not so much in the second one, kind of like the difference between zipping up your Wested all the way and sitting down so the zipper is against your throat, or unzipping it all the way and having it right against the back of your neck.

Try it with your Wested and let us know what you think.

In Christ,
Shane

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:07 am

I honestly think that all but the stunt pic has the jacket sitting in about the same spot off the back of the neck. the collar is simply longer.

I'm wondering why if this is a functioning jacket in the film why anyone thinks it can't be done outside the film? I know the collar would be larger than normal but I wouldn't be wearing it zipped all the way up. It'd be my #1 jacket to stay on my mannequin and to wear at cons and Halloween. The larger neck when zipped simply wouldn't bother me. I also don't think an extra inch or so on each side would open the neck up so much that it would be so much of a bother.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:20 am

Just tossing this idea out there.....has anyone ever asked what Peter did regarding jacket sizing in the extra jackets? We KNOW he measured Ford for the hero jacket....but did he create an average 'one size fits all' jacket size when it came to all the EXTRA jackets to be worn by Ford and the stunt men? It could explain why there's so much extra collar in the shots we're seeing in many of the screen grabs that we're NOT seeing on custom made, sized jackets we're receiving. It could also explain why we see the seams in all sorts of locations on individuals, as well as the floating pleats etc.

Just a wild thought, as I said....

Regards! Michaelson

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:26 pm

I'm pretty sure the jacket worn during the Temple exterior shots was the exact same jacket worn in the pics above in Imam's house. You can tell by the odd way the top of the storm flap is connected to the collar. They look identical to me, but not like any of the other jackets produced for Raiders or the sequels.

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:40 pm

I think only part of it is how he has it snugged up against his neck...I think you CAN make the neck circumfrence bigger on a smaller jacket - but there's a trick.

It won't be at the same level - you'd end up tilting it a bit more forward so that the end of the collar still meets the vertical zipper line. It seems like this would - if it worked - have the natural effect of snugging the back of the collar against the neck and creating the effect of the front ends of the collar 'hanging down' like you are looking for.

But I'm not a tailor...I don't know if the integrity of the fit would be compromised by doing this.

J

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:47 pm

But I'm not a tailor...I don't know if the integrity of the fit would be compromised by doing this.

That's why I'm hoping Peter will give his two cents since he made the darn thing.

Perhaps seeing the differences in the collars would be enough insight to give a detailed answer.

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:04 pm

I have to say that in my opinion, the collar on Ford's jacket is pretty much the same throughout the movie. It looks different from scene to scene depending on how much "roll" is in the collar and much the wind flap is folded over. To be honest, the collar/wind flap relationship/cut is what I’ve always disliked most about the Wested. No matter what I did to any of my Westeds, I could never get the collar to look like the Raiders collar. The FS collar is much closer in my opinion. If Peter could change the collar, he’d have a true winner. Take this all with a grain of salt of course. It’s only my opinion. Cheers

The jacket collar/shirt collar relation ship just has to do with how your shirt and/or jacket are riding on your back.

Wested left-FS right

Post by **Mike** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:59 pm

Boy, this thread is starting to feel like an old family reunion.

5, I believe someone (probably Michaelson) stated that Peter is on vacation, so it may be a bit before he sees this.

Mike

Captain D · Post by **Captain D** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:12 pm

[quote="Rundquist"]I have to say that in my opinion, the collar on Ford's jacket is pretty much the same throughout the movie. It looks different from scene to scene depending on how much "roll" is in the collar and much the wind flap is folded over. To be honest, the collar/wind flap relationship/cut is what I’ve always disliked most about the Wested. No matter what I did to any of my Westeds, I could never get the collar to look like the Raiders collar. The FS collar is much closer in my opinion. If Peter could change the collar, he’d have a true winner. Take this all with a grain of salt of course. It’s only my opinion. Cheers

The jacket collar/shirt collar relation ship just has to do with how your shirt and/or jacket are riding on your back.

Rundquist took the words right outta my mouth,

Kind Regards,
Captain D

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:37 pm

This might sound stupid but if you wear a scarf (a thick one) the collar will end up wrinkling very close to the raiders collar since it will be pushed away from your neck and practically squeezed on the shoulders... I think it works nicely.

TFrosst · Post by **TFrosst** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:42 pm

agent5 wrote:I'm pretty sure the jacket worn during the Temple exterior shots was the exact same jacket worn in the pics above in Imam's house. You can tell by the odd way the top of the storm flap is connected to the collar. They look identical to me, but not like any of the other jackets produced for Raiders or the sequels.

It can't be the same jacket. Look at the scalloped pockets of the jacket used for the exterior temple scenes and the regular, more squared flap pockets in the Imam's house. Lol, you're the one that posted the pics in the ultimate raiders jacket thread.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:41 pm

Hellooooooooooooooo Peter?

If you have a minute, please?

TF,
I went back and took a look again and I have to beg to differ with your thoughts on the pockets. I took pics of the same pocket in both scenes, looked at them side by side and they looked pretty darn identical to me. The scalloping looked the same to me. I see no difference. If you can post the differences you see, then please, by all means, do.
Then take another look at where the storm flap meets the collar in both scenes. They are identical, very distinct and much different than the others. That was my main indicator from the beginning. I think it's the same jacket.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:57 pm

Peter just got back in town on Monday from being in Egypt for 2 weeks, so I'd say he's still trying to catch up as we speak.

Regards! Michaelson

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:15 am

Peter,
Seeing as that you've been back now for days and have been posting elsewhere on the board, do you think you could take a minute to look over this thread and answer a couple questions? Thanks.

IndianaJames · Post by **IndianaJames** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:53 am

Wested has been really good about emails lately, perhaps try sending him one with a link to this discussion?

Cheers!
I J

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:09 pm

Well, he cruises the board, especially this section, so I can't see why he cannot answer here like everyone else. Plus, I thought it best if everyone can see his reply.

Ark Hunter · Post by **Ark Hunter** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:18 pm

Another thing I just noticed about the "short" collars are that they all seem to be spread out quite a bit wider (and about the same in each picture) than the "long" ones.

Skippy · Post by **Skippy** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:10 pm

I know you really want a definative answer from Peter Agent 5, but personally I have to agree with 191145 on this.

If you get a bigger shirt collar, you end up with a bigger shirt all round, same for a jacket. To incorporate the tailoring your thinking of would not be normal for a jacket made to measure for HF after he visited Peter. That said, if a jacket happened to be badly made, then there is no accounting for what features you'd end up with!

Here is another picture of the jacket you appear to be talking about, with the rounded storm-flap corner, which would make this the same jacket as the Elstree shots one, unless I'm mis-reading what you said.

The collar is tight to the neck, but notice the right shoulder seam at the front. Obviously I can't be certain, but I suggest that that jacket is bigger than HF standard size by the way it hangs off where his shoulder should naturally be. Bigger jacket = bigger collar size/circumference.

Tough call on this picture, but I would say again from the curve of the shoulder seam, that the arms seam fall off the shoulder, suggesting a larger jacket again.

There is a picture somewhere on this board with a rear view inside the Idol temple which shows a very loose fitting jacket as well.

My current Wested is a size 40" & a squared fit on the shoulders, with a neck size that is too tight. I currently don't have a 42" to hand, so I can compare.

& looking a Rundquist's pictures, the collar/stormflap of his Wested seems to be correct compared to the finds of Agent 5 on the sticky thread, whilst the Flightsuits jacket looks waaay off

Lao Feng · Post by **Lao Feng** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:03 pm

Ahhh...the collar dilemma...I found that the Wested collar has a great shape BUT the neck size is too tight, while the FS collar FITS great but may be cut a little too small...Can't win, can we?

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:35 am

Bump!

PETER!! You there?

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:52 am

5 why don't you just ask for a slightly bigger collar opening? eg. If you are a 15" why not get a 16 1/2" or 17" with all the other measurements the same.

I have the same thing happening on mine, once done up the collar is, very fitted. Not too tight but closer than Fords definately.

BTW Wested are closed on good friday and easter monday. And people are packing up to go home now 5.00pm.

PETER/Wested: Collar question for you.

PETER/Wested: Collar question for you.

Re: PETER/Wested: Collar question for you.