James Dean and Indy

[pmarlowe]

Hello all,

I've been hanging around here for a while, so I thought I'd say Hi and ask a question that's been nagging me. I've read that Indy's jacket is a combination of an A-2 and James Dean's jacket. Now, I know what an A-2 looks like, but what "James Dean jacket" is it patterned after? Is it the red cotton jacket he wore in "Rebel Without a Cause"? I seem to recall he wore a leather jacket in that as well. Maybe it was just in a publicity still.

Just curious,
Chad Miller

[Ken]

I THINK its the Rebel Without a Cause jacket but its in reference to the action pleats and they were elongated for the Indy jacket

Ken

PS - Welcome to Indygear

[IndyBlues]

I think it's also possible, with the way stories are told and re-told, that they may have wanted to make a jacket like an A-2. But they wanted it different, yet iconic enough to be as recognizable as the James Dean jacket. I think they accomplished that.
'Blues

[Alabama Jones]

A quick google search and some results come up like this:

http://www.newterritoryleathers.com/men ... mJkts.html

Sort of Indy-ish without the A2 pockets.

[pmarlowe]

Thanks for the welcome and the replies. I can see the resemblence in Dean's red jacket; I just thought a leather one existed as well. Maybe the costume designer asked for something like Dean's jacket but made of leather.

As an aside, I had a jacket with those A-2 cargo pockets, but I didn't care for them. I couldn't fit much in them, and I couldn't slip in my hands when the weather turned cold!

Chad Miller

[FloatinJoe]

A quick google search and some results come up like this:

http://www.newterritoryleathers.com/men ... mJkts.html

Sort of Indy-ish without the A2 pockets.

Alabama, I actually like those jackets. If I didn't have a Wested and had no intentions of getting an Indy jacket, I'd probably get one of those.

Semi-related, does anyone know where you can get a James Dean jacket? There are a lot of jackets out there today that are similar, but have a modern cut and not the 1950s/60s cut of his.

Mike

[Hemingway Jones]

James Dean jacket.
It was Peter's idea to cross an A2 with the James Dean jacket in trying to satisfy Deborah Noodleman's desire for a distinctive jacket. Essentially, it is a James Dean jacket with an A-2's pockets added, plus the side-pulls and action pleats. Short so he could reach his gear.

[Bufflehead Jones]

I don't know if this will clear up anything about James Dean's jacket, but here is the story about how the Indiana Jones jacket was designed as related to me by Peter, himself.

Berman and Nathans had the contract to do the costume and Deborah Nadoolman was the costume designer. Berman and Nathans had a jacket for Harrison Ford to wear, but Deborah Nadoolman did not like it. She really didn't like anything that Berman and Nathans had to offer. Berman and Nathans called Peter and asked if he had any jackets that may fit that character and that time period. Peter said that he had some and he was asked to bring them over.

Deborah Nadoolman liked a James Dean jacket that Peter had and she also liked a military A-2. She did not like the elastic around the sleeves and the waist of the A-2. She did like the pockets on the military jacket. She asked Peter if he could make a James Dean jacket but with the pockets from the military A-2. Peter said that he could.

This was on a saturday, and Deborah Nadoolman said that if Peter could make those jackets, she would take ten of them, if he could have them in France by that tuesday. Peter said that he could and he did.

[Hemingway Jones]

Yes, what he said.

[Swindiana]

I think that would be useful on the main pages when the time comes, Bufflehead. Though I've heard bits of it before it was nice to get it all in print, so to speak. Thanks for sharing!

Regards,
Swindinaa

[Scandinavia Jones]

There was a discussion re: Dean's Harrington jacket and it's Indy relevance a few months back - Here's the VP:

viewtopic.php?t=12738

[Alabama Jones]

A quick google search and some results come up like this:

http://www.newterritoryleathers.com/men ... mJkts.html

Sort of Indy-ish without the A2 pockets.

Alabama, I actually like those jackets. If I didn't have a Wested and had no intentions of getting an Indy jacket, I'd probably get one of those.
Mike

Yeah, me too, Joe.

I will say, as "off" as EDIT I meant the one posted by PLATON in this thread.viewtopic.php?t=16532&highlight=,I would have killed for a jacket that "close" in 1984.

Buff: Cool story. I thought I remembered you posting that before but couldn't remember where.

... Deborah Nadoolman liked a James Dean jacket that Peter had and she also liked a military A-2. id.

Based on the above, can we assume that the "James Dean jacket" Peter showed DN ^ was indeed a leather one and not the famous cloth one? Or am I just reading too much into it.

[Hemingway Jones]

The working model, the mock-up, if you will, for the Indy jacket was made out of cloth and it was based upon the James Dean jacket.

[Michaelson]

What I've always found amusing is that in another interview that DN did, she said she never even HEARD of Peter Botwright before....so......

Regards! Michaelson

[Alabama Jones]

Thanks Hemingway. Sorry to be so dense, but my understanding from Bufflehead's and others' reports is that Peter was asked to show Noodle some jackets that might work. Why would he have shown her a cloth jacket? There wouldn't have been a "mock-up" at that point, would there?

Only reason I ask is that Dean also wore leather jackets and many are sold today as "the James Dean jacket" ( like the llink I posted) even though most of us think of the famous red cloth one. Sorry, I 've just always wondered *which* Dean jacket was the inspiration and I'm just trying to confirm it in my obsessive-compulsive head.

What I've always found amusing is that in another interview that DN did, she said she never even HEARD of Peter Botwright before....so......

Maybe noodle-head is ... er ... no stranger to the bottle".

[McFly]

What I've always found amusing is that in another interview that DN did, she said she never even HEARD of Peter Botwright before....so......

Regards! Michaelson

She also said Indy wore RedWings...

In Christ,
Shane

[Hemingway Jones]

Thanks Hemingway. Sorry to be so dense, but my understanding from Bufflehead's and others' reports is that Peter was asked to show Noodle some jackets that might work. Why would he have shown her a cloth jacket? There wouldn't have been a "mock-up" at that point, would there?

Only reason I ask is that Dean also wore leather jackets and many are sold today as "the James Dean jacket" ( like the llink I posted) even though most of us think of the famous red cloth one. Sorry, I 've just always wondered *which* Dean jacket was the inspiration and I'm just trying to confirm it in my obsessive-compulsive head.

Maybe noodle-head is ... er ... no stranger to the bottle".

He had some A-2s from other productions and had or made a mock up of the Dean Jacket. This is what he told MK and I. You could always email him for claification.

By the way, when did James Dean ever wear a leather jacket? Certainly the red cloth jacket is THE jacket, but I can't think of him in leather. In "East of Eden," he dressed classically, in "Giant," he wore a vest and western jackets, and in "Rebel," he wore the cloth jacket. The famous photo of him in Times Square, he is wearing a suit jacket.

I don't think I've ever seen him in leather, but Brando... That's another story.

[Ark Hunter]

Yeah, I was just wondring about the JD the other day also. Even googled it.

How about this one?

[Alabama Jones]

I don't think I've ever seen him in leather, but Brando... That's another story.

He wore them all the time, albeit more so in his personal life because he loved motorcycles.



And there are all the "James Dean Jackets" for sale like this one.



There's no doubt that the red jacket from "Rebel" is what most think of ; its an ICON. I just don't understand why Peter would have shown a cloth jacket in response to the request. Maybe it was a leather jacket based on the red jacket? Maybe it was a combination of what Dean and his costar Sal Mineo wore (which was leather) that inspired it. But JD did wear and was known for leather jackets, just not so much, in his films.

I wish Peter would see and weigh in. Maybe I will e-mail him. But hey, if that was what he told you and MK, thats good enough for me.

[Ark Hunter]

He's even got leather work gloves on! How Indy.

[Heyjude7]

Hey i have the James Dean Jacket from Rebel without a cause. It was sold back in the 80's by a company i think called Jasco.. its a red wind breaker material like the origianl worn by Mr. Dean himself.. just for everyone's info.. its my imput of useless info
cheers!

[VP]

Here's the VP

I wonder if anybody else is being referred to so much in here at the moment. Seems like I'm mentioned in every thread with links.

[Heyjude7]

James Dean is the man! That jacket set me back $100 ..thats alot i think for a wind breaker..but its Dean!

[SHARPETOYS]

Thats what I read.

Classic 1950's style jackets, based on the design of the famous 'McGregor Anti-Freeze' jacket worn by James Dean in Rebel Without A Cause

[SkyChief]

Based on the above, can we assume that the "James Dean jacket" Peter showed DN ^ was indeed a leather one and not the famous cloth one? Or am I just reading too much into it.

I'm with Alabama. I've never took it to mean Peter had any coats that were anything like Dean's cloth jacket. I think people are just assuming this because it's the only "famous" coat Dean wore in a movie. Although he was photographed in other leather jackets. I'm assuming Peter had designed a leather jacket inspired by James Dean which he either called The James Dean coat, or Nadoolman simply referred to a coat at the shop as a James Dean coat because it fit her idea of what somebody might picture Dean wearing. In any event, I think the red "Rebel" coat has nothing to do with the Indy jacket.

By the way, when did James Dean ever wear a leather jacket? Certainly the red cloth jacket is THE jacket, but I can't think of him in leather. In "East of Eden," he dressed classically, in "Giant," he wore a vest and western jackets, and in "Rebel," he wore the cloth jacket. The famous photo of him in Times Square, he is wearing a suit jacket.

I don't think I've ever seen him in leather, but Brando... That's another story.

Yeah I mean the guy's an icon. He personified a lifestyle and an ideal, and as Alabama pointed out he often wore leather jackets in his personal life. He represented youth and adventure and living fast. He rode a motorcyle and drove fast cars. Heck even if he never wore a leather jacket, I'm sure there would still be a James Dean leather jacket being offered somewhere. He was bigger than his three movies. Just because something has been dubbed "The James Dean -Whatever-" it doesn't necessarily mean it came from any of the films.

Anyway, just tossing in my two cents. Maybe Peter can shed some light on this one?

[Hemingway Jones]

The first Raiders jacket was cloth and it was a copy of Dean's cloth "Rebel" jacket. This was the mock-up that he and Deborah were tinkering with to come up with the Indy jacket. As it was described, it was a flimsy piece of cloth used as a 3-dimensional model of what the jacket could be.
He pulled out an A-2 in a discussion about the pockets and they decided to not include the elastic on the cuffs and waist on the finished jacket.
Once they agreed on the design, Peter had four days to make ten of them out of leather.
It was indeed cloth and it was indeed modeled after the "Rebel."
This from Peter to me at The Observation Bar of the Queen Mary.

[Bufflehead Jones]

HJ, he said that they worked out the design on saturday and he had to have them in France on tuesday. It occurred over four days, but he really had far less time to actually make the jackets. It's hard to believe that it happened so fast.

[binkmeisterRick]

I bet that's commonplace in the movie business.

[Michaelson]

No WONDER he had no problems 'creating' a cloth Raiders jacket in such short order. It was a 'been there, done that' situation!!

Regards! Michaelson

[Bufflehead Jones]

Waiting 'til the last minute and then running around like chickens with their heads cut off, happens quite often in government work, also.

[Michaelson]

An everyday event around MY work area.

Regards! Michaelson

[SkyChief]

The first Raiders jacket was cloth and it was a copy of Dean's cloth "Rebel" jacket.
It was indeed cloth and it was indeed modeled after the "Rebel."
This from Peter to me at The Observation Bar of the Queen Mary.

See I've always been a little leary of relying on second-hand accounts, because, as you can see below, Ken reports to have heard something different from Peter:

I was speaking to Peter yesterday and heard the about the James Dean jacket for the first time. Basically they took the james jean jacket, took the top breast pocket off, added A2 pockets and extened the action pleats at the back and that was how the Indy jacket we know and love came into existence.

I've boldened (is that a word?) a few key areas above. First, I'm not sure if it was just a typo when Ken said "the james jean jacket." Did he mean to type "james dean," or was the jacket denim? Anyway, that's not too important. The main points that caught my interest were in the fact that Ken mentions a top breast pocket and action pleats, two features which I know I've never seen on the red cloth jacket worn by James Dean in A Rebel Without A Cause. However these are features that I've seen in leather jackets that are inspired by James Dean.

Hemingway you say Peter told you the jacket was based on James Dean's red cloth jacket from A Rebel Without A Cause, and Ken relays information which places a pocket and pleats on the coat, two features which are absent from the Rebel jacket. The stories don't match. I don't doubt either of you at all, as you're simply telling us what you were told. I just don't know which story is true.

Although I wasn't able to find any posts of Peter's which mention James Dean or a James Dean jacket, we all basically believe that at some point before Raiders, an A-2 military jacket was 'morphed' with some kind of a James Dean jacket, and this is what became the Indiana Jones coat. We all seem to agree on this. But which James Dean jacket?

Was it the red cloth jacket from A Rebel Without A Cause.
-or-
Was it another jacket (leather, denim, whatever) which had a top breast pocket and action pleats on the back?

Again, maybe Peter can shed some light on this one?

[Hemingway Jones]

Hemingway you say Peter told you the jacket was based on James Dean's red cloth jacket from A Rebel Without A Cause, and Ken relays information which places a pocket and pleats on the coat, two features which are absent from the Rebel jacket. The stories don't match. I don't doubt either of you at all, as you're simply telling us what you were told. I just don't know which story is true.

These statements are not mutually exclusive. Ken's comments are above and I said that Peter had a cloth mock-up of a jacket he called his James Dean jacket based on the "Rebel" jacket. I never said, and Peter never said, it was an identical copy; merely based on, and inspired by.

I suggest you show up at the next event Peter attends, then you can listen to the story first hand.

[SkyChief]

I never said, and Peter never said, it was an identical copy; merely based on, and inspired by.

I'm sorry, I guess you didn't say that.

The first Raiders jacket was cloth and it was a copy of Dean's cloth "Rebel" jacket.

Or wait...hmm, sorry I got confused. In any event we now know that Peter's "James Dean" coat was not in fact identical to what Dean wore in the movie A Rebel Without A Cause. Thank you for clarifying that.

pmarlowe started this thread out of curiosity as to what Peter's "James Dean" jacket looked like.

So what I can gather is this:

Peter had (either in inventory or in his possession) a coat which he says was based on, but not identical to, the red cloth windbreaker that James Dean wore in A Rebel Without A Cause. Now we know Peter's "James Dean" coat had a top breast pocket, because that's what he told Ken. What's unclear, however, is whether or not his James Dean coat had action pleats. Hemingway you were told the action pleats were added to the Indy jacket, and Ken was told the action pleats were extended (meaning they were already present on Peter's "James Dean" coat). What we also don't know is whether or not Peter's "James Dean" coat had an elastic waist.

The working model, the mock-up, if you will, for the Indy jacket was made out of cloth and it was based upon the James Dean jacket.

This makes perfect sense, as I assume it's standard practice in any sort of clothing design to use inexpensive cloth to make mock-ups and prototypes before trying patterns with the real material.

But the part that I'm curious about (and Alabama Jones too) is, the mock-up for the Indy jacket was cloth, okay, and the mock-up was based on Peter's "James Dean" coat, but, what was Peter's "James Dean" coat made out of? If it had action pleats like Peter told Ken it did, I would assume it was made out of leather.

The mock-up was cloth, but was anybody told, by Peter, that his "James Dean" jacket was also made out of cloth?

I suggest you show up at the next event Peter attends, then you can listen to the story first hand.

Since Peter's an active participant here at the forum, I thought maybe I'd decline traveling hundreds of miles and spending hundreds of dollars to hear the story first-hand, when it would take but a few keystrokes from Peter to relay the story here. Plus, that way we could all see it at the same time and read the same words. But thanks for the suggestion.

[Hemingway Jones]

Since Peter's an active participant here at the forum, I thought maybe I'd decline traveling hundreds of miles and spending hundreds of dollars to hear the story first-hand, when it would take but a few keystrokes from Peter to relay the story here. Plus, that way we could all see it at the same time and read the same words. But thanks for the suggestion.

Just a little innocent ribbing there, my friend.
The "James Dean" jacket as I understood it was not in stock, but rather the mock-up that Peter made as a model, out of cloth, and from his imagination to show Deborah as a starting point, or Genesis, for the Indy Jacket.
I imagine (Conjecture on my part) that he knew he had to come up with a costume, thought: James Dean, whipped up something similar to the "Rebel" (he did specify this), perhaps with action pleats behind the shoulders (I think I remember something about that; this might be what Ken is referring to -I was drinking at the time!), then he crossed it with the A-2 and voila' Indy jacket.
How is that? Clear as mud?
Perhaps, you should go to Kent and find out first hand.

[SkyChief]

The "James Dean" jacket as I understood it was not in stock, but rather the mock-up that Peter made as a model, out of cloth, and from his imagination to show Deborah as a starting point, or Genesis, for the Indy Jacket.

Deborah Nadoolman liked a James Dean jacket that Peter had and she also liked a military A-2.

Okay, one first-hand listener understood that the mock-up for the Indy jacket is what has been dubbed Peter's "James Dean" jacket, and another first-hand listener is under the impression that Peter's "James Dean" jacket was something he already had on-hand (possibly in inventory), prior to Nadoolman's arrival. Guys, am I accurate in assuming this?

...I was drinking at the time!

Woah, careful, this is a family-friendly forum... I trust you were enjoying a nice Root Beer.

How is that? Clear as mud?
Perhaps, you should go to Kent and find out first hand.

I really do appreciate your input, Hemingway. It's intriguing to find out that three accounts given to three different fans would be anything less than identical. But again, I'll refrain from pursuing the chance to hear the story in person, as I wouldn't know which one I'd hear.

Peter, I understand you're out of town at the moment, but it'd be great if you could pop in and give us the scoop when you get back. Thanks!

[agent5]

Woah, careful, this is a family-friendly forum... I trust you were enjoying a nice Root Beer.

LOL! Good one.

Peter (to my knowledge) NEVER replies to pm's here, just to let you know. I've sent him several and also heard that others have done the same with no results. You may want to start a separate thread with his name in the title so you can be sure he'd see it. Weird though how he never answers his pm's.

[Bufflehead Jones]

Peter just mentioned the James Dean jacket. He didn't say which James Dean jacket, what it was made out of, if Peter made it or someone else made it, wether he had it in his inventory or made it up just for the occasion, and I didn't ask. Sheesh....

[Michaelson]

Peter has answered PM's. Not often, but he does occasionally answer them.

Regards! Michaelson

[SkyChief]

You may want to start a separate thread with his name in the title so you can be sure he'd see it.

Thanks for the tip, Agent5! I may just do that when Peter gets back to the office.

Peter just mentioned the James Dean jacket. He didn't say which James Dean jacket, what it was made out of, if Peter made it or someone else made it, wether he had it in his inventory or made it up just for the occasion, and I didn't ask.

But as you understood it, Peter already had the jacket, correct? Hemingway understood that Peter created the jacket for the fitting.

Sheesh....

Sorry, let's get back to discussing the minutia of Indy's reading glasses or how many stitches are in his pants pockets.

[Bjones]

Minutia was just the word I was thinking of....this thread is downright exhausting to read. But I guess that's what we're here for.....

[SkyChief]

Minutia was just the word I was thinking of....this thread is downright exhausting to read.

Cool, then it fits right in.

[Alan Eardley]

The red gabardine windbreaker worn by JD in RWAC was a McGregor Anti-Freeze. It bears no resemblance that I can see to an jacket made by Wested.

Dean also wore leather jackets - a Trojan and occasionally a Buco appear in photographs - but these are nothing like a Wested either..

[Scandinavia Jones]

The red gabardine windbreaker worn by JD in RWAC was a McGregor Anti-Freeze.

Hey - that's a cool bit of info, Mr. Eardley - cheers! Great to have a brand name to the Rebel jacket.

[Hemingway Jones]

The red gabardine windbreaker worn by JD in RWAC was a McGregor Anti-Freeze.

Hey - that's a cool bit of info, Mr. Eardley - cheers! Great to have a brand name to the Rebel jacket.

You really have to read the entire thread.


SkyChief, here's to minutia; exactly why we're here.

[SkyChief]

SkyChief, here's to minutia; exactly why we're here.

Hey I'll drink to that. Got any more of that Root Beer?

[Scandinavia Jones]

quote]You really have to read the entire thread.

Ah, I see. Missed SHARPETOYS namedrop earlier. Post must've been too short or someting... scrolled right past it.

[Bufflehead Jones]

The red gabardine windbreaker worn by JD in RWAC was a McGregor Anti-Freeze.

WOW! A windbreaker that protects to 30 below. I've got to get me one of those.

[Michaelson]

buff, no where does it say you'll still be ALIVE at that temp...it just said 'protects' to that temp....preserves the body for later pickup I suppose....

Regards! Michaelson

[Bufflehead Jones]

What happens if it's not raining, do you still have to mix it 50/50 with water?