With or Against

[jabahutt70]

Hey guys, lemme pick your brains some more.
We read a lot about cracking a whip with or against the natural curve, or spine, if you will. Mike Murphy states on his web site in the FAQs, that it's really no big deal to him which way to crack a whip, and that one school of thought is to rotate the handle of the whip (in this case, bullwhip) in order to allow the whip to flex evenly in every direction. I tend to agree w/ this, but I know some don't. What are some of your thoughts and why?

Another question, probably more for the whip-makers: what is it, in the construction of the whip, which creates this spine, or gives it the curve. I have an idea, but would appreciate some other perspectives? Does it have anything to do w/ the angle the strands are being pulled while plaiting, or have something to do w/ how bolsters are attached? Tell me what you think. Thanks.

Steve.

[winrichwhips]

I personally crack whips with the spine or bias of the whip and I try to use it to my advantage.

Here's my ideas of how the spine is formed:

I think it's both the plaiting and the bolsters that contribute to the bias or spine in a whip. Where the bolster edges meet is usually where a 'spine' will turn up, and the belly (underside of the spine) will be between these edges. With braiding, if it's braided tight, the front (or part of the braiding that was facing the braider while he was working) will end up tighter than the back, so the front ends up as a belly and the back ends up as a spine. With looser braiding this effect is less noticeable.

Some whipmakers try to vary the orientation of the bolster edges and the front of the braiding to make a whip that will ideally have no bias. I personally have found that if I work to align all of these biases that the whip cracks better. It seems to make for a whip that wants to throw itself in a straight line.

A note of clarification, when I refer to a 'belly' in this instance I am not refering to the braider inner layers of a whip, but the inner curve of a whip when it's coiled.

-Adam, www.winrichwhips.com

[BullWhipBorton]

Steve, There are definitely two main schools of whip cracking, with the natural curve and against natural curve. There was a big discussion here at Indy gear several years ago on the pros and cons of both, however; it was unfortunately lost when the forum crashed. Some of the old timers might remember it, but we had some pretty heavy hitters in the whip-cracking world weigh in on the subject and the consensus was as long as your cracking with or against the belly, your fine, that it doesn’t matter and won’t ruin the whips. You may have heard otherwise as there are some traditionalists that firmly believe that cracking a whip against the curve is the wrong way to do it and is bad for a bullwhip. I disagree with that philosophy and I have never seen any physical evidence to support it. I am a big fan of both styles and I try to incorporate all of it into my own skill and style.

I’ll let the whip makers handle the other part of your question. Regards.

Dan

[thefish]

I thought for a while of making the subject of this response "Dan vs. Dan: Point/Counterpoint,"

Here's my take on this: Your mileage may vary.

Cracking AGAINST the natural curve of the whip, (i.e. as Adam Winrich rightly put it, "Belly Up,") is the method used by many whip crackers, particularly Hollywood Stuntman and Fight Coordinator, Anthony DeLongis. He uses this method to slow the whip down somewhat and make it's movement easier to photograph, (he has a point, though I have proof that it's not necessary, and will hopefully prove it further in the next few months. But then, I also believe that the camera must be able to cross both fire and water... So I have far more faith in the medium.)

It also "telegraphs" it somewhat for stage and theater work. This works well, as while you can slow down a sword on stage and make it look good, it's a little more difficult to slow down a whip, which is inherantly designed to be supersonic. Slow and steady. Good plan for theatrical work. This method also doesn't concentrate as much energy into the whip, which is an important thing when hits and wraps have to be performed by actors who are not incredibly experienced with the whip.

For more on this, read Anthony DeLongis's article "Faster Than a Speeding Bullet: The Ultimate Flexible Weapon" on the "Latigo y Daga" site, here:

http://www.filipinofightingwhip.blogspot.com/

Now, when I first read this, my response was, "What the heck is this guy thinking?" but I have come to understand what he's getting at. While I am still no great proponant of this method, I am quite capable of cracking like this and plan to occasionally use it myself.

The OPPOSITE method, which I prefer to see and prefer to utilize myself, has the whip thrown spine up. This method uses the whip's natural curve to help accelerate it faster. The whip wants to curl under, and the normal method of throwing helps it do that. This method focuses more energy into the whip, make it's crack faster, (and louder, as Delongis mentions,) by focusing the energy of the wave into the tip of the whip.

It is this process that makes the whip naturally roll out and go supersonic. It is this process that gives a narrow strip of leather with a fluffy piece of baling twine on the end the ability to slice through flesh as easily as a scalpel and shatter bones as easily as a hammer.

Likewise, I find that throwing whips in this manner keeps the transition area above the handle good and tight which aids in the accuracy and ease of cracking for the whip. All of the Aussies I know throw whips this way. All the WWAC competitors I know throw whips in this way. All the martial artists I know throw whips in this way.

Cracking in this manner is, I think, the most beautiful expression of power, grace, energy transfer, and kinetic beauty that can be experienced.

But it all boils down to priorities. My priority when I crack a whip is often to feel first hand the power, beauty, and perfect "Zen" feeling of cause and effect, leverage, and wave mechanics that is whip cracking.

Anthony DeLongis's priority is to capture that same feeling, but in such a way that it is safe for everyone involved, (which otherwise, it wouldn't be. ANYTHING accelerated past 700 MPH is potentially deadly!) After reading DeLongis's article, I had my wife watch me throw a whip both ways, and she couldn't tell a difference. And it was noticably slower to me, (the thrower,) and had FAR less energy in the fall when it cracked. I can tell the difference on screen and off. But I crack whips a lot, and I edit video for a living, (and tend to pick out @#$% from single frames of video zipping by at 30 frames/second. It's a curse. Really.)

I see why he does it. Just prefer the look, feel and resultant way the whip breaks in from the "Spine Up" method.

My two cents. Sorry if I ramble, It's been a long day, and I'm pretty tired.

-Dan

[Antone]

Hi guys,

Great topic!

All I can add to this is that, having met, taken lessons from, and observed Anthony de Longis at work with a whip, I think there are certainly more advantages to his method than merely allowing slower movements. I was amazed at how quickly he was able to teach complete beginners to crack the whip with impressive accuracy. I would also add that he is perfectly capable of cracking loudly and quickly when he so chooses! He has also had excellent martial arts training, and I have no doubt as to the effectiveness of his methods in combat.

In the seminar which I attended, his method of cracking was taught slowly so as to facilitate accuracy and control; it does not require as much space to perform as some other methods of cracking; and a properly performed throw does not require a great deal of force. At least, these are main benefits I recall being emphasized and taught.

If anyone here ever gets the chance to see him in action or take a class from him, I highly recommend it BTW.

Best regards,

Antone

[BullWhipBorton]

There really is much more to that style of whip cracking that is mentioned in that article. Dan, if you haven’t already, I really recommend checking out Anthony Delongis’s training videos or DVDs. Even if that’s not your prefer method, I think you, or any one interested in whip cracking for that matter would get a lot out of them. Not only would it help you understand the philosophy behind that style of whip work, it also presents some very sound training tips that work with either style. I tend to view it more as a complementary style; each with advantages and disadvantages rather then one vs. the other, but the things you mention “power, beauty, and perfect "Zen" feeling of cause and effect, leverage, and wave mechanics that is whip cracking seem to be” very much what this style is about. It does becomes an exercise in minimalism where less is more but the more power you put in the more you get out, so small and subtle variations will cause significant changes in the throw where you can speed things way up or slow them way down. The video, Whip cracking with the Masters is a decent culmination of his work, but Mastering the Bullwhip Vol. 1 and 2 get much more in depth into the how’s and the whys. Vol. 2 also has a great segment with Tom Meadows and an introduction to the Filipino Fighting whip system that you are interested in. Far be it from me to try change anyones mind on what they like or dislike, that’s not why I am here. I would rather try to encouraging others be open to new ideas in whip handling skills, as it will make you a better whip handler in the long run. All the best.

Dan

[jabahutt70]

I think it's both the plaiting and the bolsters that contribute to the bias or spine in a whip. Where the bolster edges meet is usually where a 'spine' will turn up, and the belly (underside of the spine) will be between these edges. With braiding, if it's braided tight, the front (or part of the braiding that was facing the braider while he was working) will end up tighter than the back, so the front ends up as a belly and the back ends up as a spine. With looser braiding this effect is less noticeable.

-Adam, www.winrichwhips.com

Thanks Adam~
That was my idea also. It seems to sound logical that both plaiting and the closed edge of the bolsters would contribute to forming the spine. So it makes sense also that if no bolsters were used, the bias would be lessened considerably. Thanks for the input.

Steve.

[thefish]

There really is much more to that style of whip cracking that is mentioned in that article. Dan, if you haven’t already, I really recommend checking out Anthony Delongis’s training videos or DVDs.

I tend to not watch instructional videos. I've produced too many of the darn things, and can't actually learn from them, because I'm too busy looking at how they did the video rather than what the video is about.

I know.

I am a sick man.



I am getting the book, though.

-Dan

[Snakewhip_Sable]

wow. It never occured to me to crack a whip that way - it almost seems like it's 'backwards' to do hold the whip spine down/belly up.

[thefish]

As stated, it does have practical applications for theatrical and cinematic work, and I CAN do both. I just prefer the "Spine Up" approach.

And I do know that there is more to the DeLongis method than what is in that article. You don't condense 20 years of work down to 3 or so pages. He does nicely summarize though.

[BullWhipBorton]

No Worries Dan, Unfortunately I don’t really know a lot about your background/experience in whip cracking. In this instance I thought it was best to error on the side of caution It really was a good article and I for one am glad you posted it.

I tend to not watch instructional videos. I've produced too many of the darn things, and can't actually learn from them, because I'm too busy looking at how they did the video rather than what the video is about.

The audio and lighting on some of those tapes are a bit iffy to say the least, you would probably have a field day picking them apart

All the best.

Dan