The perfect Herbert Johnson?

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:07 am

As I was typing in another thread, I had a series of ideas. Here is your official warning to duck and cover.

Is it possible for Herbert Johnson to send you an open crowned Poet with the sweatband and liner in a separate bag? Hear me out.

This way, the liner wouldn't be hot glued in, and the area where the crown meets the brim would not be perforated like a piece of notebook paper.

Now, the next bit involves Steve. Hi, Steve.

Well ... or Marc.

Then you send those three items (open crown Poet, liner & sweat) to either of those fine gentlemen, and perhaps for a slight fee (on top of the standard reblock fee Steve charges) they could reblock the hat using their fantastic blocks, sew the sweat/liner in their way, those who own ABs know what I mean ... and either shape it themselves, or send it back to the person open crowned, depending on what they want.

Now, I understand this is a lot to go through for an HJ. They cost a lot as it is, but to pay shipping costs to and fro, as well as whatever fees that would later be charged to sew things in and reblock the hat would most likely total up to more than a beaver Adventurebilt costs. Though, for purists, who want the hats used in the movies ....

Just a thought.

Feel free to poke holes in my little idea all you want, just be careful you don't end up with the brim in one hand, and the crown in the other.

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:20 am

Ok, Strider, I'll start poking.

Its an interesting idea. An HJ like the one we saw in Raiders is indeed the holy grail of Indy hats. But honestly, HJ's over all quality isn't just up to par for the price it would cost. If your gonna spend that much money why not get an AB or AB Deluxe? Now I don't want to sound like the typical bash HJ promote AB post, but honestly, there is not competition IMHO. For me to ever by a new HJ they are gonna have to step it up.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:30 am

I hear you Stider but, it would be better if you could just get a liner nd sweatband from HJ and thn put it in a AB.

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:37 am

jpenman wrote:I hear you Stider but, it would be better if you could just get a liner nd sweatband from HJ and thn put it in a AB.

LOL, hadn't thought of that! Good times.

Weaver, I feel the same way. When other hats start approaching the cost of a beaver AB, I start thinking the same things. I mean, if the hat in question is not on par as far as quality with the AB, then why get it? Why not get the AB instead and either pay just a tad more, or a whole lot less? It's one of the main reasons I bought an AB from Steve as opposed to an HJ from Todd's Costumes. Todd's HJ costs more than Steve's beaver AB, and on top of things, Todd charges for styling. If I am going to pay that much for a hat, might as well be the AB. It's cheaper, and better quality felt, made by a guy who does nothing but make hats, and the styling's free. It just makes good sense, monetarily speaking. No offense, Todd ... just stating the facts.

However, there are members of this board who have bought both the Herbert Johnson fedora, and the Adventurebilt. The reasoning behind their purchase was they bought the HJ simply because it is the hat that was used in the movies. I think it was Dakota Ellison that I am thinking of who did this. Did Bufflehead do it, too? I can't remember. Or was it Jess? Shucks. One of 'em did it!

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:38 am

Now, the next bit involves Steve. Hi, Steve.

Well ... or Marc.

Then you send those three items (open crown Poet, liner & sweat) to either of those fine gentlemen, and perhaps for a slight fee (on top of the standard reblock fee Steve charges) they could reblock the hat using their fantastic blocks, sew the sweat/liner in their way, those who own ABs know what I mean ... and either shape it themselves, or send it back to the person open crowned, depending on what they want.

Well, speaking for myself, I would do it. I can't speak for Marc though. As long as I did not have to deal with the perforated stitch line.

The HJ name still captures my attention, and I am still waiting for "the hat" from them, complete with the right hatters crest. I want an exact copy of the original Raiders fedora. So far, I have not seen it from them, except in vintage HJs, and the one our Administrator got from Lee Keppler years and years ago. Once they supply us with the correct block shape, it will be really obvious to us that they have scored. It will just jump out at ya. Fedora

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:39 am

I agree Strider. Like Steve says there is something magic about the HJ name.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:02 am

As long as I did not have to deal with the perforated stitch line.

Same here partner! If you can get a preferable oversized "rawbody" from HJ with a few yards of ribbon, a liner and a sweatband, I don't have any problems (wet!!!) blocking it and attaching the trimming by hand.

Regards,

Marc

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:42 am

If your gonna spend that much money why not get an AB or AB Deluxe?

Ummm...maybe cuz you want an HJ and not any other hat? Could that be it?

We all understand the quility is not up to parr and even if HJ did their best it still wouldn't top the quality of other offerings here. We all know this. So, why keep asking why? Isn't it obvious that whoever wants it wants it the same way you want any other hat?

I hear you Stider but, it would be better if you could just get a liner nd sweatband from HJ and thn put it in a AB.

Was that a joke? If not, then that is the most rediculous thing I've heard here in a long while. I saw the smiley, but just couldn't be sure if you were serious.

Strider,
Based on what I've heard in the past, you won't get those individual parts from HJ. They may send you extra with a finished hat, but I doubt highly (based on past posts) they'll send the hat unfinished. Why not just get it and have it sent directly to Steve so he can work it and then send it to you when it's done? It seems it would produce the same result.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 12:45 pm

Why not just get it and have it sent directly to Steve so he can work it and then send it to you when it's done? It seems it would produce the same result.

...because he'd refuse to re-block it, after the brim break has been perforated with a sewing machine and so would I...

Regards,

Marc

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:00 pm

I'm not understanding you, Marc.

Steve has reblocked HJ's in the past so what is the difference here? Are you saying then that it can never be reblocked?

VP · Post by VP » Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:13 pm

Not any more, because they break too easily.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:17 pm

Soooo an HJ can never be reblocked. Is that what you're telling me?

VP · Post by VP » Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:19 pm

No, just that the AB guys refuse to do it.

IndianaJames · Post by **IndianaJames** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:27 pm

The problem with this is, the HJ's are NOT the same hats they once were. If one wants a hat with the HJ then by all means this IS a great idea. But if one wants a hat similiar to the quality and syling of the old HJ's, I would go with the AB. From what I have seen, the AB's are a higher quality hat than the current HJ offerings.

2 cents -

I J

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:29 pm

Once again, this is not a quality issue. As already pointed out several times above, we already know and agree that the AB's are of better quality. Some people collect things for other reasons.

Strider,
Well, I know Optimo will reblock your HJ if you wanted to directly send it there. I've seen they've done several reblocks on them in the past with fair results. After all, remember the short crowns they had to work with. The new HJ looks to have a slightly taller crown and would most likely take the block shape better. Perhaps another hatter closer to or in Cali can do the same.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:31 pm

I don't think Steve or Mark want's to take the risk of having two parts in there hands when reblock. Guy's jump in and correct me if I'm wrong on this.

agent 5

Quote:
I hear you Stider but, it would be better if you could just get a liner nd sweatband from HJ and thn put it in a AB.

Was that a joke? If not, then that is the most rediculous thing I've heard here in a long while. I saw the smiley, but just couldn't be sure if you were serious.

Yes, that was a joke. See the

at the end.
the thread was posted as the perfect HJ. I think the only way you can get a perfect HJ is to get a AB.

That was not intended as and insult to Steve or the Adventurebilt. Heck I hope Steve know's that I'm his bigest supporter.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:36 pm

Yes, that was a joke. See the at the end.

WHEW! Yes, I did see the smiley, but you never know.

I think the only way you can get a perfect HJ is to get a AB.

O.K. Now you REALLY lost me there.

Will HJ send you a better hat after you've shown them proof of purchase of an AB or something? If so, maybe I need to get an AB after all!

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:45 pm

The problem I've read that Steve and Marc have with the HJ's is that they now go overboard when sewing the ribbon to the hat. When the hat is disassembled, wetted, then pulled over the block, the brim tears off the hat, as the needle holes in the felt have perforated the hat felt.

They just didn't want to take the chance of taking someones rabbit fur felt HJ and tearing the brim off in the reblock process.

Regards! Michaelson

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:32 pm

michaelson, I think you hit the nail on the head.

agent 5

Quote:
I think the only way you can get a perfect HJ is to get a AB.

O.K. Now you REALLY lost me there. Will HJ send you a better hat after you've shown them proof of purchase of an AB or something? If so, maybe I need to get an AB after all!

no, no thats not what I'm saying. the perfect "raider's Indy Fedora"
making a joke of the title the perfect HJ.

.......and yes maybe you should get a Adventurebilt, it is after all ( fantastic) better than it looks in pics.

Antone · Post by **Antone** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:38 pm

The main hitch to this idea is that I really doubt HJ would be willing to send an unassembled hat out. If anyone wants to take a crack at it they're welcome to do so, but I'd bet my Akubra that I already know what the response would be. Companies tend to be more defensive about their brand name than anything else, and I don't think we'll ever see them sending out unattached linings for fear that some unscrupulous person will do something crazy, like sew it into an AB or something

I think we'll see that the day that Steve offers to put an AB lining in an HJ...

In any case, before trying something that drastic, I think it would make more sense to see if we can get access to the new HJs in an open-crown form and see what they look like with an accurate bash in them. For me the jury is still out on the new block shape, and whether it's an improvement or not...

Antone

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:40 pm

@ Mark: Right you are ol' friend (again). That's the reason plain and simply. I've handled a ca. '93 HJ once and it was clearly visible, that the sweatband was put in with the help of a sewing machine. No problem at all, as that is what Akubra is doing as well and I'd reblock an Akubra any day of the week. But on this ca. '93 HJ, the stitches were longer, just like what Akubra is doing as well. So the felt didn't have that "toilett paper line" (no pun intended, I just don't know how to visualize better).

However the last modern HJ that I inspected a couple of weeks ago, had ca. 1-2mm short stitches and that on a felt that isn't too dense to start with. So by stressing the felt further in that area by pulling a (slightly) tapered hat over an un-tapered block, chances a tremendous to rip of the brim from the crown.

I clearly understand the fascination on the HJ name and take no offense in somebody picking an HJ over an AB or AB Deluxe, simply because some are after that particular brand, rather then a particular quality. That's fine with me and I've had some e-mails inquiring about my personal opinion on the current HJ's over the years. Only thing I advise on those occasions is, stay patient and get a vintage one, from back then when HJ knew how to make hats. Again, no pun intended - I really don't want to bad mouth HJ. It is just my opinion - based on years of experience, if you want - that you cannot get a hat from HJ like they made 'em 20 years ago and therefore - if you want one - try and find an older version.

Regards,

Marc

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 3:18 pm

no, no thats not what I'm saying. the perfect "raider's Indy Fedora"
making a joke of the title the perfect HJ.

.......and yes maybe you should get a Adventurebilt, it is after all ( fantastic) better than it looks in pics.

WHEW, again! If I didn't have a couple of Optimo's then the AB would be the next obvious choice. I've seen them in person so I know firsthand what goes into them.

I really don't want to bad mouth HJ. It is just my opinion - based on years of experience, if you want - that you cannot get a hat from HJ like they made 'em 20 years ago

I don't see that as badmouthing at all, just telling it how it seriously is. I think that should be the motto of this whole board. It'd save alot of people alot of cash and heart/headache. We all know that in the world of Fedora's, only a handful of people in the world make them like they used to in every aspect. Sadly, I think that vintage ethic has disappeared from most consumer goods and customer service nowadays.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 3:22 pm

agent5 wrote: Sadly, I think that vintage ethic has disappeared from most consumer goods and customer service nowadays.

AMEN brother, and amen.

Regards! Michaelson

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:36 pm

agent5 wrote:
If your gonna spend that much money why not get an AB or AB Deluxe?
Ummm...maybe cuz you want an HJ and not any other hat? Could that be it?

You're absolutely right Agent5. Thats a point that didn't really cross my mind. If you want an HJ for its name and to put on a shelf then all you need is for HJ to improve the block. Perhaps they've done that, but its hard to say. I made my comment based on the assumption that the person wanted an Indy fedora to wear. When it comes to that, there are much better options around.

IndianaJames · Post by **IndianaJames** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 5:25 pm

Once again, this is not a quality issue. As already pointed out several times above, we already know and agree that the AB's are of better quality. Some people collect things for other reasons.

Kind of like Wells Lamonts 1123 wouldnt you say agent 5....

I J

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 5:31 pm

Whew, I missed most of these!! In all fairness to the HJ line, I have seen several different felts from them over the years. Two of those felts I would not chance to reblock again. I tore the brims off of both of them due to the low grade rabbit felt of those particular hats. The last one was the HJ that Todd has been getting, before this new HJ came out. Hey, I like the name too, and bought one of these hats from Todd, just to have one. But I discovered the felt on these, while nice and soft was not strong enough to hold up to a reblock due to the perforated line left by the sewing machine stitches. It cost me the price of an HJ to replace the hat, and I could not afford to do that anymore!! So, no HJ reblocks. This new one may be better felt, as it looks to be so, going by the pics. The blocks that Marc and I use have less taper than the HJ block, and the amount of pressure needed to conform the HJ block shape to our block is enough to separate the crown from the brim. I am not experienced enough in the machine made hats to know if perhaps they are using the wrong length of stitch in attaching the sweats, or if the felt is just poor quality and not strong enough to live with the perforated line that is practically at the brim break.(another weak area due to the 90 degree bend) I just wanted folks to know that reblocking HJs is something I would love to do, but just can't afford to do so, even if only one in ten ripped on me.

My take on the efforts of HJ is that there is not a hatter in the bunch. I just have this vision of a bunch of newly graduated college guys, well schooled in busniness, but knowing nothing of hats, and certainly not the essential nuances that make the Raiders fedora unique. Heck, they need to reach out to some of us if they are really interested in replicating what they used to make and sell. The fact of the matter is, there is a nice market out there for an accurate HJ Raiders fedora, made from a soft and high quality rabbit felt. Think a 100 gram Portugal felt body, with .4 degrees of stiffener, find that barrel shaped Raiders block, reproduce the 5 pointed burgundy crest, or the earlier vintage HJ crest, and get the same ribbon that I am using, that they used to use, and finally, look at pics of the Raiders bow and replicate it. This would still be a factory made hat, but they would sell tons of them. I would order one. How hard can that be?? I mean, Marc and I have gone to great measure to replicate "the hat" in superiour quality parts and felt. Why can't they just supply a good and accurate factory made hat in good rabbit felt? I just do not understand it at all. Fedora

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:51 am

However, there are members of this board who have bought both the Herbert Johnson fedora, and the Adventurebilt. The reasoning behind their purchase was they bought the HJ simply because it is the hat that was used in the movies. I think it was Dakota Ellison that I am thinking of who did this. Did Bufflehead do it, too? I can't remember. Or was it Jess? Shucks. One of 'em did it!
_________________

I do have both hats. I have a few HJs, as a matter of fact. The HJ I bought from Todd's Costumes last year has been the best. It came unbashed and without the brim cut, so I did it all myself. It's the closest to the Raiders hat that I have, along with the AB. Not long ago I aquired an HJ trilby with the Old Burlington liner and sweatband. I have considered transfering them to the HJ Raiders hat to make it more authentic, but haven't yet because I've done it before and it's quite a chore. (hats off to Steve and Marc, who know this)

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:09 am

Not counting the HJ from Todd's, how many of your Herbie J's are vintage, Dakota?

G-MANN · Post by **G-MANN** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:19 am

Does anybody know the quality of the Fedoras that Todd is currently selling?

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:40 am

The only truly vintage HJ I have is a brown derby. Fedora has a matching homburg. These are from the old 38 Bond Street store, which they moved out of in 1965. My shaved Poet is from 1972, but I wouldn't call it vintage. I have one bought from Swales in 1992 that was supposedly left over from a batch Lucasfilms ordered for Last Crusade, but never picked up. I have it shaped LC style, of course.

Rusty Jones · Post by **Rusty Jones** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:09 pm

I think, as people have stated, it somewhat boils down to: Will you sacrifice quality for name HJ...

here's my take on that... I think HJ is a fine hatter, but they are out to sell hats... they may be out to sell quality hats... but they're out to sell hats

Adventurebilt, creates hats for money, yes, but also as a passion... (I'm pretty sure) furthermore... I think the creators of the movie used a HJ.... but INDY would wear an AB... hypothetically, if ABs came first, I would say that they picked and HJ to act like an AB, not the otherway around... Adventurebilts are built for adventure, hence the name, HJ are just kinda ordinary hats nowadays, but that's just my take on the issue...

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:05 pm

Dakota, that is one of the best lookign HJ's I've seen!

The top dent looks super deep too!

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:43 pm

do have both hats. I have a few HJs, as a matter of fact. The HJ I bought from Todd's Costumes last year has been the bes

I agree Dakota. The trouble with mine, and others that I have heard about and seen, is many times you would receive the new hat with the left side already tapered to the point that you could not pull off the Raiders look. I attributed this to the felt quality(although I liked the softness of the felt with little stiffener)

In my opinion, the felt used for Todd's HJs was really close to the original in pliability and softness, unlike most of the HJs sold in the 90s that were a stiffer, non dress felt. The quality just stunk.

The HJ vs AB comparison kinda bothers me at times, as they are different animals. The comparison is unfair, really. My hats are quite a few steps above the HJs in quality. I mean, sure comparisons will be made, and are made, but if you compare the HJ qualitywise to my hats, Optimos, Art's hats, GH's hats, it is a odious thing, because the HJ will never be in the same class as these other hats. What the HJ has going for it is the name, and that is enough for most folks. I own one new HJ and several vintage ones. I will own one of these new HJs as well. I love hats. I collect hats. I love HJs. But, my love for hats extends beyond the HJ brand. I appreciate fine, well made, quality hats. I love the way vintage hats were made, and how they were put together. For folks like me, we will own an HJ, but we also want a better quality hat.

I think HJ should be flattered that a few guys loved that Raiders fedora so much, that we copied it, moved the quality up expoentially, and helped keep the hullabaloo alive so they could see an advantage in trying to give the fans a better hat. It seems they are indeed giving it a go, and this is a great thing.

Adventurebilt, creates hats for money, yes, but also as a passion... (I'm pretty sure) furthermore...

If the money was the issue, I would stop today!!!!It is a passion, a hobby, an obsession. Marc has the same character flaw as well.

Fedora

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:01 pm

I just got in a couple of pics of Pagey's newest hat, the last hat I made for him. If the new HJ block can pull this look off, especially the side view, they have a winner, IMHO.

If that first pic is not a dead ringer for the pr photo of Indy and Belloq facing off in the bar, I will eat my hat.

Wait, no, I have eat enough already.

I still think Marc and I are on the right track, and HJ still has a way to go to catch up. Fedora

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:58 pm

I still think Marc and I are on the right track, and HJ still has a way to go to catch up. Fedora

Yes i would agree to that.

The real Henry · Post by **The real Henry** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:12 pm

exactly my thoughts!

And the whole story is too funny to believe, I mean they have to learn to make their own hats again!

VP · Post by VP » Sat Jan 28, 2006 4:11 am

Fedora wrote:

Ugh, Photoshop lens flare. Since I first checked it out I've been seeing them everywhere.

Post by **Michaelson** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:14 am

That's an orb, VP. Have you no respect for a dead spirit wanting to float through a photo?

Regards! Michaelson

prairiejones · Post by **prairiejones** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:46 pm

Pagey sure knows how to set up a picture. That one is great. I owe so much to him when it comes to styling a hat, and photographing it.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:43 pm

Michaelson wrote

That's an orb...

Thanks!!! Just when I needed it!

Regards,

Marc

VP · Post by VP » Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:28 am

Michaelson wrote:Have you no respect for a dead spirit wanting to float through a photo?

No.

The perfect Herbert Johnson?

The perfect Herbert Johnson?

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