Is it possible that the costumers from Raiders..........

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:33 pm

................had hat blocks and used them? I am serious here. Why has HJ not been able to furnish a hat that creases out like the film hat? Has anyone ever seen a stovepipe straight hat from HJ? Recently? One thing that I have learned from making hats, is when you look at a finished, creased hat, the overall shape is still gonna be very close to the open crown shape in the critical areas. So, if you start with a hat that has taper as viewed from the front, creasing the hat might take a smidgen out, depending upon how far back you put the front creases in, but it will still have some taper. You cannot crease all of it out. Now, in order to have a good bit of dome on the top, as the new HJ block exhibits, the sides have to taper to achieve the dome. That is, if the block is to have smooth transitions, which all hat blocks have. You either have a straight sided hat with less dome, or you have more dome with the related taper. Now, try and draw one out, with the max height being 6 inchs. It is something that I did a few years ago when researching the Raiders block shape. The "more dome" idea discarded itself when you try to work it out. I just do not see how the old HJ block, or the new one ever created the hat we all love. But perhaps, I have just looked too hard, for too long. Fresh eyes are always welcomed.

Fedora

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:53 am

As strange as it is that they can't produce the right block, I don't think the boys at lucasfilm had their own block, because that would require them to know something about hat care, and if they knew anything about hats, they probably would have been a bit less...reckless with such fine hats, just out of respect for the workmanship that went into them. :junior: -IJ

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:14 am

I would aggree with you Steve, had it not been for that 8 ó clock HJ from their vintage catalogue... I'm still convinced that this hat was made on THE block.

I think it simply got lost during one of their movements or ownership changes. OR *a new idea entering the mind* they bought them that way from their supplier, put in their own sweatbands and liners (or had that done from their supplier already), et voilá.

Regards,

Marc

Antone · Post by **Antone** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:43 am

Steve,

I also just can't see the costume department doing a reblock, since I really don't think they were quite as concerned about the look of the hat as we are

I have to agree with Marc; I think you guys were right about the picture from the catalog being the Raiders block. I think a few of the vintage HJs you've posted, with the correct bash and ribbon, are dead ringers for the Raiders hat; all they'd need is a bit of distressing to be indistinguishable.

Marc wrote: OR *a new idea entering the mind* they bought them that way from their supplier, put in their own sweatbands and liners (or had that done from their supplier already), et voilá.

Now this is an interesting idea! That would explain why HJ has never been able to get the block right since Raiders; they never had the Raiders block to begin with! This would put us back to square one though, since we still don't know who was the supplier for the original (Brazilian?) hats (please correct me if I'm wrong). Still, it would make sense...

Antone

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:56 am

OR *a new idea entering the mind* they bought them that way from their supplier, put in their own sweatbands and liners (or had that done from their supplier already), et voilá.

Now this is an interesting idea! That would explain why HJ has never been able to get the block right since Raiders; they never had the Raiders block to begin with!

Yeah, that is my assumption as well. Either HJ did their own hats, at that time, or their hats were subcontracted out to another hat factory. If they did their own hats, they have forgot, or lost the block. If someone else was making the hats, then they had that block style and HJ never had it. I am starting to lean to the latter, although this would not explain the vintage HJs that I have seen, when in fact, HJ did make their own hats. Or did they? I do not know enough about them to know if they always subbed their hats out to another hatter and just had their labels installed. I know I have a Stetson from HJ, so they did carry other brands, at least at one time. If this important point can be answered, I think we can surmise whether they ever made their own hats. And that would be important. Fedora

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:06 am

I wish this question had come up 15+ years ago. I was in several phone conversations with the Paramount Studio prop department folks right after Temple of Doom had been produced, and those folks would be the ones who actually handled all props and costuming materials during productions. This stuff wasn't handled by Lucasfilm, but WAS turned over to them AFTER the movie was in the can.

Their collective memory was getting fuzzy when I was talking to them in the mid 80's when it came to Raiders. I'd say everyone involved is gone, or probably don't remember DOING Raiders of the Lost Ark now.

This theory holds water for me, as they DID once say they were responsible for cleaning the Hero jackets as much as they could, without damaging them any more than they had to. If they were handling the jackets, why not the hats? Western Costume could have been involved as well if, you want to toss THAT wrench into the works!

Regards! Michaelson

G-MANN · Post by **G-MANN** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:27 pm

Hello Gentlemen,

I do not have anything to add about the HJ Co. or the blocks that they originally used. However from everything that I have seen on this site about the AB Fedora is that YOU have the Raiders block now. I don't even have an AB yet but I KNOW that when I do I will be as happy with it as I would if you gave me the one right off of Ford's head. I can see the pride of all the people here that own them and post about them.

HJ is Dead ! Long Live AB !

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:24 pm

I've always said you can never discount what was done to any costume part after it was delivered to the costume designer and staff.
If something was not as HF liked after he got it, guess what?, they'd make some changes. If it was not exacty as they asked it to be, they'd make changes. If they decide at the last minute they want to make some changes, they will. This is all very common in movie making.

LIke the Kennedy assassination, I guess we'll just never know for sure. It's nice though it's nice to have a place to speculate over this stuff that'll never make a difference in my life with other people who feel the same way and have nothing better to do.

It's all good though.

Antone · Post by **Antone** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 8:21 pm

Related to all this, where did the story about HJ using an "unknown Brazilian hatmaker" originally come from? Was that story from Swales or someone else at HJ?

The place I would start looking would be to find a copy of that old HJ catalog with the hat from the Raiders block which has legible text and see what it says about that hat. Too bad no one knows any older hatmaker gurus from Brazil who could give us some leads on hat companies there in the late 70s. This Brazilian hat story becomes more intriguing the more I think about it.

Antone

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:12 pm

Swales was the source of the information.

Regards!

Michaelson

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:15 pm

The place I would start looking would be to find a copy of that old HJ catalog

Michaelson???

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:43 pm

Didn't you say you thought this vintage HJ was just about the Raiders block Fedora?

Have you got a side view?

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:52 pm

I'd also love to see an unbashed AB next to the HJ in that pic. From all sides, please, if you can.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:19 am

It wouldn't really help you Jason, as Steve and I have modifyed our blocks to match the felt et vice versa.

For example: due to the higher density of a well made beaver felt, it reacts slightly different from how a rabbit felt with the same thickness would. With that said, if you'd pull one of our hats off of the original Raiders block and crease it, you wouldn't get the same results. Stiffness, density and how the felt behaves when exposed to steam are just some factors that makes it so hard to create a block that gives you the desired results. So in order to get it right, you have to block a body, crease it, and if it doesn't look right ('cause the felt behaves differently), you gotta go back to the drawing board and reconsider how to compensate this behaviour in the block shape. Take a loser vintage felt (I mean REAL vintage - from the 20's or 30's) and block it on either Steve or my block. Once you crease it, you'll have a reverse taper and to a degree that it looks plain ugly. That is part of why HJ cannot make the hat they made back then (THE block would show in an open crown state though, if they'd use it): they don't use the same felt and even if they'd use the same felter, it wouldn't garuantee, that it would have the same density, thickness, floppyness...whatsoever. It wouldn't have taken Steve and me 10 months plus to copy the block shape of an older HJ

Regards,

Marc

Antone · Post by **Antone** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:31 am

I can't imagine that's anything but the Raiders block. I even recall in one interview Nadoolman saying that the hat they started with had a wider ribbon on it at first, 45 or 50mm, which they replaced with the 39mm to make the crown look even taller, so that would have to be the exact form of hat they started with...

What I'm wondering is whether that hat had a dimensional cut on the brim when you got it, since I recall in the same interview they said they trimmed the brim dimensionally to make Harrison Ford's face more visible during filming. If that brim isn't dimensional cut, that may be a pre-Raiders Raiders fedora...

Antone

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:41 am

agent5 wrote:
The place I would start looking would be to find a copy of that old HJ catalog
Michaelson???

Still looking.

Regards! Michaelson

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:04 am

Have you got a side view?

Here ya go.

This is the block shape that works with my felt.

Here is the vintage HJ from the front.

And here is mine from the front.

Now, understand, that I shot the pics from different angles when you compare the vintage HJ to my Indy block. Regards, Fedora

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:18 am

So in order to get it right, you have to block a body, crease it, and if it doesn't look right ('cause the felt behaves differently), you gotta go back to the drawing board and reconsider how to compensate this behaviour in the block shape.

All too true, and it will make you go bald!! Both Marc and I have less hair after the experience! And, they do not teach this in hatting 101. I think this may be one of the "secrets" that hatters love to keep-secret.

Fedora

prairiejones · Post by **prairiejones** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:30 am

I recognise that last hat.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:23 am

Thanks for the comparrison pics, Steve. Looks like your block is incredibly close, at least to the shape of that vintage HJ. The differences are almost too slight to notice at all.

Now if we could only get some sort of evidence that that was the actual Raiders block used to block that HJ...

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:25 pm

Thanks for the comparrison pics, Steve. Looks like your block is incredibly close, at least to the shape of that vintage HJ. The differences are almost too slight to notice at all. Now if we could only get some sort of evidence that that was the actual Raiders block used to block that HJ...

Yeah, I know what you mean. In order to arrive at what we arrived at, we had to reverse engineer. So the closeness of my block was arrived at without that vintage HJ. I have only had it for a short while. Wish I would of had it sooner. For my block shape, I basically used our Administrator's HJ that came from Lee Keppler, back when he was getting them from Mr. Swales. I had already started tweaking my original bondo/vintage contraption, when I got to see his, in hand. I used it to finish up what I was working on.

Then Marc and I refined some nuances that we were uncertain about because Mike's hat had tapered just a bit in critical areas. When I got the vintage HJ, I was gratified that we had practically the same block shape, and apparently, it had been around for many years. Mike actually had the correct Raiders blocked hat, an HJ, so at one time, Mr. Swales still had that block shape in stock. Sometimes you got the Raiders fedora from him, sometimes the LC. Fedora

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:15 pm

I loved the way the vintage HJ creased out.

Hard to get that look with a hat that is tapered front and back to any substantial degree. Most hat blocks that you see have this fault of too much taper. You want some, but not too much. But, with a completely straight front and back, you get too much reverse taper. Too much? Yep, you can go overboard with it, to the point that it looks weird. There is a fine line you have to walk. Fedora

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:08 pm

But, with a completely straight front and back, you get too much reverse taper.

Depends on the felt my friend. Try and reblock a PB on a straight sided block and I'll bet that you will NOT have a reverse taper, once you crease it

Regards,

Marc

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:46 pm

Thanks for the pics Fedora! Here's my block. Looks similar from the front.

It's a 360 stovepipe, and has more of a front to back dome from the side.

. Yeah Mark, I've only blocked two hats on it, a Miller and a super floppy Tonak. The Miller came out less reverse tapered because of thicker stiffer felt. It needs some front and back taper, but I stopped working on and experimenting on this block when I got the feeling the original block was a telescope, but now I favor the idea it was a hand formed telescope, (if it ever was a telescope). Here's the Miller

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:49 pm

Depends on the felt my friend. Try and reblock a PB on a straight sided block and I'll bet that you will NOT have a reverse taper, once you crease it

Oh, I know that very well!!

How many long distance minutes have we burned up talking about that very thing!!

Here's the Miller

Yeah, looks like you have alot of reverse taper on the back. That is what a soft floppy felt normally will yield. The block looks pretty good that you made. And that is what Marc was talking about in regards, to the sort of felt vs the type of block. There is an interplay between the two, and this probably has something to do with the look. No, it definetely does has something to do with the final look. It ain't rocket science, but it ain't as simple as one would imagine either! Regards, Fedora

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:00 pm

Oh, 3M$, that side shot of your block is exactly what I started out with in the search. I had to add some taper to the front and back to get it to work out for me, and the felt that I use. Marc did the same I think, with his selected felt from Portugal. A tweak here, a tweak there. Marc once told me that if someone were to listen in on our phone converstions, they would chalk us up as complete nuts. I mean, how long can you talk about a block shape. Well, I figure for us it would be measured in days. Hope Homeland Security did not think we were talking in some sort of secret code.

Fedora

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:34 pm

Fedora wrote:Hope Homeland Security did not think we were talking in some sort of secret code. Fedora

Echelon is listening to you

Oklahoma Jones · Post by **Oklahoma Jones** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:08 am

I have been watching this thread and not posting, because I wanted to see other's opinions on the subject. Having said that, I have always wondered if the costumers for the picture used SOMETHING to keep the hats shaped properly...

: How many of us have posted saying we used this or that to try and either get the shape where we want it or to maintain it.......the discussion goes on...........................

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:00 am

As far as i remember, raiders was shot in less than a year... supposing that it was 12 months total and they had... let's imagine about an amount of 4 hats for Mr Ford, it means that they have been used approximately for 3 months each... in 3 months taper is not a big problem. Probably they didnt even know what taper is.

It's just us, indynuts, wanting a forever-untapered hat. But we're not in a film and not many of us change their hats every 3 months